Sailors skeletons from Nelsons navy among thousands at Haslar...

[jeff k]

Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Archaeologists can dig up military gravesites 24/7, but they cry foul when treasure hunters try to salvage a military vessel.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/Sailors39-skeletons-from-Nelson39s-navy.6294910.jp

 

[Salvor6]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

I AM OUTRAGED! What hypocrites those bastards are. They desecrate hallowed ground and get away with it? Did you see Phil Harding's picture? He looks like a typical grave robber! If I knew where his fathers grave was, I would dig that up too.

 

[mariner]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

I agree with the comments about hypocrisy. I am sure that all responsible salvagers of wrecks treat potential skeletal remains with respect.

However, I think there is a great deal to be learned from old bones. When I lived in Chester, in the UK, I attended an archaeological course, and the practical experienced was gained from the excavation of a field just outside Chester where a Roman villa and graveyard had been found. Examination of the skeletal remains led to much information about life and the causes of death at that time, and I did not feel that it was desecration to take part in the excavations.

Mariner

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Mariner: I agree, similar to an autopsy in a murder case. But just where did this business of 'honoring a batch of discarded bones come from?

The Parts of a body are being replaced all of the time, I believe that every 6 months your body has had every cell replaced, also how many bodies have had amputations or various organs replaced or excised? Should we honor each of the discarded essential parts, or only the final remains? If so why?

In the case of the sailors, no one honored them in life - "they were expendable" - so why make a fuss when they are dead, whether on a sunken ship, battle field, or in an unmarked mass grave from the hospital?

Any useable materiel such as precious metals etc, should be returned for usage, this way it will benefit many, rather than no one, and in this way honor the deceased.

Our Cappy can have my skull if he wants it to drink his wine with, although it wouldn't give him a very large serving, also he should be certain that a bit of forcefully donated Japanese metal is removed before using it..

Don Jose de La Mnacha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Mariner: One Christmas I received a box as a present from my b-in-law. I opened it, there was another, and another == Inside of the last box was a human skull.

It was in perfect condition and a bit oily. But the remarkable feature was that the forhead had been flattened almost half way back.

There was a husband and wife team from a NE University doing some anthropology here, so naturally I took the skull to them for evaluation and as a present if it was of any value to them.

They were very excited and took prob 50 photographs of it in all positions with a calibrated measuring
ruler behind it. They told me that they would love to have it, but the Mexican permit that they were operating under forbid anything leaving Mexico.

They told me that this represented an unknown culture of flat heads in this region. I then asked them "what can you tell me abut it"? They matter of fact'ly said "it was a young woman about 22 and that she had had two pregnancies, that she belonged to a previously unknown culture and had a very deficient diet. and of course that she had been buried in a cave".

How, I asked?? They said that her bone showed certain mineral deficiency's, and that her age was calculated by the development of the Carnial sutures, the pregnancies from the calcium depletion lines. simple huh?

So yes, a lot can be learned by a physical examination.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. wanna talka bout 9 - 10 ft. giants and small statured peeps, 3 - 4 ft that are here also?

 

[Alexandre]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Well, I had my share of paleobiological courses in my Arch. studies, learning how to deal with bones (age and gender determination, pathologies, etc.).

And, you know, the people excavating the mass graves in Spain, from Franco's time, are archaeologists as are a lot of people that are doing the so called battlefield archaeology (here's a nice read: http://www.bajr.org/documents/bajrbattleguide.pdf)

Of course, trying to compare a bone-trained archaeologist with a treasure hunter is like trying to compare a surgeon with a witch doctor..

 

[mariner]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Alexandre,

I think you are missing the point. I think the original posting compared the fact that it is often argued that a wreck cannot be recovered because people died on it, and it is a grave site, but archaeologists can deliberately dig up graves because they say it is in the pursuit of knowledge. Museums like the Smithsonian have lots of funereal objectives that were removed, for example, from Native American graves where the objective was to recover those objects, not to examine the bones.

No treasure hunter salvages a wreck in order to recover human remains, and it is quite possible to conduct underwater recovery in a way that tries to avoid disturbing any remains.

Mariner

 

[Darren in NC]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

...paleobiological courses...

So would this make trained archies a bunch of boneheads?

