Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is Whites

[mgtmadness]

Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

The DFX Transmits 16, according to this.
http://www.kellycodetectors.com/whites/dfx-kinfo.htm

 

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[godisnum1]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

Isn't that pretty much what Minelab has been doing all along... except for 12 frequencies less than Minelab's machines?
Not trying to start any arguments. I use a White's and a Minelab... though my White's isn't the DFX model.
I do think it's cool that White's is using this technology though!! I think it's gotta get tiring digging down SO DEEP though...

Bran <><

 

[mgtmadness]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

How long has the DFX been out? Longer than the Explorer?

If the White's transmits 16, and only uses 2 for the DFX, I wonder if Minelab's machines work the same way. Transmits 28 but only uses 3 or so of the strongest ones.
One's closest to what silver coins like the best, that is why ML find silver pretty well.

 

[GibH]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

I hadn't seen anyone claim they were. A Fisher CZ-20 and 21 are dual frequency as well. Minelabs are what, 17 for BBS and 28 for FBS?

 

[Sandman]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

I hadn't seen anyone claim they were. A Fisher CZ-20 and 21 are dual frequency as well. Minelabs are what, 17 for BBS and 28 for FBS?

Well said GibH.........They may trasmit more than they receive........

 

[therover]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

I believe they do transmit more than they receive. And it may be that the Minelabs utilize the frequencies best for silver, while the DFX utilizes the ones best for gold, hence the reason the Explorer hits harder on silver and the DFX better on gold.

I do know my DFX, especially in 15kHz mode, has found more gold than my Minelabs. It's actually found more gold on the beaches than my Excal. Then again, I have used the DFX more on the beach since I had it about a year longer.

It may not be a depth demon, and you do need to set it up right to go deep, but it's one heck of an all around unit once you learn it.

 

[gleaner1]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

I think the target signal has the same frequency as the transmitted signal. If so, you would think the machine would be able to receive any frequency it transmits .

 

[old_goldchaser]

Reading the info on that link has helped explain some things for me

First, when I was reading some of the literature and other stuff on the DFX, some of the things mentioned on frequency didnt make sense to me if transmitting only 2 frequencies. It didnt jive with my understanding of the detector and other things that had been said. That link to that info is the first time that I have actually seen the graph and the information contained below and it set the light bulb on. It actually explains what was happening with the DFX and makes sense out of the jumble of info or I should say lack of information on how it does handle the frequencies. Thanks for posting that link. The info was clear, concise and easily understandable.

Its the same type of transmission protocol as used by the Infinium, the multiple frequencies used by it though I think the processing of them is handled differently...but I could be wrong on that. I dont think the LS processes down to 2 of the best or correlates them any. The biggest difference is one is a VLF and the other a pulse though both are multi-frequency machines. I just wonder if there is a differnce in how the frequencies are handled by each other because one is PI and the other isnt. I dont know if I am even making sense right now. Been up most of the night. Punch drunk from lack of sleep.

 

[GibH]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

No matter the number of TRANSMIT frequencies, don't think of the machine as RECEIVING a certain range or number of frequencies. It RECEIVES as many different frequencies as there are targets in the ground, each sending there own little specific frequency. Multiple frequency machines TRANSMIT multiple frequencies INTO the ground because higher and lower TRANSMIT frequencies have advantages and disadvantages, depending on target composition and depth. The best target ID technology today is based on analyzing a huge array of RECEIVED frequencies, no matter if they were excited by one, two or fifty TRANSMIT frequencies. Each target has its own frequency, depending on alloy. Which is why we enjoy Target ID....up to a certain depth.

You are confusing frequency shift with phase shift. The frequency transmitted doesn't change when it hits a target. I copied this from somewhere because it says it better than I can.

How does a VLF metal detector distinguish between different metals? It relies on a phenomenon known as phase shifting. Phase shift is the difference in timing between the transmitter coil's frequency and the frequency of the target object. This discrepancy can result from a couple of things:

Inductance - An object that conducts electricity easily (is inductive) is slow to react to changes in the current. You can think of inductance as a deep river: Change the amount of water flowing into the river and it takes some time before you see a difference.

