MD = Looting

[dahut]

So the "value" (what a problematic word for the Philosophers as well as us everyday Joes)...the "value" of an item is hard to gauge. And unless folks can communicate in writing the value they place on the hunt, the scenery, an easy (or difficult) recovery, good companionship, family, or tradition...this sense of Value goes unnoticed in posts on this and other Internet Forums.

I regularly do presentations at local schools on "Life in the 1800s" and talk about MDing and show items I have found that have a story to tell. I figure that the way to counter Negative publicity is with Positive publicity. And every time I show that display case of suspender clips, and see the smiles and wide-eyed expressions on the kids' faces, those clips get More "Valuable." So I figure if history cannot be "saved," it can at least be Shared.

That is value, and all your efforts vindicated. You can stand apart from the herd for all you do - the sharing you do brings value too dear to count.

It is almost funny--and scary as well--the lead photo. I agree with you that the implications of the photo psychologically are worse than any negative publicity in print in the article itself. This is in light of the last eight years, especially.

I agree. Had they put any other photo but that one, it would have been better for all of us. Detecting as terrorism? Gee, thanks!

We do not have such laws here for the most part, excepting areas that are nationally or locally protected.
...but we're talking about areas there of World Cultural Heritage and Significance--not parks, beaches, and yards like we hunt here. So I think it comes to this: Can the general public who read this article make the distinction?

Depends on how much money, or whose reputation, is at stake.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

This is a common misconception. Archaeology is not about being able to identify every piece of material culture upon sight. Archaeology is about incorporating all aspects of context into a data set conducive to scientific analysis. It is about the deciphering of the big picture. You knew more about a single example, and the partial context of one example. You would want to ask the "archie" if your hypothesis actually would actually stand up to peer review.

I constantly see posts snubbing academia because someone in the private sector has more knowledge on the identification of some esoteric artifact, but in the content of their post show absolutely no understanding, or even knowledge of the scientific process. Your post here is another example of this.

What you did do however, is to demonstrate the valuable resource that is the internet, and this forum, to get the recovered materials out into the public domain for study by all interested parties. It just so happened that the archaeologist made use of the technology to get an initial determination for the button. It sure beats sending off for citable "grey literature". Instead of making use of the opportunity for a positive impression, you mock the archaeologist publicly for not having attained a PhD. in "your button".

It demonstrates a real lack of awareness of what archaeology entails, and also helps to further the impression the establishment largely seems to have of us as looters.

They have their issues, but it will take two to tango........

If ever any bills are before any politician of power regarding the outlawing of any recovery of anything over 50 years old, do not think for a second that TreasureNet and its' contents will not be seen, and do not think that you did not do your part to get our beloved hobby good and #$&%% outlawed.

The scariest part is that there are so many scoundrels on both sides....

well said, thank you.

 

[BuckleBoy]

A fine post, Plehbah. I like that you speak your mind articulately, and you make good points.

Instead of making use of the opportunity for a positive impression, you mock the archaeologist publicly for not having attained a PhD. in "your button".

I agree 100%. Digging the rift deeper and deeper. Archaeologists are concerned with the bigger picture--with cultures and migration, with dissemination of artifacts across geographical areas, etc.--not frequently concerned with a single pot sherd or button, except as an example that adds to that bigger picture. And to add to the comments on "value" I brought up above, Archaeological significance is quite a different animal from monetary value or scarcity.

Seems like the "us or them," "black or white" idealogy could be at work here. Differences to be noticed and understood can become demonizing traits in the hands of angry, emotional folks with less education than they deserve.

Of course, nobody seems to be able to win an argument anymore on the basis of discourse. They win it by putting down the other side.


I think the Moderators of this forum could take more of an Active role in this. TreasureNet is already Quick to pull anything that would upset its Sponsors--so how about things could undermine our very Hobby?!

Of course, folks will gripe and bitch about it--and say "Tnet is China" and "We have a RIGHT to Free Speech!" Well... Bull Crap. This is not a Democracy... and websites are not modeled on some form of Government.


Here's one example of many--where the replies and indeed perhaps the thread itself--should've gotten the Boot!


http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,158667.0.html

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Plehbah, you say: "You knew more about a single example, and the partial context of one example." That's just the point. If it were up to purist archaeologicalists, the "you" in that case (me or my friend) would not have existed TO BEGIN WITH.

