MD = Looting

[rmptr]

Good to see you back, Kuger!

Good call! My 'mental set' has been whacked pretty hard and I'm stressed!
Not really sure what to do about it, but always looking for solutions.
That's why I enjoy talking with my friends here on Tnet!

I see and hear things on the news, and web sources, then compare them to my own daily experiences.
The folks here on Tnet, and a number of other sites discuss our views of the circumstances from a broader standpoint than a bubble.
WE, have quite a bit of trouble coming down the pike. IMO
Others have great hope and are so pleased that bho will bring change for them.

LoL! Sounds to me you're running 400 head, depending on forage, maybe 500.
My guess is you'd be able to recognize this photo I took the other day...

​

Thanks for the burger, Kuger, don't think it's not appreciated.
LA Times just ran nearly a page how we are losing fishermen.
It seems crabs are at a low, and the salmon run is shut down.
Not that I ever got to eat much salmon, or crabs, but it's part of our food supply, just as you are.
A commercial fisherman's association membership has dropped to 25% of what it was.
There are no young fishermen!

And I'll bet there are fewer young ranchers.
We know grain and row crops have gone over to agribusiness.


Best indications I can see is we're in for a global economic slump like never seen before.
The numbers are bigger, populations are larger, and global circumstance is all tied together.
I see a lot of hungry, jobless, and homeless people, turbulence, and possibly a period of chaos in our future.
How about you?

In days gone by, America had an agricultural base, where people such as yourself lived close to the land.
Times got a bit hard, they could still eat.

We changed to an industrial base, manufactured goods for the world, and grew to a magnificent empire like never seen before. People moved from country environments to th cities, where the factories were.
Over time, production was 'outsourced' and today, much of the manufacturing has gone elsewhere.
But our cities remain teeming with large masses of people.

I suspect those taxes you pay go more to support their needs than those of your own kin.
Taxation IS theft.

How do I feel when my property (wages) are stolen (taxes) from me?
Well, Kuger, of course I feel badly. They take too much, don't they!


Re-apportionment of wealth, they say.

Well, due to the compounding financial crash and loss of jobs, government is going to raise taxes even more upon those who are able to work in an effort to keep those great masses of people in the cities fed and sheltered.

There's no way it can work for very long. It's not possible. IMO

Well, here's what happened, not so far away, and not so long ago, near a large city.
A cattle truck overturned in Argentina and the locals were without sufficient food.

​

Kuger, I'm not talking about what might be OK.
Far from it.
I'm talking about immediate necessity.
An immediate necessity felt by perhaps millions of people who are presently residing in our very large American cities.

A city is little more than a desert, without the continuous, un-interrupted flow of consumable goods flowing in to it.
Stop the flow, and I figure about 3 weeks is all it would take for desperation to ensue. Give or take.

Certainly not for everyone, but a percentage.
Because the numbers are so big to begin with, any percentage counts for a very large group of people.

It is my opinion, those people driven by necessity are going to range out from the large metropolitan areas in search of what they urgently need.

Some scenarios I've considered would be they will not be squatters, but marauders.
Once again, by mere probability, a percentage of hostiles will be well equipped, and perhaps even organized.

As you have put it, "you think about that".

I should answer your direct questions, shouldn't I?

" what makes it O.K. for someone to take what is not theirs"
Morality changes by necessity. Ask the Donner Party.
"how would you feel if it were your families homestead that being pillaged??
Helpless. Just like I feel when gubment institutes another tax, or fee.

And herein lies the tie to treasure hunting and MD = Looting.

Here in the National Forest, within Kalifornia, we are taxed with an Adventure Pass to stop and PARK along certain roads through the outback. It's $35 a year.
About the same as a fishing license.
A hunting license is quite a bit more!
In spite of the 1872 Mining laws, there are dredging permits, for a fee, if it's even allowed. (Here, it's NOT!)

Ivan is such a nice sensible fellow. A MD hobbyist should certainly strive to keep the 'Code'.
On a recent trip to Idaho I was surprised to discover nearly every single mile along the hiway strung with 4 wire fence.
That's a loong way!
Everyone knows you should not pass a fence line, to MD, or anything else!
If land doesn't belong to you, it belongs to someone else.