I couldn't help myself I do, however, richly support cultural and anthropological studies. It's important to know our past as we look forward to our future. The arrogance and hypocrisy of hiding behind a piece of paper doesn't sit well with me, though. If both sides could set aside their hypocrisy, we might create some great self-funded studies that would benefit all mankind.

 

[itmaiden]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

I don't believe in disturbing known gravesites. The dead need to be allowed to rest from their lives.
Underwater shipwrecks where the presence of someone is unknown is different, but if a skeleton is found underwater the person should be treated with respect. I do not believe in collecting skulls or any other body part as a souvenir. There is plenty of information of what is killing humans now, that is ignored by the FDA so what good is learning what killed someone who has been dead for hundreds or thousands of years ? Will it change the cancer causing chemicals in our drinking water, the cancer causing nitrates and sulfates in our foods, the poisons in vaccines, the dangers of pharmaceutical drugs, or the tobacco smoke that many make others breath in and get sick from ?

Leave the dead alone. And consider whatever you dig up may be more than treasure, it may be old epidemics that could wipe out present civilizations.

itmaiden

I agree with the comments about hypocrisy. I am sure that all responsible salvagers of wrecks treat potential skeletal remains with respect.

However, I think there is a great deal to be learned from old bones. When I lived in Chester, in the UK, I attended an archaeological course, and the practical experienced was gained from the excavation of a field just outside Chester where a Roman villa and graveyard had been found. Examination of the skeletal remains led to much information about life and the causes of death at that time, and I did not feel that it was desecration to take part in the excavations.

Mariner

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Good evening Alexandre: You posted --> Of course, trying to compare a bone-trained archaeologist with a treasure hunter is like trying to compare a surgeon with a witch doctor..
***********
Being a former pre-med, I tend to agree with you and to also add that comparing a bone trained archaeologist to a Surgeon is just about the same factor or ratio. Each have their place.

I am an unapologetic, unrepentant, treasure hunter as well as an amateur Archaeologist. I am in the process of rewriting north western Mexican, western Us history, and involvement of the Jesuits in mining, smuggling, and international intrigue, discovered through my search for treasure.

Why haven't the archaeologist's found this data?

Where are the archaeologists that should be responding to my data on the near by burial caves of the 8-10 ft red haired giants as well as a diminutive group of 3 -4 ft.

There are many things that I have reported which have simply been ignored.

As for marine archaeology I have data on ships, a WW-2 German submarine located in Mexican waters, a merchant ship that went aground in the early 1800's, the crew and passengers served as a grand, continuing smorgasbord for the Series while they lasted, and among others the missing Zimmerman Gold from Germany's bribery attempt to keep the US out of WW-1, Morgan's loot from Panama relatively closely located, however, most of this later data has been passed on to one of our members in here for his exclusive try at recovery if he wishes, and on.

So as you can see, archaeologists, and, err, ah, treasure hunters / salvors can profit by mutual cooperation which isn't forth coming. Don't ever downplay education, intelligence, or morals of salvors or treasure hunters, many have just as high, or higher, as well an equal or higher IQ as Archaeologists.

Can you give me one reason why I should pass on my data accumulated over the years?

Incidentally, I am a duly elected member of the elete Explorers Club.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Panfilo]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

The troubling point that Jeff is bringing up, at least as I perceive it, and not identified by Alexandre nor by most of his colleagues (fortunately not all) is that one gets the impression that the argument of not permitting the recovery of a shipwreck on the grounds that the human remains are being desecrated is not entirely true nor is it applicable to all disciplines. For instance if you read Spain’s arguments in regard to the Mercedes case, this is presented as a very strong argument, the defense of the memory of the people that died there. Well if you look at the videos and the photos in detail and read the archeological reports by much respected scientists, there are no human remains present. First off the explosion must of dissipated into atoms 80% of the human remains (as well as the ship) and the rest was either eaten up by the fish and decomposed in the 200 years that have passed.

