MD = Looting

[shanegalang]

A case where perception is reality.

I doubt there are many among us who would condone someone entering a historic National Park, such as Manassas, Fort McHenry, Jamestown, Williamsburg etc., and digging all we could, leaving the holes, and selling their finds. Same with digging up graves to harvest buttons, buckles and other artifacts.

I also doubt there are many who would find it preferable to leave the relics of the past in the ground so they could be covered by a Wal-Mart parking lot.

There are plenty of folks who make their living with their detectors. I can't fault them for finding something they enjoy, that turns a profit. Personally, I've never sold anything that I've dug, but recently dug a modern gold ring that I have no use for, or attachment to, and may sell. Sure, in 100-200 years, it may prove to be a valuable artifact, but today it is jewelry.

After the Civil War, thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of "worthless/obselete" muskets were cut down, and turned into shotguns, or sold off to foreign governments, or destroyed. Today they are prized collectables.

"Looting" is in the eye of the beholder, and the intent of the digger.

I agree completely! Well said.

 

[l]

MD = Looting?

Thoroughly enlightening read. Eloquently stated positions. I have had to assess my own position regarding why I got into metal detecting, based on the discourse above.

I find that my motivation has been greed. My goal in metal detecting has been the hope of discovering an article or articles of such excessive monetary value that I can quickly (quietly) and easily convert it(them) into a reasonable retirement and use the proceeds to further enjoy my personal special interests. MDing would continue to be a part of that activity. This goal of course has not been realized to date.

I can rationalize that I need the exercise, that the fresh air is good for me, that the country or area I happen to be detecting is thoroughly enjoyable, even beautiful, peaceful and many additional superlatives. But, in the final analysis, I'm greedy. I want or hope to find someone else's loss, or un-recovered reserve of sufficiently high value to make my life easier (by off setting that need for the 9 to 5).

Sure MDing is fun. Even the school yard and tot-lot variety of detecting can be thoroughly enjoyable. That was not the root cause of my first MD purchase, or the last one.

I don't have any finds that I would consider to be a relic, or any finds of a value higher than a hundred dollars. That doesn't alter the fact that I decided to get a metal detector to enhance my fortune.

I guess my point is to bring out the fact that there are those of us in the hobby, and I think many, that are motivated purely by the monetary side of the equation. Whether or not successful, the motivation is money, not history, not scenery, not etc etc etc.

It does seem to me that the artificial restriction of metal detecting. will only serve to confuse the future record. Archaeologists in 3300 might find it more difficult to understand the unbroken line of debris in location A while in location B the record seems to stop at about 1950 + or - `100 years.

Several have commented on how much more realistic the British system is. I suspect that there is still a good deal of under the table activity in relics in England. Far less than here perhaps, but it's human nature to want to exercise personal freedom in spite of the rules that others would impose. Drive the speed limit ALL the time if you disagree...... .

In net then, many of us I think, enjoy the hobby, but are after a 'treasure'!

Yes, it's fantasy, but isn't that what motivates most of the world? Surely it can't be motivated by reality.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: MD = Looting?

Thoroughly enlightening read.  Eloquently stated positions.  I have had to assess my own position regarding why I got into metal detecting, based on the discourse above.

I find that my motivation has been greed.  My goal in metal detecting has been the hope of discovering an article or articles of such excessive monetary value that I can quickly (quietly) and easily convert it(them) into a reasonable retirement and use the proceeds to further enjoy my personal special interests.  MDing would continue to be a part of that activity.   This goal of course has not been realized to date.

I can rationalize that I need the exercise, that the fresh air is good for me, that the country or area I happen to be detecting is thoroughly enjoyable, even beautiful, peaceful and many additional superlatives.  But, in the final analysis, I'm greedy.  I want or hope to find someone else's loss, or un-recovered reserve of sufficiently high value to make my life easier (by off setting that need for the 9 to 5).   

Sure MDing is fun.  Even the school yard and tot-lot variety of detecting can be thoroughly enjoyable.   That was not the root cause of my first MD purchase, or the last one.   

I don't have any finds that I would consider to be a relic, or any finds of a value higher than a hundred dollars.  That doesn't alter the fact that I decided to get a metal detector to enhance my fortune. 