Resistance - An object that does not conduct electricity easily (is resistive) is quick to react to changes in the current. Using our water analogy, resistance would be a small, shallow stream: Change the amount of water flowing into the stream and you notice a drop in the water level very quickly.

Basically, this means that an object with high inductance is going to have a larger phase shift, because it takes longer to alter its magnetic field. An object with high resistance is going to have a smaller phase shift.

Phase shift provides VLF-based metal detectors with a capability called discrimination. Since most metals vary in both inductance and resistance, a VLF metal detector examines the amount of phase shift, using a pair of electronic circuits called phase demodulators, and compares it with the average for a particular type of metal. The detector then notifies you with an audible tone or visual indicator as to what range of metals the object is likely to be in.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

I know when I owned my Whites Beach Hunter ID which used 2 frequencies, it had a Minelab Patent number on it, and I even posted a thread about it 3 years ago. Whites may be doing the same thing with the DFX.

Their page is confusing. if you click the "Click here to go to DFX Metal Detector main page" (http://www.kellycodetectors.com/whites/whites-eseries-DFX.htm)
it says "White's patented multi frequency method partners with the target I. D. you get only from DFX to “see through” minerals in the ground and detect coins, jewelry and relics other detectors miss. Hunt in 3 kHz or 15 kHz (the two best frequencies for finding treasure) or use both together for unequalled hunting. and turn-on-and go simplicity. You're out hunting right away, but there are plenty of adjustments too."

The Beach Hunter ID used the same 2 frequencies, it had a Minelab Patent number on it.. Not sure how it works if the DFX has 16 frequencies, but you can only hunt in 2 frequencies 3 Khz or 15 Khz, or the combination of both at same time.

 

[mgtmadness]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

I wonder what they could do if White's and Minelab had joined Forces? Instead of that other company(out of India, Malaysia, China) who ever they are.

I'm worried about what will happen if I get a ML. Will I have to send it across the ocean in the future? Will the ONLY ML Repair shop in the USA close down?
Will there warranty change for the worse? Will they start using cheap Plastics and connectors/wires/PC Boards?
Will I have to spend 50 dollars(Shipping) and be charged 30 for the screen, if I scratch my Screen? Then be charged another 50 to ship it back to me?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

I wonder what they could do if White's and Minelab had joined Forces? Instead of that other company(out of India, Malaysia, China) who ever they are.

I'm worried about what will happen if I get a ML. Will I have to send it across the ocean in the future? Will the ONLY ML Repair shop in the USA close down?
Will there warranty change for the worse? Will they start using cheap Plastics and connectors/wires/PC Boards?
Will I have to spend 50 dollars(Shipping) and be charged 30 for the screen, if I scratch my Screen? Then be charged another 50 to ship it back to me?

The "other" company you say is not out of India, Malaysia or China... Plexus is an an American company, home office is here in America, Codan which owns Minelab, already has some of their equipment made there. Plexus has plants all over the world including Malaysia...Construction of the circuit boards being built there, but they have to meet standars set by the company, an American company..

"Plexus is an industry leader in providing comprehensive Design, Manufacturing, Supply Chain and Fulfillment services to many of the world's top defense, aerospace and homeland security companies. With ISO and AS9100 certified facilities in North America, Asia and Europe, Plexus is focused on meeting the technically challenging, long life cycle, high mix, low volume and high reliability product and manufacturing requirements of customers. For sensitive programs within the US, Plexus provides customer support through ITAR compliant Design and Manufacturing facilities.

Product Experience
Commercial Avionics
Defense Avionics
Defense/Security Vehicular Electronics
Radar/Optical Sensors and Electronics
Electronic Warfare/Information Warfare Systems
Ruggedized/High Reliability Systems
Command/Control/Communication Systems
SATCOM Systems
Missiles/Defense Systems
Security Screening and Identification Systems

With over 25 years experience delivering technically complex engineering and manufacturing solutions, Plexus is well positioned to provide cost effective, mission critical solutions to Defense, Aerospace and Homeland Security customers worldwide." http://www.plexus.com/defensesecurityaerospace.php

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

I wonder what they could do if White's and Minelab had joined Forces? Instead of that other company(out of India, Malaysia, China) who ever they are.

