Superstition People, Places, & Things.

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Hello Old Pueblo,

It really is a nice walk and a great view of the city. Haven`t done it in a while though. Hopefully i would make it up and back again.:hello2:

The picture of the soldier is well hard to take your eyes off. I wonder how all of this happened. Did the artist see the soldier or did he or she simply hear about him in an oral tradition. Given the detail I suspect he was actually seen.

My suspicion and it is only that is this soldier was a survivor of the holocaust and was encountered as he traveled east with a band of refugees who met up on what was to become Silver bell Road. This perhaps is plausible given the location of the discovery. Or perhaps he perished in the battles that preceded the exodus. Hard to really say. Hopefully his remains were returned to his people. I would like to believe that.

Never less he kept the gates of Rhoda safe until defeat was inevitable. And in defeat I suspect he won. Well I know he did.


Starman
 

Starman,

I'm sure that you could make it up and back with little difficulty.

The detail of the image of the soldier is incredible. In my opinion, the image doesn't look like any Native American art that I've seen. It almost looks as though it was painted by one of the survivors.
 

Starman,

I'm sure that you could make it up and back with little difficulty.

The detail of the image of the soldier is incredible. In my opinion, the image doesn't look like any Native American art that I've seen. It almost looks as though it was painted by one of the survivors.

Here's another Mimbres warrior figure painted on a burial bowl. Much of their art is well known, but the best is in private collections.

image.webp
 

Hal

In the last picture, the rose's petals are in two colours and show two crosses . Would be the religion in which they believed .
Also , in the first picture , I believe the ninth petal represents an ally . Look at his horned helmet , reminds you something ?
 

From the same excavation site in NM. Eight (8) petals.


"This Bowl is an example of Style III from the Swarts Ruin site. Swarts ruin (sometimes known as Swartz ruin) is a Mimbres village in Grants County, southwestern New Mexico, excavated during the 1920s by H.S. and C.B. Cosgrove. The site dates from about A.D. 950 to 1175 and contained the relatively undisturbed remains of numerous pit houses and several Classic Mimbres roomblocks, as well as a large assemblage of ceramics, lithics, and faunal material. Sometime after the excavations, the site was leveled."

tDAR


The same ancient rosette symbol known 28,000 years ago in the (now)Russia area, before the supposed split off and migration to the New World.
May not be as much proof of a link from the Minoan civilization (max. 5,000 years old) to the New World civilization (max 15,000(?) years old), as it is a link to a possible common orgin from 28,000 years ago.
 

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Yes, that ninth petal has me running in circles. Makes no sense when looking at all the others which are even numbers. I don't see the "helmet" that is described.

Here are two that you may find curious, specifically the "hat".


Yes , very interesting . The hats are fishes .
And the horned helmet that I mentioned :

Shield.webp
 

Hal, I had to look that up;

Archetype; a recurrent symbol or motif in literature, art, or mythology.

Yes, certainly could be just that.
 

EarnieP,
I have never been comfortable with the idea of archetypes. Cultures, isolated from one other, spontaneously developing identical symbols with similar meanings seems almost impossible to me. Archetypes, IMO, suggest unrecorded contact between distant cultures. I think they can also be used to map the spread of early explorers. Actually, we are doing just that in this conversation. Mapping an ancient archetype, the rosette symbol.

One possible explanation for the eight petal "rosette" symbol used thousands of years ago in the "(now) Russia area" and on Mimbres bowls in New Mexico can be found hidden in the word Quivira. Are you familiar with Quivira and why that name appears on early maps of North America?

I am familiar, as much as my poor memory allows, with the Coronado trek up into the (now) Kansas area looking for the golden kingdom of Quivira, based on tales from the native guide, Turk, who was later strangled for his excessive and disappointing exaggerations.
I'm also familiar with other Spanish expeditions, Onate's, and the unofficial and very ill fated expedition of Leyba and Umana (that's an interesting trek), up into the same area looking for the legendary Quivira gold.

But I am not familiar with the rosette connection with Quivira. You have piqued my interest, again. I now have something else to look into, no end to that, it seems. Thanks for the interesting leads.
 

I doubt if anyone really knows what Coronado had in mind when he used this word. It could be a contraction of two Spanish words that would translate to "what you see" in English. It may be an indigenous word describing the Indians and their lands in the areas north and east of Mexico. There are some other words found on the map example that are unknown in meaning.
 