I guess my point is to bring out the fact that there are those of us in the hobby, and I think many,  that are motivated purely by the monetary side of the equation.  Whether or not successful, the motivation is money, not history, not scenery, not etc etc etc.   

It does seem to me that the artificial restriction of metal detecting. will only serve to confuse the future record.   Archaeologists in 3300 might find it more difficult to understand the unbroken line of debris in location A while in location B the record seems to stop at about 1950 + or - `100 years. 

Several have commented on how much more realistic the British system is.  I suspect that there is still a good deal of under the table activity in relics in England.  Far less than here perhaps, but it's human nature to want to exercise personal freedom in spite of the rules that others would impose.  Drive the speed limit ALL the time if you disagree......  .

In net then, many of us I think, enjoy the hobby, but are after a 'treasure'!   

Yes, it's fantasy, but isn't that what motivates most of the world?  Surely it can't be motivated by reality.

Quite a post for your first post on Treasurenet.  Well said!  And welcome to the forum.  


After reading your post, I started thinking about my motivation in a little more depth...  What keeps me going?  The finding of anything old and interesting.  Doesn't matter what it is, it will be saved, preserved, and displayed.  And as long as I have a keeper at the end of a hunt, I'm happy.  And anything more valuable or rare is icing on the cake...  But I think if I were out to find a real treasure every time I'd experience more disappointment in the hobby than I ever have.  So I just do what I do best--and in the process it all adds up.  And I hunt in the type of spots where just about anything can be found at any moment.  So it's one surprise after another on a hunt--and that's part of the attraction, too. But I also know that there are still "Big Ones" waiting--and I just have to be patient and enjoy the ride. 

In terms of value in a strictly monetary sense--in my experience, the moment such an item or items are dug, the moment trouble begins.  And while I will never, Ever regret making such finds, there have been times when I wasn't in too great of a position for life to become suddenly and unexpectedly much more complicated.


Best Wishes,



Buckles

 

[ivan salis]

MD = looting -- like archeology = grave robbing

 

[kuger]

Very good posts,I can honestly say I never set out to find "treasure",of a value sense.But that is where interpretation of "treasure",comes in.As said a very valuable item can be found at any time that is true and I would be thrilled to find it but the true reason I detect is to save,research and pass on my artifacts to a museum in the future.I concentrate on one period specifically.As history is everywhere is being lost,under pavement,developements or flooded for reservoirs.I find it alarming as to how much history is right under societies nose and just how much most people really dont know about history.It also really gripes me when somebody digs something up(of great historical significance) and shows no attempt to learn about or wants to argue with what it truly is.For example I know of three New York Volunteer(or New York Legion) buttons being dug.As far as I know only one has been dug in any other state than California.One of the more popular button books has the button misidentified as a "New York Lancers",button,which I can not find anything on "Lancers",and know for an absolute fact that the buttons are from the New York Legion.I wont get into the history here but this regiment played a very significant role in California's history.Two of the three that I know of that have dug them refuse to listen to there true identity.Sorry for the rant but it is something that really bothers me.

 

[rmptr]

All that culture is worth a cheeseburger when you've gone without for a while.

Count me in for salvage.

Among others, Mel Fisher is a great man!

rmptr

(I'm wondering if that fella with the rag on his head could get in the White's advertising campaign...)
Maybe they'll send him a T-shirt.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO my Friends, and that does include many archaeologists. When I recently visited an "Archie" friend in Tucson, he excitedly showed me a hammer whose wooden handle was being replaced with copper from an ancient copper mine on one of the islands of the Med.

This is an extremely unique item, one that definitely belongs in a museum with many papers being written up on it.. but, under the circumstances, it will never be brought to the public or his peers attention. It is also extremely important for the chemical, Metallurgical, Mineral, and other sciences, but, they will never even get to know about it. He has other very interesting items, some of one of a kind also.

So much for all Archaeologists being altruistic.

Beyond this, I wonder just how much remains to be written on any phase of life from the 1500's on? We have detailed plans for all types of ship construction, multi invoices of their cargos, multi copies of their laws and daily business transactions. and museums full of detailed things used in every day life from that period to the present. what more is there to be learned about life from those periods til the present?.