You would agree, that the premiere bottle, button, relic, etc... guide-books are mostly written by private collectors & diggers, right? But wait, those "private collectors and diggers" wouldn't exist, if it were up to some of more purists types in archaeology. So then where would these great reference works come from, that the archies themselves refer to? An example of this is the Mel Fisher research works, preservation, museums, etc... While on the one hand, Fisher got scorned by some FL archies because he was *just* a treasure hunter and "oh no! he's robbing it from its context" blah blah blah, yet NOW, in retrospect, no one disagrees that never in a million years would tax-payer funded archaeologists have embarked on risky treasure hunts with tax-payer money. It would never have gotten funded, and would thus sit and rot on the ocean floor forever. Instead, the "private sector" did a great job on preservation, interpretation, research results for all to see, etc...

I'm not anti-archie. Only anti-purist-archie. I guess the "scoundrell-ness" you admit to that even exists on the archie side And although it appeared I poked fun at the archie who inquired of us about our button, I ONLY did so because the arrows have long since flown from THEIR camp, to the MD'ING camp. Ie.: I have quite often come up upon archies who ..... .when they find out they're talking to an md'r, make very sure to let you know they don't appreciate your "pot-hunting", or whatever they want to call it. So only THEN did/does it appear odd when they come to our camp, for clues, aids, etc.... Like, since when were we ever qualified to help them, when we are nothing but un-educated oofs?

 

[ivan salis]

ah looting --- ever see a "lucky" seagull get a fish ? ---- as soon as the other seagulls figger out hes got one the other seagulls fly after him pecking and poking at him in a effort to get him to drop the fish so they can grab it and swallow it or at least get a part of it for themselves --- govts and the bulk of people are like seagulls in that respect for the most part. --- Ivan

I have found several times that I know as much or more than some archie type folks on certain subject matters -- we could greatly aid one another -- we have lots of bodies and often great knowledge on certain matters --and knowledge of sites as well --they often have a a broader based knowledge and other useful training and legal standing that they could bring to the table --- by working together (much like england does ) great finds could make their way into the states collections and metal detectorist would be fairly rewarded * --- the stay out of my playground approach only serves to cause problems and distrust on both sides.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Here's another one that I regret is a public document on the net:

http://www.metafilter.com/62715/I-was-privy-to-something-down-and-dirty

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening buckle boy: Room, Hm in the 1600's->1800's how many families were there? If only groups of 10 used an outhouse, renewed approx. every 5 - 7 years, how many billions of outhouses would there be?

Obviously many were not precisely charted as to their location, so are unknown today.

What a wonderful exercise for future Archaeologists to use advanced instruments similar to our present GPR etc. to find and excavate literally millions of X outhouses that the greedy, looting, detectorists missed. This should keep them busy for some thousands of years.

This is getting a bit over zealous on the part of the Archaeoligists, frankly silly, some would even say stupid..Sigh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[BuckleBoy]

Evening buckle boy: Room, Hm in the 1600's->1800's how many families were there? If only groups of 10 used an outhouse, renewed approx. every 5 - 7 years, how many billions of outhouses would there be?

Obviously many were not precisely charted as to their location, so are unknown today.

What a wonderful exercise for future Archaeologists to use advanced instruments similar to our present GPR etc. to find and excavate literally millions of X outhouses that the greedy, looting, detectorists missed. This should keep them busy for some thousands of years.

This is getting a bit over zealous on the part of the Archaeoligists, frankly silly, some would even say stupid..Sigh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

You're exactly right. I was just thinking earlier today how much easier it would be to locate a privy with GPR than with a probe.

 

[gollum]

Here ya go:

 

[tinpan]

The archie's quite frequently need to turn to US to learn more about their finds. A friend of mine found a rare button, and posted it on a forum with a little dossier he'd come up with. A few months later, he got an email from an archie who was doing research on the locations these buttons had been circulated to, and any other info. my friend could give him. Apparently the archie had googled the button, and got a hit on my friend. We had a chuckle as to how we knew more about this button, their circulation, their use after a battle, etc... than the archie did.

This is a common misconception. Archaeology is not about being able to identify every piece of material culture upon sight. Archaeology is about incorporating all aspects of context into a data set conducive to scientific analysis. It is about the deciphering of the big picture. You knew more about a single example, and the partial context of one example. You would want to ask the "archie" if your hypothesis actually would actually stand up to peer review.

I constantly see posts snubbing academia because someone in the private sector has more knowledge on the identification of some esoteric artifact, but in the content of their post show absolutely no understanding, or even knowledge of the scientific process. Your post here is another example of this.

