Legend of the Stone Maps

[DiggerGal]

oroblanco,

Janie Tumlinson couldn't possibly have.

Alice Janie Tumlinson did not say she saw Travis Tumlinson carve the stone maps. There is a huge difference between someone saying, " Oh Yes, oroblanco ate the last piece of pizza" and, ..... Oh Yes, I saw oroblanco eat the last piece of pizza."

Janie Tumlinson would not even have been born in 1949 when the Stone Maps were allegedly carved so there is no way she possibly could have known her father carved them. She may have assumed he carved them but once again we are back to someones opinion.
I knew Larry Webb. No need for that source.

DiggerGal,

Touche' LOL

Or, Travis could have told Janie that he carved the stones. After all, if he didn't, he would want his daughter to continue the search.

 

[Oroblanco]

oroblanco,

Janie Tumlinson couldn't possibly have.

Alice Janie Tumlinson did not say she saw Travis Tumlinson carve the stone maps. There is a huge difference between someone saying, " Oh Yes, oroblanco ate the last piece of pizza" and, ..... Oh Yes, I saw oroblanco eat the last piece of pizza."

Janie Tumlinson would not even have been born in 1949 when the Stone Maps were allegedly carved so there is no way she possibly could have known her father carved them. She may have assumed he carved them but once again we are back to someones opinion.
I knew Larry Webb. No need for that source.

You are splitting hairs. Garry stated that he was informed by family members that Travis had carved the maps. Period. Did they see him carve them? I don't know, I was not there. Were you?

To all;
To me, and this is just a personal opinion (addressed to everyone reading this) it does not really matter whether Travis carved them or Don Pedro de Gonzalez did it, really I would think that a PATTERN was used. The only reason I have not yet carved our front door (have an ordinary steel door there for now) is that I have not found the pattern we want. It is much more difficult to carve something entirely by freehand, than to use a pattern. I would think that with a treasure map carving, a pattern would be a huge help - in other words, I strongly suspect that the stone maps are a copy of one (or more) treasure maps that were NOT on stone but cloth, or parchment, leather, wood etc. The state of AZ had the stone maps classed as "curiosities" for years, and would make great decorative items for a treasure hunter's home. In fact several treasure hunters own copies of the stone maps and are using them exactly that way, as decorations. However where did this map originate? And I am referring to the map itself, not the stone maps but the map used as a pattern to create the stone maps. Or was it all just a work of imaginative art by Travis, or whomever the "real" artist was? Bottom line there really are other treasure maps, which seem to be very similar to the stone maps and may well predate them. Plus there were at one time, a set of cloth maps that were described as "identical" although of course for some people, the fact that a flat 2D map cannot be identical with a 3D physical map, for most purposes a flat map can convey the necessary information for the intended user. I wonder if those cloth maps were not the pattern used to create the stone maps?

 

[somehiker]

More a cabin/shack than a house. A sandstone chimney a great target for visiting treasure hunters to tag. Or a resident.
Who knows back then, a too windy day,empty bottles, perhaps no radio or t.v. a guy might get ambitious and carve walls before climbing them.
Retired judge alias Robert Traver was rumored to have had guests sign empty bottles to be displayed at his cabin.
Symbols of passion and or memory maybe. Like near the water there.
View attachment 1184581

Send a kid up a ladder with a hammer and chisel to re-point ( where loose mortar is removed and joints repaired ) a chimney, and what do you expect ?
He gets bored with the task and winds up carving pictures of a car,a pistol, and a bicycle...to which he adds a self portrait and his name.
Yup....it's a "treasure map" alright. Good thing my kids only had crayons. Otherwise, I would have had to re-plaster most of the walls in the house.

 

[Old]

Quote "The short version of the story is that we were told by the family members with whom we spoke, that Travis Tumlinson carved the stone maps".

As compelling as that statement sounds, factually it is not true. No one in the Tumlinson family, not daughter Janie, not cousin Joe or brother Ken ever personally said they saw Travis Tumlinson carve the Peralta Stone Maps. Not one of them.