Reason would dictate that if one were to compare this case to its modern counterpart, suppose ones grandfather dies in a car accident and sinks into a shallow lake but is not found. Would it be desecrating his memory if ten years later one were to find the car with some bones and one would recover his gold watch? I wouldn’t think so, doesn’t seam like Grandpa would mind as nothing was done against his memory, on the contrary. Now there are ways someone can purposely desecrate a grave…that’s different. Taking the example a bit farther and in real terms, the Mercedes: does one think (Alexandre one would suppose will say yes) that general Diego de Alvear y Ponce de Leon, who lost his wife and seven children aboard the Mercedes in 1804, would feel that his family’s gravesite was being desecrated if his great great great great grandoughter Mathilde Daireaux y Kinski and her two sisters (they are claiming this presently) are claiming and want to recover the silver tea set that probably belonged to their family and can be seen in Odyssey’s videos? Somehow I get the feeling that if one could ask this fascinating character in the other world he would say, go ahead my children, recover our family’s things from the loneliness of the ocean floor and put it in a place that the whole family can see it and remember us, and my wife and children who died there, everytime you see that silver tea set. Others believe this is desacrating the memory of the ones lost at sea.
Panfilo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Panfilo my friend : *****, I agree 100%. And all valuables could be returned to the gerneral usage in the name of the group or individual. Every one benefits.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Panfilo]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Admirable credentials don Jose de la Mancha, don't let anyone tell you different!

I just found out a curious fact after reading a fascinating book this week researching the Cordoba fleet, that the first copies of the Don Quijote de la Mancha book that came to America came in the same Cordoba 1605 fleet from Spain. Just remembered when I saw your name. Saludos,
Panfilo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Good evening Panfilo my friend: You have tapped the secret of my nickname Don Quixote de la Mancha tilted windmills, I tilt exaggerated, or abusive egos.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Chagy]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Man I am sitting here eating Chocolate Rice Krispies with milk and thinking to my self: who would believe that a person like me that never liked school would become so educated in history by searching for treasure. The first copies of Don Quijote de la Mancha came in the Cordoba’s fleet….Amazing!!!! We live and learn every single day….

And in the graveyard subject all I can say in my humble opinion is that: One thing is to go and dig in a graveyard ( which I think is wrong) and another thing is to find human remains on an archeological site. Human remains should be respected, how ever in some cases they should be examined so we ca learn from the past, obviously as long as you do it with respect.

By the way Joseph now you know who to thank for your nick mane, Don Luis de Cordoba….

All the best,

Chagy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

good morning Chagy, my very good friend: Hmm, and here I have been giving false credit to pore Cervantes. he he he

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Yes, while a small thingie historically, it was very interesting for me to learn of that

 

[Alexandre]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

it is often argued that a wreck cannot be recovered because people died on it, and it is a grave site, but archaeologists can deliberately dig up graves because they say it is in the pursuit of knowledge.

Well, that's not my argument. My opinion is that ANY archaeological site - be it a burial mound, a wreck or an ancient city - MUST be surveyed and excavated with the best practice archaeological methodology that exists at the time.

Now, another thing, entirely different, is when present society thinks that, if there are any humain remains there, that place is to be considered off limits - I am thinking of all those US Navy ships sunk in Pearl Harbour as a good example.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Good afternoon Alexandre: Obviously, to a point, I agree with you, but as of now, in 1000 years the sites in Europe alone, prob. cannot be adequately examined.

Of course 'all' artifacts encountered would be carefully measured, photographed, examined, then 'returned' to their original resting place and position for future generations to study 'En Sitio' no ? Not removed and placed in a Museum for limited viewing, profit, etc., thus destroying their mutual coexistence factor in that time and place.

Side thingie, I often wonder if there is one sq meter in Europe that doesn't have a historical significance and hence should be left completely alone until it can be examined by a qualified team.

Are you going to look at and study my red haired giants?

Incidentally, I missed Pearl Harbor by being sent to military school, but lot of my friends didn't and are still there. However, I didn't miss the Guadalcanal campaign, Aug 11 1942.

If I had been killed out there, frankly I wouldn't really care if someone used my bones for fertilizer or chicken feed supplement if they wished.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Bikerboyzx6r]

!

It all depends on how much we want to learn about history! If no-one ever dug a body or grave then we wouldnt know half of what we do today about civilisations etc...

I think it is very important to replace them better than they were found though!

HH Dan

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Sailors' skeletons from Nelson's navy among thousands at Haslar...

Afternoon biker my friend: You posted --> I think it is very important to replace them better than they were found though!
*******************
Unfortunately, even if reburied under the original strata etc., the Archaeological value is destroyed. Once anything is disturbed, that is basically it. It can never return to it's original configuration.

This is one of the many points where Alexandre and I agree.

Don Jose de La Mancha