I am familiar, as much as my poor memory allows, with the Coronado trek up into the (now) Kansas area looking for the golden kingdom of Quivira, based on tales from the native guide, Turk, who was later strangled for his excessive and disappointing exaggerations.
I'm also familiar with other Spanish expeditions, Onate's, and the unofficial and very ill fated expedition of Leyba and Umana (that's an interesting trek), up into the same area looking for the legendary Quivira gold.

But I am not familiar with the rosette connection with Quivira. You have piqued my interest, again. I now have something else to look into, no end to that, it seems. Thanks for the interesting leads.

This guy is a maverick writer, but has some interesting ideas:

Amazon.it: From Khyber (Kheeber) Pass to Gran Quivira (Kheevira), Nm and Baboquivari, Az

(Sorry, my browser got stuck on the Amazon.it site, but you can find it on Amazon.com)
 

Quivera
Found this interesting, from the 'Salinas Pueblo Missions National Monument NM' online site;

"MONUMENT OF GRAN QUIVERA: This name at one time was associated with all the unknown land W of the Mississippi and E or N of the Gulf of California. Michael Lok's 1582 map shows Quivera at the tip of the western continent with culiacan, Galicia, and Florida covering the rest of the ara between Canada and Mexico. Twitchell, 'Leading Facts of NM History, 1, 231-233, note 2150, quotes Adolph Bandelier: 'At foot of the Mesa de los Jumanos there was Tabira now famous under the misleading name of "La Gran Quivera". However, on L'Atlas Curieux (1700) both Tavira and Gran uivira are shown: Tavira E of Socorro and S of Santa Fe; Gran Quivira in large letters at the N edge of the Mar de las Californias o Carlinas (Gulf of California or Carolinas).Juan Vasquez de Coronado sought for Quivira in 1540/1542, as the country was reported to him by the Indian called The Turk. Benavides, in 1634, refers to the 'kingdom of quivira' in the west and another of the same name in the east. The references are too numerous to cite. It has been suggested that the word comes from French, cuiri, 'copper' and that Indians got the term from Jacaues Cartier, who was on the St. Lawrence before Coronado was on the Rio Grande. Professor Lansing Bloom proposed that may have been derived from the Arabic word quivir, 'big' illustrated in Spanish place names as Guadalquivir. A third etymology is a Spanish corruption of Wichita Kirkurus, named for that tribe. The great Spanish mission in Torrance County is completely disintegrated, but the earliest church was built in 1629 and the massive walls of the second church and its attached monastery and covent, on which work began about 1649, are still standing. Courtesy Sam McWhorter."
------

Did see where rosette symbol were found on some Gran Quivira (New Mexico) pottery.
 

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Another image of the Warrior:

These bowls were placed upside down on the deceased head before his burial. The painted scene was something important in his life, a warrior in this case it seems. The "kill hole" was then punched in the bottom of the bowl to allow the spirit to pass up through the head chakra, then through the bowl and on into the spirit world, with the last earthly vision being the bowl scene. It would be interesting to find a similar cosmology elsewhere in world cultures.
 

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Hello Hal,

The bowls you have posted are impressive. It is interesting how history manifests itself in many forms and ways. Perhaps what we have here is a history book that we will all be better off reading.

Well there are two things we can agree on regarding this bowl and the one with the soldier. First Travis did not create these bowls and as far as the soldier goes I suspect most will agree that he is not a local.

What then are we looking at? I believe the soldier is a defender of the city state of Calalus. This is based on two data points. One is the approximate time of its creation and the shield which bears, at least to me a rose. It seems the coming together of these two points is persuasive. Also a third point is that whoever created these bowls was dealing with something familiar which would speak to that whoever this gentlemen was he was known in some way. Seems that oldpueblo`s thoughts are correct.

Another point I would make is that the second bowl you have presented portrays something that could be understand in a way that most would not suspect. The gates of Rhoda were marked with the emblem you see on the second bowl. Each gate had a symbol of the Rose with crosses above each Rose. I will not go into the meaning of the circles you see around the Rose so some of our friends do not vapor lock on us. Having said this is the similarity just a coincidence? Perhaps perhaps not. Maybe it is all about seeing what has always been there.