You have to make the distinction between chimney carvings and the actual Peralta Stone Maps. If you use the statements Travis carved the chimney and lump the Stone Maps in as well you are stating a falsehood. The Tumlinson family said he carved the chimney, but no one said they saw him carve the Stone Maps. In fact what they did say was cousin Joe was the only person who MAY have seen Travis carve the Stone Maps at Travis mothers house but cousin Joe never said he did. With no eye witness we have only opinion.

I know that falsehood has been spread far and wide and believed by many but it just isn't true.

Matthew

Mr. Roberts, that's a fairly hard line statement. You sure you don't want to hedge on that some? You may have the evidence to back it up. And; if you do I sure would like to see it. Personally, I'd like the PSM to be genuine. But they are up against a mountain of evidence which leans otherwise.

I have no doubt Mr. Mitchell acted in good faith and thought he was purchasing genuine artifacts. I don't doubt that for a moment. There is talk of testing during his ownership, but nothing in the public domain to back that up. We even have a name but there is no substance to gauge. If you have it now would be a good time to bring it forward.

For those leaning toward a more modern creation there is at least two testing bodies whose results are in the public domain and are backed up by later personal statements. If we are to believe this is attributed to a "switch" having been made, there is still some "splaining" to be done on just how that happened. I'm sure there are donors, patrons and insurance underwriters that would be most interested in that explanation. That said; I tend to agree with you that the stones pictured in the early photograph and the ones on display or two different animals.

There are statements, to about half dozen different researchers, from the near and more distant Tumlinson family, multiple family members, that THE FAMILY does not consider the "rocks" ancient artifacts but a creation of Travis' making. Backed by their statements __________ saw him carving them in ___________ back yard handed down from first generation to current generation. To us, this is a puzzle and a mystery to be solved. To them it is a matter of family integrity. Not a matter they would, I suspect, wish to have dragged through the mud by a false statement of their telling.

We have "one" statement attributed to the daughter that Travis "was not perpetuating a hoax". That's supposed to translate into a retraction of her earlier and a more recent accounts that the "rocks" were a creation of her father's making. Frankly, I don't have a problem that both of those statements attributed to the daughter are accurate. They each have a different meaning and come from a different thought pattern. One, in my opinion, does not negate the other.

On a side note, please don't pass our quest for truth off in we are confusing chimney carvings with the "actual" Peralta Stone Maps. We didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Give us a little more credit than that. The chimney carvings are one piece or evidence, a compelling one, but one piece in a long line of evidence to be weighed. Its the piece that gives Travis a method. Remember its Motive, Method and Opportunity.

 

[DiggerGal]

You are splitting hairs. Garry stated that he was informed by family members that Travis had carved the maps. Period. Did they see him carve them? I don't know, I was not there. Were you?

To all;
To me, and this is just a personal opinion (addressed to everyone reading this) it does not really matter whether Travis carved them or Don Pedro de Gonzalez did it, really I would think that a PATTERN was used. The only reason I have not yet carved our front door (have an ordinary steel door there for now) is that I have not found the pattern we want. It is much more difficult to carve something entirely by freehand, than to use a pattern. I would think that with a treasure map carving, a pattern would be a huge help - in other words, I strongly suspect that the stone maps are a copy of one (or more) treasure maps that were NOT on stone but cloth, or parchment, leather, wood etc. The state of AZ had the stone maps classed as "curiosities" for years, and would make great decorative items for a treasure hunter's home. In fact several treasure hunters own copies of the stone maps and are using them exactly that way, as decorations. However where did this map originate? And I am referring to the map itself, not the stone maps but the map used as a pattern to create the stone maps. Or was it all just a work of imaginative art by Travis, or whomever the "real" artist was? Bottom line there really are other treasure maps, which seem to be very similar to the stone maps and may well predate them. Plus there were at one time, a set of cloth maps that were described as "identical" although of course for some people, the fact that a flat 2D map cannot be identical with a 3D physical map, for most purposes a flat map can convey the necessary information for the intended user. I wonder if those cloth maps were not the pattern used to create the stone maps?

I can agree that it may have come from another source. A picture of a picture of sorts. We shall wait and see just what may be revealed at the proper time.

 

[somehiker]

Did Travis or Robert ever refer to the stones as "Peralta Stone Maps" ?

