MD = Looting

[Lowbatts]

Aw heck Huck, my knowing of things contextual is limited to experience, not academics. Have had a few professors who go on digs then come back with more knowledge of the site and times they were looking into. But then again, that thirteen thousandth Roman bronze coin is not likely to add great detail to the site. So I don't feel bad about the three my tnet pal sent me from his numerous digs in the UK. He'd get 50 in a day. I am dumbfounded when someone can tell me which Roman family lost a hoard that has been recovered. Very cool.

But while casually detecting an area on the south end of my town, I found a collection of items all dated to a very brief period in the early 1840's and left behind by someone who spent at least one season on that spot. Here in Northern Illinois on this side of the Indian Boundary, that is the beginning of "colonization" and that spot itself represented a unique opportunity to see how things were. Of course the area dig get graded and developed which was the reason for my interest in hitting ti at the time. There was no official interest or any other academic interest in the area and it was a chance discovery but based on my understanding of the trails into the area at during that period.

I would find it hard to live near BLM land down there, those places where people have collected pottery shards forever. Not that I would do that, I wouldn't understanding it's the law, but not even picking one up to look at kind of makes we wonder. Does it mess with context that I picked it up? I 'spose but among littered ground it makes me wonder. We've been farming old native sites up here for 150 years at least. Been paving over many more since then and more recently.

Just down the road from me there was a house being built last spring and several skeletons were found, all native and old. The archaeologists who ventured out to investigate made some determinations, removed as much as they found and the house went in. Across the street from there about half a mile back on the edge of a creek I found an entry into the early plats from this area noting "27 ancient mounds" in about a 10 acre site. None are visible and that small footnote is our only record of it's existence. Early farmers apparently flattened them mounds and farmed it out. Didn't tell the academic folks who checked out the house site about that, didn't see a need, no context I'spose. Wonder how many skeletons were removed from them mounds then taken over to the area of that house site and buried there, it would have been pasture at that time if anything.

It's not the historical context, the knowledge of a site or the archeologist or academic I disrespect, it's the potential of law in a ever-creeping, morally and logically misguided growth. Cancerous. That don't mean I break the law. But I don't have to like it.

 

[Huck Mucus]

It's only looting, and it's only a problem when it's illegal.

There is plenty of legal activity out there. The problem is those who don't want to search for it.

I can see I might be out-numbered here, and I've spoke my piece, everyone knows where I stand, so I'm just gonna bow on out of this. I just hope that MDers can keep their rep clean enough that everyone else can continue to enjoy it without bringing down those draconian laws and measures that so many folks are afraid of. The fact that so many places have been ruined in the past is no argument. Especially considering the millions upon millions of people now paving over what little is left. Every one thinks they are "just one." Like collecting fire wood out here; before you know it, it looks like an ant pile and everything is denuded and stripped for acres around, all because "just one" camper, wanted to build a little fire. He doesn't see the thousands of other people there before and after doing the same thing. Like a geothermal pot full of pennies in Yellowstone: It's just one, after all.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I do alot of research ,5 hours online to every 1 hour in the field.And i find alot of nice sites... I always get permission from land owners ,most of the time they had no clue of what was really on their land... Its alot of fun, you should try it oneday ,you can buy a detector right here on tnet

 

[Lowbatts]

I do alot of research ,5 hours online to every 1 hour in the field.And i find alot of nice sites... I always get permission from land owners ,most of the time they had no clue of what was really on their land... Its alot of fun, you should try it oneday ,you can buy a detector right here on tnet

Buy a detector on TNet? No way. There's a new Cabela's right nearby with great prices on a few different machines!
Doesn't hurt that there's good snacks there too. Nothing to eat around here.

 

[rmptr]

As I suggested, hand wringing not my problem. I'm still waiting for those who dig illegally to chime in. As far as those who dig in a way that some want to further define as illegal, I'm frettin' that day.

Ancillary arguments welcome I'm sure, but there is the fact that there are global concerns driving a lot what is being done to us by our government. I did not see a lot of posts in the thread directly addressing the issues in the NG article about Gaza, instead they were diluted by arguments all over the place about how it affects our hobby here.
"loss" here. Definition of "loss" has become vague.

Lowbatts, I guess I've done a pretty good job of dilution with ancillary arguments.
I simpy do NOT relic hunt at all.
As I've said before, I'm a shallow surface hunter for recent drops at parks, schools and playgrounds, sometimes the beach.