What you did do however, is to demonstrate the valuable resource that is the internet, and this forum, to get the recovered materials out into the public domain for study by all interested parties. It just so happened that the archaeologist made use of the technology to get an initial determination for the button. It sure beats sending off for citable "grey literature". Instead of making use of the opportunity for a positive impression, you mock the archaeologist publicly for not having attained a PhD. in "your button".

It demonstrates a real lack of awareness of what archaeology entails, and also helps to further the impression the establishment largely seems to have of us as looters.

They have their issues, but it will take two to tango........

If ever any bills are before any politician of power regarding the outlawing of any recovery of anything over 50 years old, do not think for a second that TreasureNet and its' contents will not be seen, and do not think that you did not do your part to get our beloved hobby good and #$&%% outlawed.

The scariest part is that there are so many scoundrels on both sides....

One of the best reads i have seen on NT, i also noticed those few ,who make remarks about "achies" have not replied to this thread.

tinpan

 

[ivan salis]

few people realize acchies aren't experts on every single bit of item every found -- they too are human --and often tend to focus on "specialist " knowledge of a certain time frame or era -- while they tend to have a good general knowledge of history in general -- asking an archie to be able to id everything ever dug up ---is like asking a musuc teacher --do you know every song ever written by memory?

archies also tend to study things other than just the items found ---like movement patterns -- find common items at a and b site---then folks transported it from trading post a to camp b -- stuff like that ---which are not a metal detectorist cup of tea so to speak. (boring to most folks) we detectorist however often do have great IDing skills -- I would rate the group of folks at the whats it forum as good or better than some state labs at IDing stuff.

we can and should work together -- detectorist and archies -- detectorist have the "bodies in the feild" to make great finds -- sadly these finds often get "hidden away" for fear the grubbermint will simple "take" it away --without any sort of payment or proper credit going to said finder of the item. --- if detectorist were to get a fair shake for their items --the items would fill our measums or could be legally sold if the state did not want / need them.--- by using this method in a short whileit would help greatly in slowing down or wiping out blackmarket looting -- since normal folks could own "real" legitimate items certified by the state as legit.

 

[kuger]

Some great reading and very good points made,but may I ask how many out there have ever seen an archies "private",collection??I have and all would out do any museum.Also they always say"oh everything dug will be put on display for all to see and enjoy",yea?Where?The majority of items in museums are donated by everyday Joes.Also what is really being learned by the majority of there digs??I dont see history books being re written?? On a side note; I was working in Nevada and had been confronted by a B.L.M. "Ranger",about picking uparrow heads (I know I know it legal,supposedly yada yada)I will assure you legal or not they dont have a sense of humor about it.Anyway a couple weeks after this meeting I seen a fellow that was obviously picking up arrowheads so I wandered out to him.I asked him what he was doing(expecting a lie)he very kindly told me "looking for arrowheads"!He was all dirty,and I noticed a sifter in his pack.I said"I thought that was illegal?",he chuckled and said,"well it is but,I AM AN ARCHEOLOGIST,and I am surveying the area for future digs!Mind you this was 60 miles from any town or any threat of any development.I guess my point is what makes them any different from you or I?

 

[BuckleBoy]

Some great reading and very good points made,but may I ask how many out there have ever seen an archies "private",collection??I have and all would out do any museum.Also they always say"oh everything dug will be put on display for all to see and enjoy",yea?Where?The majority of items in museums are donated by everyday Joes.Also what is really being learned by the majority of there digs??I dont see history books being re written?? On a side note; I was working in Nevada and had been confronted by a B.L.M. "Ranger",about picking uparrow heads (I know I know it legal,supposedly yada yada)I will assure you legal or not they dont have a sense of humor about it.Anyway a couple weeks after this meeting I seen a fellow that was obviously picking up arrowheads so I wandered out to him.I asked him what he was doing(expecting a lie)he very kindly told me "looking for arrowheads"!He was all dirty,and I noticed a sifter in his pack.I said"I thought that was illegal?",he chuckled and said,"well it is but,I AM AN ARCHEOLOGIST,and I am surveying the area for future digs!Mind you this was 60 miles from any town or any threat of any development.I guess my point is what makes them any different from you or I?

That's what You should've told the ranger--just like that hunter told you.

 

[kuger]

Your right!I am too honest!!!