I can understand a single occurrence, such as a battle etc.,being kept off bounds, but for everything from 50 years back to be considered untouchable is ridiculous. There aren't enough museums in the world to even begin to think of exhibiting what is already available back to the 1500's.. Why is an old empty can of pork and beans that I discarded in the 50's while looking for prehistoric sites in Baja, Archaeologically important? Heck, anyone can read of the trip just by reading of it in Tn where I have posted the story.

As for all ship wrecks to be left alone as monuments to the lost lives, shucks, prob . 60% of Europe consists of old sites of massacres, battles, former towns . grave yards, known and unknown, etc .etc., If every place that held dead people at one time, or another, were to be honored as shrines as shipwrecks are, most of Europs would have to be abandoned. Yet here in the US we blithely pave over prehistoric sites or cover old Archaeological and grave sites with malls, buildings., or even highways and dams.. I doubt that all of the dectorists in the world combined can begin to compete with the present legal destruction of known sites.

As for presently unknown sites, only detectorists or TREASURE HUNTERS will ever discover them. No state or federal government will ever pay the costs to simply seek for unknown sites, especially treasure sites. So if someone decides to forgo a relatively secure livelihood to look for a lost treasure or a sunken ship. they should be allowed to reap the rewards of success just as in any other business. The secondary payoff will be for the Archaeologists to have their day on something that they themselves could never dream of looking for, let alone finding.. By severely limiting detectorists and pure treasure hunters, an infinite no of sites will never be found to keep the Archaeologists happily employed excavating..

A crude example, I started on a project in 1955 and i finally terminated it successfully in1992. Shouldn't I be compensated for the years of lost earnings, expenses, comfortable living at our vineyard in California, and not the least, my ability to solve an enigma that no-one else - knowingly - has done for over 400 years ? If I benefit by it financially, am I to be considered a looter? This, as from a shipwreck, will return much needed capital to a world in which various govt's are printing up paper money trying to desperately prop up the finances of the word. Open salvage of shipwrecks will pour a tremendous amount of HARD money into the system, this alone far outweighs paper money values by ratios of tens to hundreds.of $$.

No one should ever bother a coin hunter that fills in her/ his holes after. and carries off any trash found while detecting.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[dahut]

No one should ever bother a coin hunter that fills in her/ his holes after and carries off any trash found while detecting.

And few will, until he...

A. Is on "their" land,
B. Is stealing their thunder,
C. Is getting money they are left out of.

Once these happen, the gloves are off.

 

[Huck Mucus]

I only read a few posts in this long thread, but it brought to mind something that made me rather angry.

I was born and raised out west, in Colorado, Wyoming and Idaho. I recently read an article that dropped my jaw and left me wondering about some in the treasure hunting community (not all, I know, but some). The article was entitled "Finding Treasure Troves In Old Houses & Barns", by James E. Mulkey, in "Gold Prospectors, The Magazine for Gold, Gem and Treasure Hunters", November/December 2008.

First, the author continually references "abandoned farms and ranches." There is no such thing. They ALL belong to someone, as does all the personal property on those farms and ranches. I don't care if the buildings are no longer used, and haven't been used since the 1800s. Anything that is truly abandoned reverts to the state or federal government and is then sold or auctioned off or retained in the public domain, where laws protect the property.

Perhaps one might say I am splitting a legal hair, and the author merely meant “no longer lived in or used for it’s original purpose” when he used the term “abandoned”. However, anyone who read the article can tell full well what this author was getting at. He’s inconsiderate, disrespectful and, in my opinion, dishonorable.

Second (and this is where I really was astounded) the author states, early in the article (third paragraph), "No Trespassing signs may scare off the timid; yet, these are the very places where you can be sure of finding coins and caches of paper money along with jewelry and collectables."

I could not believe that! I was so flabbergasted to read this in a national, mainstream publication that I kept reading under the assumption that such an asinine statement would rapidly be followed by a stern and clear caveat about asking permission. So, stretching for a benefit of the doubt, on I read.

Finally, toward the end of the article, twenty two paragraphs later, and after telling several personal anecdotes (including one where he is spotted by some cowboys who check some property; he waits until they leave before going down: “I took a chance on the two cowboys not returning and walked inside the house”), he finally says “Once you have located a likely looking old barn and gained permission from its owner to conduct a search . . .”.