I'm worried about what will happen if I get a ML. Will I have to send it across the ocean in the future? Will the ONLY ML Repair shop in the USA close down?
Will there warranty change for the worse? Will they start using cheap Plastics and connectors/wires/PC Boards?
Will I have to spend 50 dollars(Shipping) and be charged 30 for the screen, if I scratch my Screen? Then be charged another 50 to ship it back to me?

LOL, sounds like you worry a lot.....Minelabs detectors sold overseas through American dealers are sent to Las Vegas for repairs.....

Plexus, is a world renown manufactoring company and have plants overseas because the labor is less, that does not mean the quality of the work is less.....Plexus is a global leader in contract manufacturing, with a significant presence in the manufacturing and assembly of high-technology systems for the medical device and aerospace
industries.

Personally I am not concerned at all......

 

[extractor]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

Smoken good thread to follow along

 

[U.K. Brian]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

Its not what the machine transmits its what it does with the returned signal. Pulse machines transmit 91 but they don't exactly give the best discrimination.

Re the DFX/Beach Hunter ID Whites licenced the rights to use the original Minelab three frequency design (which Minelab dropped) but only implemented two frequencies. I assume Fisher did the same for their CZ series but Minelab was first.

 

[old_goldchaser]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

Hey Brian, just replied to you in another thread...and included info about this thread...

And you are right. But the DFX does use the information from the other frequencies in correlating the harmonics information obtained with the utilized 2 frequiencies. That small amount of information on that page totally turned on the light as far as my understanding of the DFX is concerned. All of a sudden, everything that I had read and been told, both in books, magazines and discussions about the DFX and its technology suddenly made sense. I had been puzzled by the technical info that I had been able to read but it just didnt...well...make sense isnt the term...it just wasnt clear, at least to me. Especially how it got and used the information and why those two frequencies and not others. The return harmonics generated by those 16 frequencies hiting any targets would provide a tremendous amount of information, as we know because of the way minelab is made and how its detectors utilize many multiple frequencies.

PI's generate mulitiple frequencies but it cant use them as ULF detectors because of the frequencies used and the method of transmision. Thats why PI detectors mostly suck at being able to discriminate out targets. The infinium LS does have basic discrimination...and it still isnt that great but it works OK at being able to tone ID certain types of targets with that discrimination. I know...I have one. As well as the DFX. Both are good machines but each is best in its own area of detecting use. I use my DFX for coin/jewlery searches, and some reic...and the infinium, well, for some relic and then beach/water hunts and for gold/prospecting. And I also have a GTI 2500 that I use as well. Its a good all around detector but is best, in my mind, in parks and coin shooting and jewelery. I do have one dispute with all three. Their weight. They are all heavy detectors. I am looking at getting maybe a minelab explorer so go a bit lighter...and have even been considering going for the Garret ACE 250. Might be a lower end, but it accually works very well and has a large following that swear by it...surprisingly large for such an inexpensive detector. It has alot of features, even some that some higher end detectors dont have. And its light. I figure at the price, for the features and its tested ability, it would be great for those days when my arm has gotten tired of swinging the heavier ones of mine.

Its not what the machine transmits its what it does with the returned signal. Pulse machines transmit 91 but they don't exactly give the best discrimination.

Re the DFX/Beach Hunter ID Whites licenced the rights to use the original Minelab three frequency design (which Minelab dropped) but only implemented two frequencies. I assume Fisher did the same for their CZ series but Minelab was first.

 

[bodhi3]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

I beg you pardon if I make some english mistakes. I'm Italian and I'll try to write in your language at my best.