 

[releventchair]

A pattern used perhaps. If being considered actual maps then much was required for them to be usable.
With required time to create them, and relying on memory alone for distance and features the risk of missing an item had to exist.
Portability of stones in the hands of a cartographer trying to make them in route reduces odds of stone being original maps without frequent stops.
Experience required to have a balance in laying out available surface with a scale. Not as much a golden means proportion but accuracy of distance, extending in this case to multiple maps unless explanatory symbols represent map legends including scale, common to the reader.

 

[Oroblanco]

Did Travis or Robert ever refer to the stones as "Peralta Stone Maps" ?

Well, the very first published account on the stone maps, has repeated references to the Peraltas.

He studied them, and decided they had been made by the Peraltas as maps of their mines.

<LIFE mag, June 1964, pp91

>

It is only a small step to then say Peralta stone maps.

 

[somehiker]

Well, the very first published account on the stone maps, has repeated references to the Peraltas.


<LIFE mag, June 1964, pp91

>

It is only a small step to then say Peralta stone maps.

I guess my question was misunderstood....

Did Travis or Robert ever refer to the stones as "Peralta Stone Maps" ?

What I want to see is a first hand declaration, preferably in their own writing, that either man believed the stones were a "Peralta" map.
Surely something must exist to that effect.

Insofar as the Life Magazine article reads:

No step is required to say that Travis found them in 1956, rather than making them himself.
Also that he was a police officer who quit his job so that he could search.

Then in 1956 a vacationing Oregon policeman found a stone map. Nearby he found two others.
He studied them, and decided they had been made by the Peraltas as maps of their mines.
Quitting his job, he began to search.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=W0EEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[somehiker]

The "X" and smaller hole are artifacts in the gas station pic. I have also posted this elsewhere, but here is an animated gif I made of the two stones superimposed on top of one another. It is not perfectly exact, because I had to reorient the stone from the bumper pic, because the perspectives of the two stones is different.

View attachment 1182592

You have to remember that when the pic was supposedly taken, the grooves still had dirt and little roots in them.

Mike

Hi Mike:

According to Mitchell, in "Superstition Treasures", Weavers Needle was where Travis began his own search, hiking in from First Water.
Not surprising, considering how WN is mentioned in so many of the stories pertaining to the LDM and other legends (including the Jesuit treasure stories).
The known accounts of Travis' search activities in the Sups tell us that he was not much further ahead by having the stones than others who were working with the profusion of "Waltz/Peralta/Gonzalas etc" maps and legends associated with them. He struggled to understand them, as recounted by those few he happened to share the stones and his ideas about their meaning. But he did focus on that big hole didn't he, when pondering a solution in conversation with at least one friend.
Why do you think he was focused on that hole, rather than the heart ?

Regards:SH.

 

[Not Peralta]

You are splitting hairs. Garry stated that he was informed by family members that Travis had carved the maps. Period. Did they see him carve them? I don't know, I was not there. Were you?

To all;
To me, and this is just a personal opinion (addressed to everyone reading this) it does not really matter whether Travis carved them or Don Pedro de Gonzalez did it, really I would think that a PATTERN was used. The only reason I have not yet carved our front door (have an ordinary steel door there for now) is that I have not found the pattern we want. It is much more difficult to carve something entirely by freehand, than to use a pattern. I would think that with a treasure map carving, a pattern would be a huge help - in other words, I strongly suspect that the stone maps are a copy of one (or more) treasure maps that were NOT on stone but cloth, or parchment, leather, wood etc. The state of AZ had the stone maps classed as "curiosities" for years, and would make great decorative items for a treasure hunter's home. In fact several treasure hunters own copies of the stone maps and are using them exactly that way, as decorations. However where did this map originate? And I am referring to the map itself, not the stone maps but the map used as a pattern to create the stone maps. Or was it all just a work of imaginative art by Travis, or whomever the "real" artist was? Bottom line there really are other treasure maps, which seem to be very similar to the stone maps and may well predate them. Plus there were at one time, a set of cloth maps that were described as "identical" although of course for some people, the fact that a flat 2D map cannot be identical with a 3D physical map, for most purposes a flat map can convey the necessary information for the intended user. I wonder if those cloth maps were not the pattern used to create the stone maps?