After several other anecdotes, including one where a U.S. Forest Service employee had also collected antique wood working tools from abandoned barns while traveling throughout the Northwest, he tosses out one other bone about asking permission.

Notwithstanding the token nature of the caveats, they are buried in the article and it is written in such a fashion that you clearly get the gist of what he’s saying.

I’ve known many, many ranchers and farmers and they know exactly what tools and antiques they have in those old barn and farm houses. And none of them would be willing to let you take them, or search so long as you gave them “half” of what you find (suggested by the author). Most of these people have also had their barns and houses raided by collectors; some even stealing the graying old wood planks to line the den walls in their suburban homes. Horse tack, tools, farm equipment and all sorts of family heirlooms and such have been stolen by morons who think the place is abandoned.

Again, it may seem like I am over-reacting, but if you actually read the article, which I can’t re-print here because it’s too lengthy, you would get a very clear picture of what is being said; and it’s not ethical.

Just remember, most of the states out west that I am aware of, place the burden upon the public to know exactly what land is private and what land is open to the public. There is no need to post no trespassing signs. And if the land is public, there are laws against looting historical artifacts.

It’s a big country, but someone or some entity owns every single square inch of it. Unless a person knows, as a matter of fact and law that it’s okay to look for something in a given area, or to even be on certain property, then they assume the responsibility. Their failure to accept it can not only turn them into common criminals deserving of little mercy, or it can, at the least, reflect poorly on all the good folks who pursue the hobby/profession.

End rant.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening HUCK: No argument there, I am from the west so I do know what you are talking about. As for Tayopa, I own the mineral and surface rights, about 2200 acres.

But always remember, only the state / govt is the ultimate owner of any land.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[kuger]

Kudo's to you Huck,AMEN do I know what you are talking about.I too am a country boy and often voice my disgust with ^&$^&75 es that boast about there prowess into private property.I have been chastised and nearly kicked off of forums for this fact.I am seventh generation on the land I live and it is a full time job keeping signs up(after people tear them down)and people out.The old homesteads have been stripped of absolutly everything,including now the boards as you said.They are even working on the soapstone fire place that my great grandfather built himself.What are we supposed to do?Camp on it and then when you catch them you cant do as you want,the law is no help.It is a HUGE problem and boils my blood to no end.I work long and hard to obtain and keep permission on other properties as well and have even lost my privileges on some those because of fence hoppers.

 

[ivan salis]

if you don't "own" the land access rights for it and its not open to the public -ie "public land" --- you best respect the tax paying land renters "land rights" and get their ok to enter "their" land ( sadly the ideal of "land ownership" really is basically a scam -- folks think they "own" land )---but if theydon't pay the land taxes (rent to the govt to let you stay there) just watch and see who owns what and what happens (a govt tax sale to the newest "land renter" thats what) --- in the end only the govt really "owns" and controls the land long term and often govts tell "land owners" what thry can and can not do with "thier own land" -- the govt says can't build this or can't do that --now in my view if you honestly own something --you can do as you please with it)--so called land owners are just long term renters in effect ( by paying land tax) but they as "land renters" from the govt , they do get to control who they let on the land and maybe yeild a few things from the land it self ---so get the "owners" ok before poking around if its "privately owned" land at least give the guy a bit of respect hell he paid dearly for it --- however that said I feel public land is just that "public land" open for all (the "public" ) to seek what they can find of wealth on it .

 

[rmptr]

I was out surfing the blogs, found some nice sounding folks interested in old timey stuff...

They also had a book review, and were real pleased with "Burro Bill and Me".
East coast college gal from money who met a Doughboy and went to live with him in Death Valley through the depression years, and then some.

The book chronicles how they led a good, but simple life, making passes through and about Death Valley with their pack string, gathering up just about anything they could haul off to sell to tourists.

It was their only means of support.

Pretty much as the other feller posted!

Then, on the other hand, you got yer folks about to have a coronary tizzy fit and keel right over outta their chair because folks with an empty belly and little respect are hauling off odds and ends from property they don't even have time to keep an eye on, but sure do want to keep anyone else from gettin it!

Seems like yet another tale of the have's and the have not's.