I do see it as a property rights issue, and my particular gloom and doom outlook for our immediate future is such that I see significant movement of many displaced persons driven by necessity who will feel no obligation other than to feed themselves.

Of course that raises the hackles of those bound to defend.

I'll go back under my rock so you can discuss the merits of archeological discovery.

Best
rmptr

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Lowbatts, you say: "I'm still waiting for those who dig illegally to chime in."

If someone here DID stoop "low enough" to go out to an old foundations site way out in the middle of nowhere (BLM, state land, or whatever), they probably wouldn't go boasting about it here. Heck, there are people here that think you need "permission" to hunt a city sandbox so no one's going to go boasting of worse

Me? Of course not me! I cower in my living room worrying that I might offend someone, so I never go out

 

[Lowbatts]

As I suggested, hand wringing not my problem. I'm still waiting for those who dig illegally to chime in. As far as those who dig in a way that some want to further define as illegal, I'm frettin' that day.

Ancillary arguments welcome I'm sure, but there is the fact that there are global concerns driving a lot what is being done to us by our government. I did not see a lot of posts in the thread directly addressing the issues in the NG article about Gaza, instead they were diluted by arguments all over the place about how it affects our hobby here.
"loss" here. Definition of "loss" has become vague.

Lowbatts, I guess I've done a pretty good job of dilution with ancillary arguments.
I simpy do NOT relic hunt at all.
As I've said before, I'm a shallow surface hunter for recent drops at parks, schools and playgrounds, sometimes the beach.

I do see it as a property rights issue, and my particular gloom and doom outlook for our immediate future is such that I see significant movement of many displaced persons driven by necessity who will feel no obligation other than to feed themselves.

Of course that raises the hackles of those bound to defend.

I'll go back under my rock so you can discuss the merits of archeological discovery.

Best
rmptr

Hey, I felt a ned to feed myself as a homeless teen, so I killed many a critter in our parks and made off with their hides to my hidey holes, numerous they were back then.

Now I'm tired of seeing signs that say "State Property No Trespassing" all over the place. Even on some of the roadsides where as a hungry kid I could find mulberries, wild asparagus and strawberries and other goodies now gone due to "prairie restoration"

Vanity struck idiots, the prairie is gone, the folks who came here cursed it and plowed it under to feed themselves and in the process built a country.

Same representatives of "the people" who often remind us of the outrage of hunger in this country. But will they let them hungry people eat the thousands of geese and ducks who destroy park landscapes and cause vastly accelerated erosion? The same eroded and destroyed landscapes that they say are off limits to md'ing. Hmmm.

Not to worry, those "hungry" they speak of also somehow fall into the "obesity crisis" that plagues our children. And I really doubt any one of those kids would stop to eat anything they grew or caught themselves since being a ward of the state does predispose one to disdain such real and actually natural self-interests.

Back to my ice cream and soda pop now.

 

[Lowbatts]

Lowbatts, you say: "I'm still waiting for those who dig illegally to chime in."

If someone here DID stoop "low enough" to go out to an old foundations site way out in the middle of nowhere (BLM, state land, or whatever), they probably wouldn't go boasting about it here. Heck, there are people here that think you need "permission" to hunt a city sandbox so no one's going to go boasting of worse

Me? Of course not me! I cower in my living room worrying that I might offend someone, so I never go out

Yep, I cower in my basement, the wife and kids won't let me upstairs until they go to sleep and then I only get access to the kitchen and the small couch.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

if nothing else, this topic has shown how ethics should be taught in schools, since some people sure missed learning the basics at home.

i find treasures all the time, and i leave them where they are, so the people who come after can enjoy them as much as i do...

they used to teach this behavior to all boyscouts.

 

[Lowbatts]

if nothing else, this topic has shown how ethics should be taught in schools, since some people sure missed learning the basics at home.

i find treasures all the time, and i leave them where they are, so the people who come after can enjoy them as much as i do...

they used to teach this behavior to all boyscouts.

Put a couple kids through your local public school system. Perhaps like mine did they'll come home with action guidelines from the Rainforest Action Network and the Quoran. Of course we taught them ethics, so they knew how to respond to the poison that passes for education.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

though, it is not humorous.

education, while federally mandated, is LOCALLY defined.
sad to see diversity upsets some.

 

[rmptr]

Ah, diversity now... the spice of life!