Relating to the White's DFX VS Minelab FBS/BBS Technology....
Well... I can absolutely state that DFX is a real dual frequency VLF operating in the frequency domain while the Minelab

FBS/BBS technology is a patented very smart and effective Time-Domain one.
What does it means?
It's not so simple but I'll try to explain in poor words.
Usually single frequency VLF detectors use simple sinus waves to generate the Trasmit Electromagnetic field. This is the simplest way to do that.
You have to know that DFX uses a square wave generator to create the needed TX electromagnetic field. What's the main issue of a square wave signal? The most interesting part is that this waveform is the result of the ideal sum of lots of simple sinus waves. So actually the DFX trasmits more than just 2 frequencies: it is trasmitting literally an infinite quantity of them! The most important (the one with sensitive energy could be counted around 55)
Btw no all of them have the same amount of importance for our purposes. There is a dominant frequency and lots and lots of "harmonics" waves (even if it's not technically correctr, you can think about these as some sort of echoes of the major signal wave). White's have choosen the 3 KHz and the 15Khz harmonics out of the bunch because they've proven to be very sensitive and effective for the kind of search we're usually interested (read coin-shooting and gold hunting). Actually they could not be considered THE BEST OF THE BEST but they really are a good compromise.
After trasmitting this peculiar "square wave - based" magnetic field, with all those harmonics involved, the receive coil constantly hear for the signal. As already mentioned in the previous posts, in VLF operated detectors, the metallic targets modify the transmitted signal introducing a variable (related to the various kind of targets) "PHASE DELAY". The received signal is STILL a composite wave that incorporates all the mentioned harmonics but, in case of a target interaction, they are somehow modified with the introduction of a phase delay. Note!!! Different harmonics could be less or more effected by this phase delay modification. That's why you have different VDI readings of the same target using 3 Khz OR 15 Khz!
When the signal is received, the DFX main unit preamplify it and then demodulate it to extract the 3Khz and the 15 Khz harmonics. Since then the two signals are processed and the VDI displayed etc etc etc.. Please note that the data processing is ALWAYS done FOCUSING ON FREQUENCY VARIATIONS...That's way I called this "In the Frequency Domain".

Minelab FBS/BBS operates in a very different way. The related registered patent is about the use of a "multi-period rectangular wave" and the processing in the "Time Domain".
Your Etrac, Explorer, Safari etc.. just trasmit a "train" or rectangular waves that have variabile lenght. They could be tought as variable intensity "pulses" very similar to Pulse Induction Metal Detecting Technology.
Rectangular multi-period waves are formed in the same way of the square waves used in the DFX. They both are ideally formed by millions and millions of basic sinus waves. If you could see a ETRAC generated wave in your oscilloscope you could see this variable lenght rectangular shape repeating in the time continuosly like a train. If you analyze this "train" you could pull out 33 major waves (the dominant harmonics with sensitive energy) together with the million others.
Minelab FBS marketing ads claim that 28 are used while BBS only uses 17. Probably Minelab decided that the remaining 5 or 16 could be left out due to signal weakness or redundancy.

Now the most interesting part...

While VLF continuosly monitor the phase delay introduced by metallic targets in the trasmitted wave, the FBS/BBS acts this way:
1) The first "Wagon" of the pulse train is emitted. Imagine is a 3.5 Khz signal. When this wave stops and the signal fall the receiving coil listen to what's happening to the trasmitted signal sampling it AFTER the stop of the first wagon "AT LEAST THREE TIMES". So It's not monitoring the phase delay but it's reading the SIGNAL DECAY AFTER EACH WAGON!!!
Each wagon has different lenght and this implies different frequency harmonics but... BUT... IT'S NOT THE FREQUENCY THAT MATTERS!!! IT'S THE DECAY OF THE SIGNAL AFTER EACH PULSE!!! ATTENTION PLEASE! "Targets have different signal decay when interacting with different frequency magnetic fields"!!!
As you can imagine this could remind you the PULSE INDUCTION technology and, actually, it's a sort of hybrid.
The most important issue is the STUDY OF THE VARIATIONS AS THE TIME PASSES!! That's why FBS is called "Time Domain" Operating Technology. In the PI the sampling technique is slightly different. All the pulse wagons are transmitted, then the power is off and then the sampling begins. In the FBS the sampling/analysis is done after every single "wagon".