BHO says he is going to bring change.
What do you think about that?

Best
rmptr

 

[rmptr]

a lot of folks with "big mega acre spreads" today have them due to robber baron grand folks types of the past, its true but that doesn't make stealing ok today any more than it was then.

Well Ivan, when it is discovered that the gubment system rewards those 'land barons' to the detriment of the general population, as it may seem Emperor Hank is doing today, perhaps it is time to correct the district of criminals, as out FF put it.

Re-shuffle the deck.

What do you think?

Best
rmptr

 

[Huck Mucus]

I can understand the effort of some to recast this issue as class warfare, but they are wrong. Many of these old farms and ranches are owned by the same people who will end up on that next grapes-of-wrath-wagon; not some land barron. But regardless, in the end, a thief is a thief. And it's that thief who should feel damn lucky when the farmer or rancher decides to call the sheriff instead of digging a hole and filling it, if you know what I mean. Hell, that old back-hoe can dig a big enough hole for an SUV.

As to public land, that land belongs to the public, and that means the stuff on it belongs to the public too, so IF (see the "IF") there are laws protecting it from looting, then those laws must be respected. You can't go into Yellowstone and shoot a bison, or into the Tombstone Graveyard and start digging, or National Forest and start logging, or Mesa Verde and start picking up arrow heads and pots, or the BLM and start mining commercially, or grazing your livestock: UNLESS you have a permit and do so in accordance with laws and regulations that protect the resource for the long term interest of the public. And the burden of knowing whether those laws exist is upon you.

Steeling from the public is no better than steeling from an individual. Some of this is our heritage as a nation and stands for ideals and principles that surpase self-interest, be that greed or legitimate hunger. And if anyone wants to know why, they should study the tragedy of the commons and what sets America apart from most nations on Earth.

Municiple and County governments are another matter. Like states, they have their own regulations, policies, ordinances, resolutuions and laws and many permit Metal Detecting, etc. The point here, just because no one is around doesn't mean it's okay to dig and loot.

But in the end, a thief is a thief and if they have no respect for the law, then why should farmer Brown, over behind that oak with a Winchester, have any respect for it?

You pay your property taxes to maintain laws which protect you from what will happen if class war-fare turns into real war. That knife cuts both ways: While the king may get the guillotine, you can bet a lot more peasants are gonna get whacked first. And, while it’s incumbent upon the king to keep that from happening, that’s no reason for peasants to start looting the farms of other peasants. That’s just going after Kulaks and the wellspring of Communism.

 

[kuger]

First off Rmptr,I apologize for getting hot under the collar,this is just a very sensitive button of mine.I think you are an intelligent man,we just come from different worlds and face different problems.It bothers me when someone brags about committing and defends one of my biggest problems.I face lawsuits from someone that chooses to fence jump and falls into one of the many mineshafts all over these hills(I too am in Calif.)Fence jumpers cut my fences,leave gates open,poach both wildlife and livestock,and dig the creek banks out looking for gold.I have even had dredges stole off of my own property.Last night I got a call from my cousin whom is out of work right now and is cutting wood to put food on his table,well he had several cord of wood cut waiting for the ground to dry out a little so he didnt tear up the field getting it out,he found yesterday that somebody had cut the lock and stole every piece!I could go on and on and I realize it is probably going to get a lot worse.I practice a very strong wildlife management plan on our properties as well and dont even have a problem with somebody poaching a deer if they truly need to,to eat.Thank you for your words of appreciation it is good to know that not everybody realizes beef doesnt come from Mcdonalds!There has always been bumps in the road on the agriculture front but we ar presently faced with unprecedented issues that I do not see an end to.The list is long but just a couple......the good ole voters of Calif. chose to ban the leghold trap in 1998,which hamstrung me to be able protect my livestock from predators,fuel prices went up so in turn hay did too,the scare of the "Mad cow disease",we lost our lease on Forest Circus ground which was our summer range for over sixty years the list goes on and on.Pretty good calcs on my numbers but as the old saying goes dont ever ask a rancher how many cows hes runnin' Any way I just lost my train of thought so......I guess I will be hiding my own Easter eggs this year too More later God bless

 

[rmptr]

Kuger, I thought it would be wise if I came back to post clearly that my opinions and presentation thereof are in NO WAY representative of Tnet, any other members, or the general position or tone of participation on Tnet.