All well and good.

Just wish I could be allowed to make my own choice when to select from the salt, or pepper shaker.

Instead of having the option mandated by someone else.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

i guess some people would like to own slaves, but there is a mandate against that. amazing how one activity leads to another.

 

[rmptr]

Ha! Ha!

Pwp, you sure like to take long shots in the dark!

Under a heading of MD + property rights you've just gone from diversity to slavery!

Guess that's another reason I don't care for Sharia law!

TTFN
rmptr

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

lol

i believe there is a big difference between a western view and east on what is fair game for salvage.
people in the east have a longer period of occupation than the west...European people...heck..some guys on the forum are finding coins older than Tucson...less people were involved in the occupation of the west...
the west does not have a long history of urban occupation, and unfortunately, many of the west treasures are already plundered or lost...

i know i am an abberation as far as recovering treasure is concerned...sorry

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Pipenwhite paws, and the others: I have been listening to these arguments pro and con. The basic word Looting has many interpretations, since it is in the eye of the patricipants.

For example is an Archaeologist that keeps a unique object morally correct even though he is being paid by the public , while an amature that finds and keeps the same unique object under the same circumatances is considered a looter?

Incidentally, I have seen no response to my post #49 ? ?. There are some important questions / issues there.

Don Jose de La mancha

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Don Jose, you're a looter. Just admit it Send all your "looted" goodies to me for proper handling, and I will absolve you of all guilt, making sure it gets to the "proper authorities".

As for your post #49 on this thread, you say:

".... but for everything from 50 years back to be considered untouchable is ridiculous." Agreed. There is just no way in a million years, that even a single aggressive university archaeological dept. could cover just a single national park or ghost town or whatever. Have you seen how small their little 4x4 square pits are? An archie team takes weeks (or an entire summer) to do just some sample trenching or pits at a single site. They could never cover the ground of just a few dozen acres in a million years at that pace. So what are they worried about if someone wanders out in a forest and finds a button or coin? As long as they have their protected zones (some sites we'd all agree on are special and protected sites).

Next you say: "No state or federal government will ever pay the costs to simply seek for unknown sites, especially treasure sites." Yes. Can you imagine the outrage of the Florida taxpayers, in a time of government cut-backs and fiscal scrutiny, if the Florida government announced that large chunks of the state budget were going for risky treasure hunts? (the success rate is abismally low) The public would be out-raged that you're cutting back their kid's school programs, fore-going pot-hole repairs, etc..., and instead funneling the money to risky treasure hunts. There's no way it would pass. Instead, it's the private sector that researches and hunts these wild goose chases with their own risk. And rightfully so!

 

[Lowbatts]

Since we're on the subject. Anyone have any objection to looting in Gaza by locals who stand to profit from it?
Again, I find the term looter as some in the international archaeological community to misleading at best. Seems the UK has done a banner job, recognizing that throughout history it;s the enterprising individual who has gave us the access to some of our greatest discoveries.

In the case against looting in the Holy Land, we might all agree (okay so we might not) much of the history there is known but a similar approach could well yield yet unknown knowledge and insight. It would almost surely reduce the amount of false information and bogus pieces that have become a large cottage industry.

I would of course only support this because we know that eventually most of that neighborhood will be nuked and the current inhabitants there will be dead along with their progeny. Not that I disagree with all those enlightened minds that think there are diplomatic solutions to groups of people who have dedicated their existence to the annhilation of their neighbors, just that history pretty much shows the diplomatic way has never succeeded under such circumstances.

Not trying to take sides or pick a fight either, just wondering where in the League of Nations/Peace in our Time/Corfu Declaration-mindset everyone is coming from?

And what the heck does that have to do me diggingup old buttons?

 

[BuckleBoy]

I would of course only support this because we know that eventually most of that neighborhood will be nuked and the current inhabitants there will be dead along with their progeny. Not that I disagree with all those enlightened minds that think there are diplomatic solutions to groups of people who have dedicated their existence to the annhilation of their neighbors, just that history pretty much shows the diplomatic way has never succeeded under such circumstances.

Not trying to take sides or pick a fight either, just wondering where in the League of Nations/Peace in our Time/Corfu Declaration-mindset everyone is coming from?

And what the heck does that have to do me diggingup old buttons?

Not much. And even less with what this post is about.

 

[rmptr]

But we are ALL very cool.

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