Superstition People, Places, & Things.

Status
Not open for further replies.
ancient ????????

The lost tribes of Israel migrated across the Med. to the remains of Atlantis - the shallows off of the coast of Spain, then to North America, across the southern states to Arizona,then turned south into Mexico, hence the Ancient Hebrew writing in various places, including Mexico. In the process they intermaried with the local trbes and lost most of their idenity

Thiis readily explains the Hebrew atifacts. :laughing7::laughing7::unhappysmiley: AS good a theory as any.:occasion14:
 

cactusjumper,

Thank you for the book title. I will look for it. BTW, the antique book fair is in NYC this weekend.

About the creature depicted on the sword in your photograph. IF the Tucson artifact are genuine, and if that creature was actually living in the time of men, one possible explanation for it survives in the stories repeated at the Papago Prayer Stick festival. In fact, one Papago family is the caretaker of its remains.

Who knows.

Hal,

I don't believe the manuscript is available for sale, but there could be some copies that were held in private hands that could show up. The first book I purchased on the subject was Professor Cyclone Covey's "Calalus: A Roman Jewish Colony in America from the Time of Charlemagne Through Alfred the Great". It's a well written, well researched study of the history surrounding the Tucson artifacts.
I purchased a second copy because it was from Warren Dexter's library, personally signed "For Warren Dexter with esteem--Cyclone Covey". It has a letter from Covey to Dexter as well as a number of notes and tip-ins.

I probably have a dozen other publications and write-ups on the artifacts. Don't mean to denigrate the Papago bones, but I don't believe for a second that such animals survived to have their remains to be in the possession of the Papago Tribe. If so, have they been authenticated?

I will be interested to see the new book when it is published.

Take care,

Joe
 

Cactus Jumper, I respect your opinions and the time that you've spent researching Calalus, and the Tucson Artifacts. Their authenticity? We should just agree to disagree.
 

Cactus Jumper, I respect your opinions and the time that you've spent researching Calalus, and the Tucson Artifacts. Their authenticity? We should just agree to disagree.

op,

There are some respectable people who believe the Tucson Artifacts are the real thing. Many more who don't believe in them. From the research I have done into both sides, I come down on the side of the doubters.

You are in good company.

Good luck,


Joe
 

Hal,

Sorry, "but the heart of this creature, cut in two halves, is kept in a basket and hidden away in a cave until the annual festival." story, is just to big for me to swallow.:laughing7:

Take care,

Joe
 

Last edited:
"...and yes EarnieP, I believe that the monster was circumcised. What do you thing the sword was for?"

The sword, ha, touche! Maybe it wasn't the poor thing's heart in that basket?
Thanks for returning the laugh. :icon_thumleft:
 

Last edited:
Although the Tucson artifacts with their 'writings' do look like something Hibben could have done, I see Hibben was born in 1910 and the artifacts were first discovered starting in 1924. Which would have made him a little too young at that time. I did read Hibben joined in some digs as a child, but didn't find where or when.
Guess I'll stick with the theory about the young Tucson neighborhood artistic lead caster.
Hope his name wasn't Hibben?:dontknow:
 

Although the Tucson artifacts with their 'writings' do look like something Hibben could have done, I see Hibben was born in 1910 and the artifacts were first discovered starting in 1924. Which would have made him a little too young at that time. I did read Hibben joined in some digs as a child, but didn't find where or when.
Guess I'll stick with the theory about the young Tucson neighborhood artistic lead caster.
Hope his name wasn't Hibben?:dontknow:

Ernie,

What you say is quite true. Hibben was born Dec. 10, 1910. He did have interest in archaeology as a child, and participated in several digs. The Tucson artifacts could very well have been done by a young person with limited education in archaeology and history.

Professor Hibben had definite connections in Tucson.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Michigan Relics - Chad

Different cast of characters (James Scotford, Daniel Soper, and Father James Savage) involved in the Michigan Relics but same story essentially.
Tucson relics had a Mormon connection.
The Michigan Relics do as well.
It seems like a reoccurring theme in questionable archeology.

Hal,

I have done a ton of research into the Mormon Church and its history. They have been searching for archaeological proof for the history in the Book Of Mormon, almost from the beginning with Joseph Smith. The history has slowly moved from NY to Central America with the official church position being to endorse no archaeological history. That has been due to the number of hoax's over the years.

On the other hand, that search has created a really fine Dept. of Anthropology&Archaeology at BYU. If my memory serves me correctly, they did some fine work on digs with Michael Smith. I believe he had nothing but good things to say about the Mormon archaeologist's, without accepting the "facts" of their own history.

Take care,

Joe
 

Last edited:
My point is, there were plenty of people (Mormon & Non) looking to capitalize on Mormon mythology at the turn of the century. And as you know, Smith's ideas in the beginning were not his own nor were they divine.

BTW, Julia's ever evolving religion was said to have been influenced by Mormon beliefs.

Hal,

While I don't personally believe Smiths story
, I don't know, for a fact, that they were not "divine" in their conception.

In those days, new religions were popping up regularly. Manny of them took what they liked from every religion and melded it into their own.