Empty barrel makes the most noise, right?

HM, really don't care for ur monniker, but that's a right fine piece of ritin there...

You attempt to oversimplify.

I can recall tale of a number of fellers with a price on their heads as traitors to the Crown.
King George would have had them all swingin if he could have prevailed.
Need I tell you, he was unable to overcome the efforts of an actually rather small percentage of the colonists who were, in fact, loyal and law abiding.

Guess we shouldn't call upon you for a Tea Party?

 

[kuger]

Well I really dont know what you are trying to say....maybe I am simple,I am proud of who I am (which you know very little)and I am sorry I bored you in my "attempt",to tell you a little bit about the other side.Imho I feel that you are a little long winded and tend to wander off topic your self.

 

[rmptr]

Sry, we crossed posts...
Yup, I get rapped up in long stories!
must be the indian blood in me.

 

[Huck Mucus]

rmptr:
It's those same fellers who championed "enlightened self interest", and the law, and private property rights, what had that tea party yer talking about; A nation of laws, that is. You want to rebel? Yer rebellin' agin them. Ask Johnny Reb; He'll tell you all about it. If you come on my property you won't be equating me with the king, unless it's King's patent (circa 1866).

 

[rmptr]

Yes.
Lincoln was the worst.
Should've kept the fed in DC.
Too late now!

OK OK!
I just gotta come back to blather more about proppity rights.
Buckminster Fuller I ain't!

Best
rmptr

 

[Huck Mucus]

Yeah, he wasn't too keen on property rights, especially when other folks was considered property. Ah well, my side writes the history: Lincoln was the best.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Good Replies!

I know that this is a subject that is close to everyone's heart--for many different reasons. Questions of Ethics. Legality. Public Perception.


I think it's good that we have such a great thread on here, and I'm glad that everyone is keeping their cool so that such an important dialogue can remain posted on this forum.


Best Wishes,



Buckleboy

 

[rmptr]

Well Thanks for noticing, BB.

Yes, we are all very cool dudes.

​

 

[crazyjarhead]

You can put a bad spin on anything.

I second that motion

 

[Lowbatts]

Sitting in the Doc's office the other day gave me the occasion to read the article from NG on looting in Gaza inspiring this string of wandering mental meat puppetry. (Mental meat puppetry follows, not preceeds this post, you are all right of course)

Has anyone seen the news lately? How do the locals there treat the land, let alone each other? Seems everything not being dug is being BLOWN out of the ground these days. I am also of the mindset that the movement to demonize md'ing at large is akin to the global warming movement. Make a crisis out of some thing that you cannot or should not effect change upon.

Get your behind on a designated trail and stay there if you like that mindset. We are not pioneers, and we should all follow our appointed stations, right? I don't care how many examples of "bad md'ers" you throw at me. You don't belong here anymore than those who say they support the 2nd amendment but believe in "sensible gun control" as defined by the same globalists behind the notions of md'ers as looters and blanket environmental policies.

Got more than a few nice old relics at the local museum hereabouts, nothing mercenary about it. Early funerary items from a former graveyard-turned schoolyard, civil war relics, etc. Might have brought a few hundred on E-bay, probably more. But I thought it'd be nice to keep 'em here in town. My call. One of you guys finds a nice old rare button from a uniform worn long ago and sells it for a few bucks? Cool.

Had an actual confrontation once with some CW reenactors who declared me a grave robber for merely mentioninig that I'd dug a few old buttons and such. Had to let them know they were the grave robbers, feeding their own need for meaning on the graves of those who walked up the escarpments at Fredricksburg, or making a last stand at Vicksburg. That was my Great great great grandpa, making Sherman bow ties and burning cotton bales. That was his life, not mine or anyone I know. What he left in the ground he no longer needs and if you find some of it, you're welcome to it. With exception of course to his grave.

Does it need to get more complicated?

 

[Huck Mucus]

Does it need to get more complicated?

No, it doesn't need to get more complicated than that.