I suspect that some of the literature that is coming out will speak to these issues. And perhaps other discoveries as well. I wonder what these folks will share with us:


Robert C. Hyde and Donald N. Yates, The Tucson Artifacts: Latin and Hebrew Records of a Jewish Mining Colony in Ninth-Century Arizona.


Who knows maybe a rose would later be interpreted as a heart and maybe a library has a role to play in all of this. We will see.

And what does all of this have to do with the Superstitions? If these folks were here, Everything.

Good luck with you work.


Starman

 

No "vapor lock" from this quarter:dontknow:
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[h=1]Quetzalcoatl and the Tucson Crosses[/h]
[h=1][/h]By Donald N. Yates
Excerpt from the forthcoming book by Robert C. Hyde and Donald N. Yates, The Tucson Artifacts: Latin and Hebrew Records of a Jewish Mining Colony in Ninth-Century Arizona.
In 1924, Charles Manier and his father stopped by a limekiln on Silverbell Road in Tucson, Arizona on a weekend drive. While investigating the ruins, Mr. Manier noticed a large piece of metal sticking out of the ground. This discovery would lead to one of the greatest archeological controversies in the twentieth century—a pre-Columbian Roman-Jewish colony with ties to the Toltecs and possibly, their empire in Tollan, Mexico.
The following newspaper article summarizes a lecture presented by Mrs. Laura Ostrander, a local historian, consultant and transcriptionist of Latin, who was integrally involved in the discoveries between 1924 and 1925. Mrs. Ostrander came highly recommended by Dr. Clifton J. Sarle, professor of geology at the University of Arizona, who worked on the original excavations with Charles Manier and his partner, Thomas W. Bent.
New York Times headline about the “relics” made a splash around the world.

The 35 lead inscribed artifacts are today preserved by the Arizona Historical Society Museum in Tucson. They were edited, published and elucidated in Cyclone Covey’s 1976 monograph Calalus: A Roman Jewish colony in American from the Time of Charlemagne through Alfred the Great. The “Tucson Artifacts” were also the subject of Don Burgess’ “Romans in Tucson? The Story of an Archaeological Hoax,”Journal of the Southwest, 51/1 (Spring 2009).
Toltec head with European features resembling Byzantine-era statuary.

