Request for info -> John Kochera

[Ashton Page]

I'm trying to locate information re: John Kochera and the ore he found.

Glover's work mentions him breifly and alludes to two letters that Kochera wrote. Any ideas on how I can get copies of the Kochera letters?

Thanks in Advance,

Ashton

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

I have information about John Kochera that only a few people know of. It's not anything that I will ever post on a public forum, and seldom share in private. If you don't mind my asking, why the interest in Kochera?

It has been fairly obvious, to me, that you are no newbe to Dutch Hunting. That being what I feel is the case, it seems likely that you are someone I know, or know of.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Ashton Page]

Hi Joe,

I should have figured that a request for info regarding Kochera would raise some eyebrows. I was hoping to slip under the radar on this one.

Why am I asking? I'm trying to tie up some loose ends in my theory. I figure that if I'm going to re-write history, I had better have all my ducks in a row. But the truth is - I am no closer than anyone else. So whatever I have, it's only a theory at this point.

You're not the first to allude that I don't appear to be a newbie. All I can say is that February of this year I downloaded "101 Clues" to the LDM and that was the beginning of (what my ex tells me is) a very unhealthy obsession with uncovering the history of the LDM. Scouts honor, I've only been researching lost mines (LDM included) for 6 months. If I sound like an old hand at this, well thanks! I’m flattered.

I'm sure that you've seen my posts on the other forum. I hope that wasn't a faux pas to reference another forum. No, we haven't met. I hope to meet y'all some day, but the way things are going I don't see that happening until next year at the rendezvous. Too many irons in the fire to make it this year..... dang it. Probably just as well, my theory is only half complete (some would say half-baked) give me some time to work out the kinks in my ideas and who knows - maybe I will be able write that book after all.

All the Best,

Ashton

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

"I should have figured that a request for info regarding Kochera would raise some eyebrows. I was hoping to slip under the radar on this one."

If you are just asking for non-specific info' regarding Kochera, why would that raise any eyebrows. The Kochera story can be found in many places/books. If you would like a list of the books, I will be happy to provide one.

"Why am I asking? I'm trying to tie up some loose ends in my theory. I figure that if I'm going to re-write history, I had better have all my ducks in a row. But the truth is - I am no closer than anyone else. So whatever I have, it's only a theory at this point."

OK, I would also like to help you tie up those loose ends. What do you want to know about the story, that you haven't found at DesertUSA or here? I won't be able to provide you with the private information I have, but I am familiar with Ron's story.

The best thing to do, is go to the other two forums, as well as here, and do a search for "Kochera".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Ashton Page]

Hi Joe,

A list of the books referencing Kochera would be appreciated. In particular, I would be interested in reading verbatim anything he wrote.

I believe Haywood may have left some markers when he covered his find. That’s my reason for asking.

Thank You,
Ashton

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

There are a number of book that make small reference to the Kochera story, but I can't remember any that have more information than this post from Kraig Roberts:

[Just got back home last evening after a few days away tending to business, I promised a few folks replies and will try and properly reply now.

It is hard to explain where I was coming from with my post concerning Silas Edwards and how it is related to the Kochera account. To understand you must go back and read that post then read what Cochera wrote in a letter dated April 4, 1974. (12 years after Cochera had found the Gold).

Kochera had been corresponding with Robert Jacob and one of his letters contained this unedited passage;

"In 1960 I met an Apache indian named Haywood, he was from the Verde river country in Arizona. He was in Milwaukee going to vocational school the government sent him to along with some others. We became good friends and one night he was over at my house and we got drinking heavy. I started talking about finding gold in Mexico and then he told me this."

In the Spring of 1942, he and 14 other men went on horses up the salt river to Labarge canyon. Then up Labarge canyon to sqaw canyon. They turned up squaw canyon, passed by the box canyon on the north side of the three red hills. Then turned nort about 1 mile and turned west to a hill north of the box canyon. There is a tunnel at the south base of the hill, with brush and small trees hideing it. They then went to the top of the hill and uncovered a pit. They took out about $50,000 in gold. When they left they covered the pit again. The vein of gold in in a soft black rock an on both sides of the black vein is red rock."

"Haywood was 37 years old when I met him. He believed strongly that something bad would happen if he told a white man but since I am indian he thought it would be alright. In July 1960 (2 months after Haywood told Cochera the story) he and another guy was killed in a head on crash with a trailer truck."

----------

It is impossible to follow those directions based on modern topo maps of the area and the description given. One has to take into account that the three Red Hills on the modern topo maps were named by Forest Service workers for no apparant reason other than they knew there were 3 Red Hills in the area and they were either mis informed as to their location or like many other misidentifed places on there topo's, they simply took a guess. The 3 Red Hills Cochera mentions in his letter is the correct 3 Red Hills. There are actually two hills, one of the hills has a saddle which makes it appear as a seperate hhill. The red color is a band of ferrous rock near their base that in the late afternoon at sundown highlights the reddish color.

Cochera's letter speaks as if there is a vein which would indicate a mine present. Joe, I believe you brought up the debate of if there is a mine or not. I have no opinion one way or the other on that issue, it really doesn't matter in the context of the Silas Edwards post other than it would be an interesting added fact.