Oroblanco Amigo,
This is just my opinion, I believe you are absolutely correct in your statement,I myself have expressed the same in numerous post,I think the original map used to create the stone tablets has already been posted on TN, there are several key symbols to point this out,but, that's just my opinion, and no,there is nothing to indicate the peralta's had anything at all to do with the stone tablets,thats just wish full thinking on some ones story or theory. there's also like I have said many times over,the tablets make no mention of the following, treasure,gold,siver,or peralta's,. maps are usually made to guide someone on a quest to a destination for a reason,there is usually a beginning and an ending trail to be followed,In the case of the stone tablet map I think when the original was copied there were certain things left out,and I think whoever created the stone maps for whatever reason was not given all the info at the time concerning the real map,there for the creator of the tablets would consider them real.and think they had all the correct Info.
.NP

 

[gollum]

Hey Buddy,

That is a very good question. Maybe because he thought he could ID Weaver's Needle on the Stone Maps better than any other place shown on them. Those two rounded lumps that sit on top of the Big Hole look A LOT like the opposite side of this pic of Weaver's Needle.



If you can zero in on one spot, then why try to figure the whole thing out first? If you are certain that the lines above the big hole stand for Weaver's Needle, then why not start there, and see what that big hole means? If you can guess one spot on the maps correctly, then you can reverse engineer the rest of the maps from that known place.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Hey Buddy,

That is a very good question. Maybe because he thought he could ID Weaver's Needle on the Stone Maps better than any other place shown on them. Those two rounded lumps that sit on top of the Big Hole look A LOT like the opposite side of this pic of Weaver's Needle.

View attachment 1185273

If you can zero in on one spot, then why try to figure the whole thing out first? If you are certain that the lines above the big hole stand for Weaver's Needle, then why not start there, and see what that big hole means? If you can guess one spot on the maps correctly, then you can reverse engineer the rest of the maps from that known place.

Mike

Mike,

What you say about "reverse engineer" is totally correct, except that you are wrong about that hole being Weaver's Needle. The triangle slash is Weaver's Needle. If you start your reverse engineering from there, the Stone Maps will fall into place. If you don't, the same fate that befell Julia will be yours as well. The upper and lower maps must match the terrain.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Mike,

What you say about "reverse engineer" is totally correct, except that you are wrong about that hole being Weaver's Needle. The triangle slash is Weaver's Needle. If you start your reverse engineering from there, the Stone Maps will fall into place. If you don't, the same fate that befell Julia will be yours as well. The upper and lower maps must match the terrain.

Good luck,

Joe

cactusjumper,
I don't know if you are right or wrong about the "triangle slash". It would be hard to say with any certainty for the obvious reasons.
It doesn't appear on Mapper's paper map. How do you explain the differences if one is derived from the other?
BTW, Do you know the history of the paper map? We have seen it posted now several times without any explanation of its history.


Thank you!

View attachment 1185363
​

 

[cw0909]

dont know whats up with Challenge for Superstition Gold
it wont give me a reply box, found something take a look

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....ms/buscar/lg_115astonemaps50.jpg?m=1372399178


trick of the light i guess, look what happens when that above img
is rotated

rotated


enlarged


http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...hallenge-superstition-gold-8.html#post4606135

RC do look

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...hallenge-superstition-gold-8.html#post4606360

 

[cw0909]

maybe i have it figed out
when you look at Franks posted img it looks off to me
and when you rotate so to read words, still looks off
but when you rotate 180 it looks right, i think the img
was taken in this position, from the back of the case
or what ever it is in

the original orientation if you were to print from a negative


Franks posted img

turned to read

 

[Old]

CW that's amazing. Thank you.

Looks like Homar, Hal and others are right. My apologies for questioning you so hard. Time for me to make that eye appointment.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Lynda,

No apology necessary for me. Seems like the illusion is triggered because the brain expects shadows to be cast downwards.

Homar

 

[releventchair]

Coazon , all, I was wrong. Good thing I was not allowed to bet$.
At least it's not my eyes that deceived me but whats behind them ,wait a minute......
Good work CW. I see it!

 

[releventchair]

dont know whats up with Challenge for Superstition Gold
it wont give me a reply box,


Ya my post must have been the last straw for someone and thread is closed.
Let's see if I kill this one too....