Donald N. Yates, a paleographer and medieval Latin expert, and Robert C. Hyde, a Minneapolis-based historical calligrapher, photographer and graphic artist, are working on a new study of the “Calalus Texts” and the Santa Cruz archeological zone, which they expect to publish next year. Here from their chapter on the newspaper headlines the discoveries ignited in the 1920s is an article that linked the Roman Jews of Calalus with the figure of Quetzalcoatl in Mesoamerican history.
Added to Ostrander’s material is a section from Charnay’s identification of Roman civilization in Tollan.
Bearded White Man of Toltecs May Be Israel III of Artifact Fame
Arizona Daily Star, February 17, 1927
Quetzalcoatl, “the bearded white man” whom the Toltec Indians of Mexico worshipped as their god, may have been Israel III, leader of the mysterious wanderers who are believed by some to have left the leaden artifacts recently unearthed near Tucson.
That was the suggestion made by Mrs. Laura Coleman Ostrander, history teacher in the public schools of Tucson, in an address this afternoon before the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
After tracing Roman-Jewish history as “a possible cause for migration” of the unknown band, Mrs. Ostrander discussed the “cultural impress” of the wanderers upon the natives they encountered in America.
“In so far as the Latin records show the period of occupancy on this continent must have been about 125 years,” Mrs. Ostrander said. “It would be impossible for a civilized people of so much higher plane to have had contact with the natives whom the Scribe designates as ‘a people ruling widely,’ without having left some cultural impress. In the time allotted to me I cannot consider in detail each possible influence but may merely point the road of our investigation.
“The general consensus of opinion among archaeologists and ethnologists is that from 700 to 900 A.D. the Toltecs were ascendant in the plateau sections of the mid-Americas, moving from the north into Mexico and establishing their kingdom at Tollan. This date coincides closely therefore with the occupancy of these Roman Jewish immigrants. During the period of 125 years of contact with the natives, these wanderers must have left some material impress upon them, which may be recognized.
May Be Banished King
“To their god, Quetzalcoatl, ‘The bearded white man,’ who was first known as high priest and after death exalted and worshipped as their God, they attribute their forms of religion, government and superior craftsmanship. In the Toltec sculpturing he is always represented as bearded, with high forehead, long nose and thin lips and is often referred to as, ‘The Long-nosed God.’ He wears a Roman tunic embroidered with crosses.
“In the Dresden Codex, Quetzalcoatl is described as tall, blue-eyed and bearded, and in one of the drawings of the same manuscript he is shown holding a snake in his hand. May not this bearded white man be the banished king, Israel III?
“Toltec tradition further relates that while their country was at the height of its prosperity under Quetzalcoatl’s wise rule, there appeared one day before this high priest a bearded old man of his own race. Coming from the north this visitor revealed what the Toltecs believed to be the will of the Gods that he should return to his own people. This message he accepted as imperative and immediately started northward. He took with him some young noblemen as far as Cholula where he sent them back charging them to say that he would return at the head of a group of white men. Gradually news seeped through that Quetzalcoatl had died, but because of this message, the Aztecs, descendants of this ancient tribe, received the Spaniards as long expected guests. A study of the Toltec religion shows it to be a mixture of Indian myth and Hebrew legends and religious rites, but fundamentally Hebraic. The Toltecs had a hereditary priesthood who crowned their kings, they burned incense, offered fresh fruits as substitute for human sacrifice, attributed to Quetzalcoatl, and many other rites pointing to a Hebraic source.
“The establishment of a civil calendar of 365 days which was independent of the religious calendar and leaving to the High Priests to determine the time for intercalation of the extra days required to fill out the year, is an institution established at a meeting of the High Priests at Tollan, called together by Quetzalcoatl and agrees with the prerogative conferred upon the Sanhedrin by the Jews.
“The cross is found sculptured upon many temples and is seldom found without some representation of the serpent.
Tells of Charnay’s Find
“Charnay [Claude-Joseph Désiré Charnay], while excavating at Palpan brought to light a Toltec house recalling in minute details the Roman impluvium–another unearthed at Teothuan by the same party was almost identical to the first. Lord Kingsborough and [Thomas] Thorowgood spend many years in trying to establish the fact that the American aborigines are descendants of the lost tribe of Israel. They found overwhelming evidence pointing to Hebrew cultural influence but failed to establish their hypothesis.
“It must not be inferred that we assert that Israel III was the Toltec God Quetzalcoatl. We have simply raised the question of what became of him after he had liberated the Toltezus (Indian chieftains). There are those among eminent ethnologists who believe that the American aboriginal cultures are purely indigenous. In face of the great volume of evidence gleaned from diverse fields of investigation in recent years pointing to exotic influences impressed upon the lower aboriginal cultures their position seems very much like that of a person who once having cast a die, sees it through regardless of later developments.”
Regarding the “European background” for the supposed expedition to “Calalus,” the unknown land, Mrs. Ostrander said:
“Roman-Jewish history shows us a possible cause for migration. From Alexandria, drawn by the lively commercial intercourse between cities, there migrated in the second century B. C. a large colony of Jews, who established themselves on the right bank of the Tiber where they lived as traders. They identified themselves with politicians and as early . . . held offices of power. While some were building up their tracts of land, others moved with her armies into the northern provinces and established in these countries colonies of Hebrews who later occupied numerous high places in the governments of their adopted lands and whose descendants returned as foreigners to Rome to help in the usurpation of her power.
Jews Prosperous
“The history of the Jews in Rome is one of great prosperity. The trade in slaves from northern Africa brought them great wealth. Their status as citizens depended directly upon the rulers in power. Under some they were treated justly, others allowed them great privileges while others persecuted them. During the fourth century Rome suffered much from the invasion of barbarous tribes and in the midst of these invasions and the political convulsions naturally entailed, the Jews gradually became masters of the commerce, for which the conquerors cared nothing. This place they held during the following centuries.
“It was given to them without protest by Honorius, Theodoric and Pope Gregory I and thus they gained peace, time and strength. During the reign of Gregory I they did much for their fellow countrymen in Southern Greece who were constantly at war with the Greek people. From the death of Gregory in 604 to the 9[SUP]th[/SUP]century the years were dark and turbulent for the Jews. They could not own property, were forced to pay heavy taxes and to become wanderers. Their troubles were culminated by Ludwig II, who in 855 ordered all Italian Jews to leave the country by October 1[SUP]st[/SUP] of that year. Even those who had been baptized as Christians were very similarly treated, for they were always suspected of pretending Christianity to avoid the heavy taxes levied upon Jews. It is not surprising then but rather a confirmation of a fact that many of them left Rome to seek new homes and not surprising that considering their knowledge of navigation, they should have sought them in a strange land.
“One definite link with European history is the story told by O.L. of the Hebrew ruler Benjaminus, who ‘Came from Seine to Rome, the bravest of the Gauls. He came to the assistance of the people, to lay the foundation of the city. He built a wall around the city to resist the enemy. Benjamin, mighty in strength. He filled the multitude with religion. He was slain by the Thebans.’ Thus his story comes to us from O.L. who ‘heard this from his father 500 years after, behind the mountain, in memory of his father, Joseph.’
“The story of Benjamin is very probable. Since this inscription is dated 895, the incident related must have occurred during the fourth century, and it is during these years that the northern peoples began to overrun the Roman Empire, and during these centuries that the Jews and Greeks throughout the length and breadth of the Roman Empire were at constant warfare, and many Jews were killed by Thebans. If the European background is correct, let us hope to definitely locate Benjamin. From the European setting we turn to the American.”
Mrs. Ostrander closed her address by stressing the importance of the Tucson discoveries and paying a tribute to the two men responsible for them:
“To date, the record carved upon these leaden, cruciform tablets comprises the earliest definite record of old and new world maritime intercommunication found in the new world.”
“When excavations are complete a monument made from the flood-washed boulders covering the place of burial will permanently commemorate the struggle of these Romans to found a nation while working against great odds, and paying tribute to the men who, through their energy and purpose, have made this discovery known, Messrs. C. E. Manier and Thomas W. Bent.”
“These conclusions must be regarded as tentative since excavation is still in progress but in its last analysis this discovery must be regarded as opening a new chapter in the pre-Columbian history of America.”
From Ch. VI, “Palpan and the Toltecs,” in Desiré Charnay, The Ancient Cities of the New World: Being Travels and Explorations in Mexico and Central America from 1857-1882, trans. J. Gonino & Helen S. Conant (London: Chapman and Hall, 1887), pp. 105-7.
I picked out the rubbish many curious things: huge baked bricks, from one foot to nine inches by two and two and a half in thickness; filters, straight and curved water-pipes, vases and fragments of vases, enameled terra-cotta cups, bringing to mind those at Tenenepanco; seals, one of which (an eagle’s head) I had engraved for my personal use; bits which were curiously like old Japanese china; molds, one having a head with a huge plait and hair smoothed on both sides of her face, like an old maid; besides innumerable arrow-heads and knives of obsidian strewing the ground. In fact, a whole civilisation.