 

[rginn]

I did a lot of metal detecting and arrowhead hunting in Oklahoma. I was interested in modern coins and surface finds. For the most part, Dr. Richard Drass at OU of the Oklahoma Archaeology Survey works with people like me, doesn't condemn us, and is very interested in what us amateur archeologists come up with. Of course if we dug up Spiro Mounds he would call the law in a heartbeat. I have located several previously unidentified pre and historical sites and passed the info on to OU. In the area of Camp Radziminski, which sadly has been pot hunted to death in years past, I located what appears to be an untouched look-out post from that era. So far, nobody has been interested in researching it, but everything I found that led me to believe that is still there when they get ready to check it out. So I guess I do my part to preserve history. On the other hand, if I found the gold on Flat-Top Mountain my great-uncle searched for for many years and probably found something, like him I might not say a word. That's hypocritical, but it would be a great temptation.

 

[Shortstack]

Given the term, " looting '; the only difference between archaeologists and us is they are licensed looters and we are not. Under their licenses, they can, and do go in and desecrate graves. We non-licensed looters respect all graves and do not disturb them. Personally, I think we are a whole lot better than them based on that fact alone. So what if an archaeologist has a PhD from some university? That just makes him or her an educated grave robber.

 

[aarthrj3811]

As a gold dredger I have been called all kinds of names from the governments of the USA and the state of California. They seem to think that all the gold belongs to them. Gee…Why don’t they go get it? Why do they want it after I find? Simple…..They are just a bunch of Educated Idiots. They can not figure out that most of it is located on land that is owned by the US Government. All of us own this land and they can only make laws. They can not understand what these simple words mean “ We the people”. We are the ones that control what happens in our land. I think it is time to vote them all out and start all over with people That understand who really who controls this great Country….Art

 

[BuckleBoy]

Is this degrading into yet another post where fingers are pointed at Everyone that has a College Degree?!


Not everything in the ground is yours for the taking. "We the People" or not, you Do Not make the decisions about what happens on Private Land. Nor would you want others making decisions about what happened on your land. You'd probably be a much better Detectorist or Treasure Hunter if you'd bother to get a little Humility about what you do!



-Buckles

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Buckles, no, no one is making fun of those "with college degrees". Only those "with college degrees" that say no one should ever be allowed to keep things he finds with a detector

The rest of your post has to do with private property, not public property. So what's your point?

 

[BuckleBoy]

Don't worry Buckles! 

Some of the biggest idiots I've ever met have college degrees.   

Yes, and it sucks when idiots are in charge, Regardless of their "qualifications!"  Their education--or lack thereof--is NOT an factor in whether they are intelligent or not, or whether they treat us with respect.  There are good apples and bad apples on both sides, as plehbah said. 

As detectorists, we do know a lot about what we do.  We know a lot about relics, dating them, preserving them--and yet this knowledge is not as widespread as we'd hope it would be.  There is no class required in order for someone to go to Wal-Mart and pull a detector down off the shelf, turn it on, and get swinging.  Although perhaps there should be when we think about the amount of damage that is done to our hobby by detectorists not following the Code of Ethics!  Where is the line?  How "qualified" should we be?  Qualified enough to not get arrested for digging bullets on the Gettysburg Battlefield at night?  Qualified enough to fill in our holes?  On the other end of the spectrum, do we know how to collect pollen or look at the stratification of a site?  No.  Do we care about these things?  No.


I find it impossible to participate in this hobby without a sense of Deep Gratitude for every hunt, every find, every site.  The Respect for what I find, the knowledge I've learned about what I dig--to me, that goes along with a passion.  Folks ought to be Curious about things they enjoy.  They should want to learn about them.  If folks possessed this desire, then we wouldn't have to worry about Silly Degrees or Education so much, would we?  Want to talk about Qualifications?  I have a strong conviction that the folks that Care enough to Learn about our hobby are Qualified to recover just about anything in a non-protected site in our country.  Now do you think I look down upon anyone who doesn't know what a suspender clip is?  (My behavior on this forum during the past several years should tell you the answer to that one.)  What I would like is for everyone to get educated (don't worry--no classes--no silly degree!) and be the best Researcher, the best Hunter, the best Detectorist, the best at Recovery, and the best Preservationist they can be.  Is that too large of a task?  If we all acted responsibly, if we all Shared our finds by posting them here as a record of our common history, if we all cared for, respected, and preserved what we found so that it would last into the future--then what could be said against us?  But the reality is that there are looters with detectors on the West Bank, there are folks acting like it's their Right to recover gold on Government Land, and there is Timmy who just bought a Wal-Mart detector and is leaving open holes in Aunt Alma's yard.