I have heard that Obie is gonna change all that, and we can all have hope.
You believe that?

I figure we gonna see a lot of transients and squatters for at least a number of years.
Pretty much a re-shuffle of the deck.

My state is runnin a bigger deficit than the whole budget of some small countries.
There's talk about bankruptcy.
I'm wondering how things will wash out when all them starpackers stop gettin their paychecks and don't even bother to protect the Boss Hogg corporate bank properties any longer.

Of course the house always wins, in the end.

Fingerhut? Blackwater? Who knows!

Aargghh!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Huck, I can sympathize with what you're saying, especially when it comes to someone helping themselves to handtools, or other house/barn implements. For some reason that reeks of stealing on private property. It would be questionable enough to promote this "abandoned property" logic for metal detecting (where stuff in the ground is simply unseen and unknown), but to promote it for household gizmos, doorknobs, woodworks, etc... seems especially in poor taste.

Next you say: "And if the land is public, there are laws against looting historical artifacts." I'm not so sure I'd get tizzied up about that though. I mean, if there IS such laws, fine. But barring federal, and some state land, there are rarely laws barring metal detecting on county or city levels. So if there is nothing specifically disallowing metal detecting on public land, then there isn't a problem. Then yes, I agree with Ivan: "....however that said I feel public land is just that "public land" open for all (the "public" ) to seek what they can find of wealth on it ..."

 

[kuger]

I was out surfing the blogs, found some nice sounding folks interested in old timey stuff...

They also had a book review, and were real pleased with "Burro Bill and Me".
East coast college gal from money who met a Doughboy and went to live with him in Death Valley through the depression years, and then some.

The book chronicles how they led a good, but simple life, making passes through and about Death Valley with their pack string, gathering up just about anything they could haul off to sell to tourists.

It was their only means of support.

Pretty much as the other feller posted!

Then, on the other hand, you got yer folks about to have a coronary tizzy fit and keel right over outta their chair because folks with an empty belly and little respect are hauling off odds and ends from property they don't even have time to keep an eye on, but sure do want to keep anyone else from gettin it!

Seems like yet another tale of the have's and the have not's.

I have heard that Obie is gonna change all that, and we can all have hope.
You believe that?

I figure we gonna see a lot of transients and squatters for at least a number of years.
Pretty much a re-shuffle of the deck.

My state is runnin a bigger deficit than the whole budget of some small countries.
There's talk about bankruptcy.
I'm wondering how things will wash out when all them starpackers stop gettin their paychecks and don't even bother to protect the Boss Hogg corporate bank properties any longer.

Of course the house always wins, in the end.

Fingerhut? Blackwater? Who knows!

Aargghh!

You are obviously not getting it!How would you feel about somebody carting off your family history??I mean a fire place,what are we supposed to do dismantle it and take it home because somebody can not respect others belonging or the law??Let me come to your house and do some snooping around.I metal detect and with full permission,if something is in a barn or in a house it stays there,why do you thinkit is there??If it were on public property would it be there??I think not.Its there because it has been protected(by the owner) and in there mind it is where it belongs.

 

[rmptr]

Hello Kuger.

Yes sir, I do get it.

We are different people.
I can see, and touch, everything in my possession each day.
Pretty much at any time.

I don't have a section of land, with a fallow 'south 40' we're not using this year,
and the family homestead is not on a 1/4 section over across the valley and only get by there every few weeks.

We pay an obscene rent to a landlord for a cheaply built box on a city plot that is managed by a rental company that inspects to see that I don't have a broken car in the driveway, or my boat stored in the yard.

I can be asked to leave at the whim of the owner, or his management agent and be in the street in 60 days, enforced by the sheriff of the county.

I certainly don't think anyone should pillage your property when you go to the Circle K for a stick of chewing gum and a Slurpee, just because it is unoccupied and untended... However

I do feel we are entering a period of significant trubulence and perhaps some degree of chaos.
There will be change.
Hold on to your hat!

Question.
If you love that fireplace so much, why not hire a crane and lowboy to cart it to your present residence so you can enjoy it in a BBQ patio area, or something like that?

I am a proponent of adverse possession laws that are presently on the books, dating from the time of Common Law. I have (unsuccessfully) conducted an adverse action against a piece of property of a deceased person, without heirs. I lost, in that one effort, because of a bottom feeding lawyer who had undertaken the matter in probate because the deceased was intestate.