By dyates122013in Mesoamerica, Mining, mythology, Newspaper Articles, Precolumbian History, Southwest ArcheologyOctober 5, 2015October 4, 20152,063 WordsLeave a comment
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Still following the story.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Certain artifacts and parts of history are intertwined like a rope stretching through time. When viewed as a whole, the evidence is stronger than each individual strand.

Hal, if you ever have the opportunity to see the Tucson Artifacts in person, you should. I believe that if you find the bowls fascinating, you will be equally if not more impressed with the, Tucson Artifacts
 

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I would definitely attend that also. Who knows what connections could be made by simple observation.
 

I plan to on my next trip out but would like to do so in the company of those writing about it. Hopefully Hyde and Yates will give a talk in the near future. I would fly out to hear it.

Hal,

In your research, It would not be a bad idea to have this book:



Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

OP,

I have made many of those simple observations:







While you are at the museum, you might ask to see the Bent Manuscript. I have a complete copy, but it's not available to the public.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

[Don't want to interrupt you Ancient guy's excellent posts, but since this string is 'Superstition People, Places, & Things' I thought it would be a good place to mention the TV series Myth Hunters which I caught on Netflix yesterday. I'm sure many have already seen it, but it was a first for me.

The season 2, episode 2, is entitled "The Secret of the Superstition Mountain".
It was actually very well presented. Can't speak to how accurate the information was, you guys can decide that for yourselves. It did have several Dutch Hunters speaking on the show, maybe some of you from this site? I believe it was made in 2015. Anyway, it was well worth watching.

Also noticed other Myth Hunter episodes of possible interest., "The Curse of Montezuma's Gold" S2E6, and another on the Lost Spanish Galleon in the Mojave Desert S3E7.

Now back to the Ancient Hebrew Dinosaurs of Tucson.] :icon_scratch:
 

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