We're near the end buddies...

The FBS, after the interactions with different wagons, do compare the different reations with some equations results previously computed. This cross analysis could lead the machine to correctly identify the target due to different reactions to different pulses. You can imagine that doing all this analisys can need a big amount of CPU resources. That's why Minelab FBS models are quite famous for not be so swift in reaction speed.

So, in conclusion, FBS cannot be called a REAL MULTIFREQUENCY detector because it just doesn't focus on that! And also the analysis is, as far as you could read from the official patent, is not simultaneous but it is consecutive.

For any of you interested in "WHY FBS AND PULSE INDUCTION WORK THAT WAY?", please ask... I'll be happy to try to put it the easy way...

Before I go, please forgive if I've made some mistakes and I've not always used the most proper tech-names... It was just for the clarity...

Happy VLF-FBS Hunting!
Bodhi3

 

[vet67coupe]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

Man what a great topic I got about 80% of the last post very interesting.......so between the whites and minelab which would do you prefer and think would do the best job, or would a minelab on steroids really be the best choice. Have owned xlt, minelab sovereign, minelab explorer and a tesoro i think it was a lobo. The xlt was fantastic on id and I really got into the programming. I had a silver ring program where I had scanned in every ring my second wife had and that was quite a few. It proved worth it more times than one to be useful in finding rings. The only catch IN REAL MINERAL SOIL LIKE WV AND KY couldn't ever get it to go deeper than 5 inches at the most. And it could have been something I missed in the tuning. Now enters the minelabs sovereign nice but seemed slow like you said needed a bigger cpu. Well the explorer was fantastic nice and deep but always seemed like I couldn't ever get use to it like the xlt. So which one does everybody like and the tesoro just got to use to a meter I guess.......BiLL

 

[old_goldchaser]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

I think I may have got 90 percent of what BODHI3 said there, and his english had nothing to do with it. He did a good job. And I am an engineer, or was. I followed most of what he was saying.

As to your question Bill, alot of my preferences btween the DFX and the minelabs is more subjective. And BOD was definately right in that the minelabs are not known for their recovery speed. I had a Safari for a time...and traded it for an ETRAC as fast as I could. That was a bigger problem with the safari than I liked or could tolerate. The etrac has an upgraded cpu so it doesnt have as slow a recovery speed now as the previous models and other models in the minelab series. Basically the technology has caught up with the expectations in the etrac. Target ID on the etrac is great. I own one..and I have owned the DFX. I do prefer the etrac. Depth I would rate them as both similar. Target ID is where the excal has an edge of the DFX. Same on the safari. Its ID has an edge over the DFX.

That being said, the new V3i has some stuff that is going to make it a heck of a competitor. I have not used one but eventually I will get one. Waiting for there to be more out there so used prices will come down.
But will I give up my minelabs? Not on your life. I have the etrac, and am getting an excalibur and I have an Xterra 705. I have owned many of the whites models, the MXT, DFX, 5900 DI Pro, Classic 1, II and III and others. The Garrett models I have owned, for the groundhog ADS up the the GTI 2500. Owned the CXIII, CX II and others in the masterhunter series and others. Its the Fisher and Tesoro that I have never owned any. I do have an Omega 8000 right now that I am selling. Not because there is anything wrong with it...but it just isnt for me. It doesnt fit. About the only way I have to describe it.

 

[PENNYHUNTER]

Re: Minelab is not the ONLY, Multi-Frequency Metal Detector.So is White's

minelab owns the patten on the DFX..... Whites pays them a royalty for every detector sold. And that is from a minlab rep.... So if the DFX is better why would minlab sell it?

I have never ran A DFX but I know allot of you guy find allot of good stuff with them. Im not nocking them at all. but it seams like every one is always trying to find a BETTER detector when I think we ALL should take the time to learn the one you have.