LDM]

Now this is interesting because, these letters surfaced after the death of Crazy Jake. What makes it especially interesting for me, is that Jake never mentioned Kochera in his manuscript. Pretty good story for Jake to leave out. I may have more information somewhere.

Did the ore that has been displayed come from Kochera, or somewhere else?

Hope this helps you.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Wow!

I am a little surprised that no one has responded to my last post. I thought it raised some very interesting questions.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Ashton Page]

Joe,

Thanks for your reply, I owe you one.
It is clear to me now that I am not at Kochera’s find.

>> Did the ore that has been displayed come from Kochera, or somewhere else?

Must have come from somewhere else because the picture of the ore is not what Kochera described.

NOTE: To others following this conversation, here is the link to the picture:
http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/gallery2/v/Rogers-Album/Picture_1.png.html


“If the gold is not where it is supposed to be, then it must be somewhere else.” Hunting Bear.

Best,
Ashton

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

No replies because you didn't tell the "other" directions he gave? "the vein of gold is in a........"

I'm making the assumption (I could be wrong) that anyone else that has anything besides what is written by Tom K or the other well-known sources, isn't going to say anything beyond that.


Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

I am at work right now but, as I recall, it's in a black matrix. If that's so, the "Kochera Ore" that has been seen in pictures is not Kochera's. Are we surprised?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

Just for the record, any story about Kochera that includes letters that were sent to Jake Jacob, are likely a complete fabrication. This is true of many stories that have been out in recent years. The problem is not with the authors, but there source.

It always comes down to reliable sources......doesn't it?

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

Are you surprised that a story may have "kinks" in it? Certainly not, I'm sure. But, like I said, I think that anyone that has any "extra" possible
information or proof, would not come forward with it (unless, like I said, it was already posted somewhere like in one of Tom's articles, or things
from the AJ library, etc.).

I'm pretty sure (not positive) that the pictures I have seen of ore, is not the right ore. (of course, I've only seen a couple of pictures, and most were of the same specimens, imo).

Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

I believe every story that has ever been written about the LDM is straight as an arrow.....well, maybe a boomerang.

People have been manufacturing "proof" and evidence in the Superstitions for many, many years. I know some of those people personally.

You would think after all of these years, nothing would surprise me anymore. Have to admit I was floored a number of months ago with revelations about someone I really trusted. Made me wonder about a whole lot of history that I had accepted as Gospel.

Just kind of brought home to me, what a pushover bozo I had become.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

.... It always comes down to reliable sources......doesn't it?

Take care,

Joe

Yes, and the only reliable source was Waltz. You may not agree, but I can tell you for certain that even directions directly from Waltz's lips to your ears can very easily be misinterpretted. What is so clear to the teller does not always transfer correctly to the listener. A map, also not totally reliable, helps, but an oral account is subject to error, especially with repeated recalling/retelling.

Everyone else down the line from Waltz cannot be relied upon for reasons similar to those above, but more importantly, because of obfuscation.

 

[Cubfan64]

.... It always comes down to reliable sources......doesn't it?

Take care,

Joe

Yes, and the only reliable source was Waltz. You may not agree, but I can tell you for certain that even directions directly from Waltz's lips to your ears can very easily be misinterpretted. What is so clear to the teller does not always transfer correctly to the listener. A map, also not totally reliable, helps, but an oral account is subject to error, especially with repeated recalling/retelling.

Everyone else down the line from Waltz cannot be relied upon for reasons similar to those above, but more importantly, because of obfuscation.

Well said - I'm still searching for that elusive audiotape recording of Jacob Waltz myself, but not having much luck

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

I don't disagree with you at all. Having said that, IMHO, the best evidence remains the information that came from the combined recollections of Julia and Rhiney to Bark and Ely. From there, it all goes down hill for me. Just a whole bunch of "Hell I Was There" stories from people who came out of the woodwork after Waltz died.

The four people I just mentioned, were closest to the events and Waltz. No matter how misunderstood or convoluted the stories were, I don't see how it could get any better.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

You should have asked me. After spending many years and dollars seeking that recording, a very good source informed me I was looking for the wrong thing.........It was a video.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

You should have asked me. After spending many years and dollars seeking that recording, a very good source informed me I was looking for the wrong thing.........It was a video.

Take care,

Joe

Crap!!!

 

[somehiker]

Paul,

You should have asked me. After spending many years and dollars seeking that recording, a very good source informed me I was looking for the wrong thing.........It was a video.

Take care,

Joe

Crap!!!

Try E-Bay.There might be a few copies of the uncut version still for sale.
It has all of the bonus scenes:

Watch Jacob Waltz filter coffee with his favourite frying pan.
Hear the two Jakes après dinner,après vous performance of "Duelling Bean Toots".
Witness Dick Holmes' explanation to passerby that the candle box contains a dead cat....a very heavy dead cat.
..............................And more never before seen footage...................................................................

Regards:SH.

PS: If you order today,they will even throw in a set of Stone Map and Treasure Symbol FLASH CARDS..WOOHOO

 

[Ashton Page]

LOL !!

That's the best post I've seen. Dang, S.H. - you have some sense of humour....

still laughing...

Best,

Ashton