No sense complicating it with irrelevent stuff about the facts of global warming, or the fact that the NRA would be better off sticking to the Second Amendment instead of worrying about ATVs, Wilderness Study Areas and other stuff that has nothing to do with the right to keep and bear arms. Every one likes to drag their irrelevent stuff in and dilute the power of their argument the same way thieves dilute the good name of 99% of MDers.

But IF it belongs to someone else by law, be that an individual, a corporation or a government, and you take it without permission, then you are a thief and a criminal and you should suffer for it. Does it need to get more complicated?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/cnnf/rec/heritage/metal_detectors.html

i believe there is separate thought on this issue based on regional values. only 14or 15% of the land in arizona is private property, the rest is military reservations, 30 some indian reservations, state land, BLM...you are not allowed to dig.
belief that you have the god given right to disturb historic/prehistoric sites borders on delusion. several years ago,two sheriff deputies thought they could dig pottery, because they were the law...hefty fines, jail, and loss of jobs, taught them different.
every one learns at their own pace.

 

[Huck Mucus]

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/cnnf/rec/heritage/metal_detectors.html

Interesting post. Thanks.

An a similar note, I'm surrounded by miles of BLM in every direction (Bureau of Land Management, U.S. Department of the Interior) and I have a half mile frontage on a whitewater river with gold. Up here it is perfectly legal to shoot nuggets and pan and engage in other "recreational" pursuit of gold on the public lands that are open and unclaimed (i.e. not reserved by statute and which don't have a valid mining claim filed on them).

What you can't do it used a big dredge, engage in hard rock mining (I'm not certain what the criteria or break-point is) or other commercial-level pursuit of minerals without going through the process (1872 Mining Act).

The government is pretty good about telling people good spots to try their hand. But you can't go into the old "abandoned" (ha ha, look at the land office and you will find they are NOT abandoned) mining claims and start stealing antiques and such. Even on the public lands, the ghost towns and such are historical artifacts and they are to be left in place.

Each jurisdiction has it's own criteria and your average MDer can usually find plenty of legal things to do if they just ask. It's not like the world is lined up against them. But that could change with some bad apples.

 

[Lowbatts]

As I suggested, hand wringing not my problem. I'm still waiting for those who dig illegally to chime in. As far as those who dig in a way that some want to further define as illegal, I'm frettin' that day.

Ancillary arguments welcome I'm sure, but there is the fact that there are global concerns driving a lot what is being done to us by our government. I did not see a lot of posts in the thread directly addressing the issues in the NG article about Gaza, instead they were diluted by arguments all over the place about how it affects our hobby here.

Wonder why most would take the looting of old things in Gaza as representative of issues affecting our hobby here? Perhaps because we know this article does not simply concern itself with "loss" of old stuff from Gaza but again, what some want to do to stop that same sort of "loss" here. Definition of "loss" has become vague.

Back to the article now, maybe the NG folk should rethink their position and thank those looters that have taken steps to preserve some items that would otherwise be rolled over by artillery and armor. Of course in our totally static social and geopolitical reality nothing will ever happen to threaten those areas moreso that some guy with a metal detector.

 

[Huck Mucus]

The article I was more concerned about was the one I quoted from and described, above, in my initial post. That man was advocating illegal action.

Saving something from definate destruction by tanks is one thing, but removing an artifact from it's historical context is another. As an amateur paleontologist, I know full well how guys like me can completely ruin the value of a site by digging up a prehistoric bison skull and removing it from the specific context in which is was found. It becomes a "cool curiosity" for the wall or e-bay, but has no more scientific value at all. Much crucial information about *all of our* pasts has been lost in Egypt, Mesa Verde and a thousand other places by people who thought "Hey, if I didn't get it, it was just gonna rot and then nobody gets it." In the end, it's still stealing.

It's just like the post-invasion looting in Iraq from all the museums: Common thieves stealing from thier own country and selling it to some rich guy in America or Europe who leaves it on his den wall. I suppose the thief could say he was saving it from other looters or the tanks. That's like me taking the Declaration of Independance if there was an Earth quake and mass panic in D.C. and then selling it to some guy in France.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Md is looting,its only a problem when the finds are really good and everyone wants them.... Wheat pennies - no problem...... Inca Gold -big problems ............