Possibly worse, I would participate in a tax sale, where some perhaps distant landowner of record did not pay their rent to state, and was in forfeit for such. I do feel there shall be many more instances of tax default in the near future. Again, hold on to your hat!

Sincerely,
I do wish you the best,
rmptr

 

[kuger]

I dont know what your getting but it isnt my point!!!!You obviosly arent going to either but.....my family has improved that land keeping the springs open,brush cleared noxious weeds out etc. for over 150 years and paid good ole uncle sam who hasnt done a damn thing!My family has also protected that land from ye hoos shooting up everything tearing up the land with there 4x4's,throwing beer cans every where etc.... like on public land(what have you done for any land public included?).They have also protected why lies beneath the soil which we as metal detectorists now expose.Sure there is stuff to be found on public land but its few and far between.Also on that subject does your family culture mean anything to you??Do you know anything about your family history?If you had something would you be O.K. with it being torn down piece by piece??That is my heritage my forefathers worked hard to get what we have and we have worked hard to keep it.Why should we have to tear something down to protect it?Unfortunatly there are many that have your lack of values and morals and have no clue what it is to have something.Yea and with your armageddon martial law will return and we pack big guns so remember that when you feel the need to disrespect ones property

 

[rmptr]

Hi Kuger,

I'm not sure what it is that you think I don't, or won't understand.

You have said that your family has put years of toil into a piece of property, yet others are able to pretty much pillage it at their whim. Is that correct, or not?

It seems to me you might be expecting others to be substantial and established as you are and harbor the same set of values. I'm suggesting it's not necessarily true, and is most definitely in direct conflict in very many cases.

Let me attempt to post a link to a recent article on the MSN Realty network news...

http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=15819672

Looks like it worked!
You might wish to read it, in detail.

Here's the heading for the article.

Squatters: The latest real-estate menace
Vacant properties across the country are being seized by a new breed of squatters. They’re organized and often armed with fake paperwork, and it can take months to get them out.

By Melinda Fulmer of MSN Real Estate


Now Kuger, I don't think it's wise for you to question someone's family values and/or cultural heritage.
I would also consider it frivolous to rattle sabres.
In both matters, it is apparent you know very little.

If you wish, I will address those aspects directly, but I'd prefer you just give it some thought, on your own.

Best
rmptr

 

[ivan salis]

I for one do not hold with tresspassing on another person's land -- the person who sweated and worked long and hard to buy that land and those who pay the land tax (rent to the govt to keep "their" land) deserves a bit of respect . -- taking anything off of "owned" land is stealing plain and simple -- if the lands not "yours" and its not "open to the public land" -- get the land owners ok first or stay off -- I if I find people that have no right to be there and that didn't ask to be on my land , its very simple -- I will hold them at gunpoint for tresspassing (citizen's arrest) until the cops come and haul you off to jail.

a lot of folks with "big mega acre spreads" today have them due to robber baron grand folks types of the past, its true but that doesn't make stealing ok today any more than it was then.

that said -- "open public land" is just that --and in my veiw anyone who can find something of worth that will help improve his condition should be free to get it or file a claim on it & mine it or homestead a bit of it .

 

[kuger]

RMPTR I feel I am wasting my time as it is evident what type of mental set you posses .It is very obvious of your lack of morals and over all understanding of any outside of your little urban bubble,you have made that clear.It is not my fault nor is it my fault you have nothing.I am not rich or a land baron,I have to work just as hard as my forefathers.I run a cattle operation and in order to do that we fortunately do have several large tracts of land that we must have to run the numbers of cattle we do to make ends meet.We pay more property tax than you probably pay for rent in a year and I am presently feeding $750 a day in hay.I cant be every where and people like you and the article that was posted stated you lie in wait anyway and slip in after we leave.I am not able to live at the original homestead due to its distance from town and my kids schools.You still have failed to answer a couple of questions I asked of you,such as what makes it O.K. for someone to take what is not theirs and how would you feel if it were your families homestead that being pillaged??Oh yea and by the way we have had squatters and had little problem in getting them to leave.......again when it comes down to it we have our ways.......you think about that