Take care,

Joe
 

The Tucson Artifacts

Hello Hal,

If you are interested in an alternative explanation to the artifacts, this is as good as any, and has the advantage of being suggested by a known archaeologist:

by hardaker » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:31 am
Something has turned up and I wanted to propose it to the forum. Many strange artifacts interpreted as evidence of pre-Columbian voyages to the New World are based on textual and/or symbolic evidence. As an archaeologist, context is everything, and in my experience many of these artifacts with texts have poorly recorded proveniences, or none at all. Many are now missing, documented either by line drawings or if lucky, photographs. That’s why I have always been attracted to the 32-piece assemblage of lead artifacts, known as the Tucson Artifacts, or as the Roman-Jewish Relics, discovered in 1924. I regard it to be one of the most underrated mysteries of the Americas. Their context and recovery were well documented by professional geologists and archaeologists, with many photos taken; they are presently stored at the Arizona Historical Society in Tucson. Their history is discussed in Don Burgess’s, “Roman Jews in Tucson? The Story of an Archaeological Hoax,” (Journal of the Southwest, Spring 2009, 51:1); it is the entire issue, and you can purchase it ala carte. His conclusion was that it is probably a hoax that was carried out during the course of the excavation.

I have reason to believe that this was not a hoax. I do not think the assemblage was meant to be accidently found. I think it was a cache from Sherod Hunter’s regiment stationed in Tucson in 1862. I think it was regalia from a Civil War field lodge used for Masonic ceremonies, and which may have included individuals affiliated to the Knights of the Golden Circle, connected to General Albert Pike. There were a number of Christian crosses, two with coiled snakes, six compound crosses riveted together and containing 8th Century Latin text, spears on broken shafts, short swords, Jewish ceremonial items; symbols include a dinosaur with his tongue sticking out, square and compass designs. The coiled snake on a cross is a theme associated with the Masonic 25th Degree, The Knight of the Brazen Serpent.

An artifact found under a 50-year old Mesquite tree provides a maximum date of ca. 1874. Also, the artifacts were scattered over a 2500-foot area on an eroding terrace, and then covered up all together, buried between three to six feet below the modern surface. There was absolutely no evidence of pits dug to plant the pieces under the surface; this is verified in the photographs and by multiple professional accounts during the discoveries, including comments by Dr. Neil Judd who personally excavated two of the pieces; Judd was a nephew of UAz’s Dr. Byron Cummings, and a Smithsonian archaeologist working at Chaco Canyon. To do all that earthmoving, an army begins to make sense.

I am wondering if the Knights of the Golden Circle might be somehow involved. It all depends on the merit of stories surrounding hidden Confederate caches of gold and treasures, and also stories about symbols and signs coded for directions or secret notes, etc. Confederate General Albert Pike was renowned for his use of symbols and languages, including Latin, Greek and Hebrew. These artifacts were made of lead, so their intrinsic value might be low. On the other hand, the text and/or symbols might contain coded geographic information (?).


If this kind of symbolic hanky panky was going on by the Confederates, could some of the anomalous artifacts or rocks with foreign languages on them — like the Hebrew at Las Lunas, NM and Big Bend? -- could some of these turn out to be affiliated to Confederate activity? Are some of these alleged evidences for pre-Columbian diffusion actually evidence of Confederate Masonic activity tied to groups like the Knights of the Golden Circle? Were some of these anomalous artifacts found along known Confederate routes?

Problem is, I don't know if these tales of KGC caches are true, and I haven’t dealt with Civil War issues at all; I do have a background in symbols.

Is it a connection worth pursuing?

Chris Hardaker

Good luck,


Starman


 

My point is, there were plenty of people (Mormon & Non) looking to capitalize on Mormon mythology at the turn of the century. And as you know, Smith's ideas in the beginning were not his own nor were they divine.

BTW, Julia's ever evolving religion was said to have been influenced by Mormon beliefs.

Joe and his daddy were "treasure diggers" from his earliest days. Even his 34th wife got into the game on Oak Island. This excellent website demonstrates that facts can imperil even the strongest treasure legends. Joe may not have found treasure, but he ended up with quite a harem in the "Let's start a new religion" game.

Chapter 3 — Early History to 1865
 

This is a good conversation lacking only one thing, where's Mr. Riley?

Let's see if the legend is true; ...."Bill"....."Bill"....."Bill"
 

This is a good conversation lacking only one thing, where's Mr. Riley?

Let's see if the legend is true; ...."Bill"....."Bill"....."Bill"

The legend is, if you say(type) Bill's name three times he will mystically appear on site.

But it looks like Bill may still be out in the desert taking advantage of the weather before it heats up too much. I know his last post said he was going out to remove some rocks that were covering up something, hope he's OK.

Once more; ..."Riley"..."Riley"..."Riley" :hello:
 

Read what an expert dowser saw in the LDM region ( the east half of the heart . Not CAVERNA AURUM included ) :

Marius


" Speaking about the lost Dutchman's mine . I will post an aerial picture of the region where I believe is the LDM . This region has some of the Dutchman's mine clues, like : The horse head rock ( red ) , the three pines ( orange ) , the roofless two room house ( blue ) in a cave's mouth ( green ) . The cave is not able to be recognized in this picture , but if you want i can post a real picture where could be recognized . I believe in this region could be another two mines , except the LDM .
Can you " see " something in this picture ? Thank you in advance ."


" I post a real picture from the site to see the cave . IMO , this cave is the CASA CAVERNA from some Spanish maps and in the Latin stone heart is recognized as TRANSEO ECCLESIA maybe because the big cross which is at the left of the cave . In this picture you can see also the FORNIX ( arch ) from the Latin heart .'


Dowser


" This is the only gold treasure in this map (where the blue arrow points).. it is man-made gold.. statues weighing around 40kgs in an iron container, ALSO another iron container containing man-made gold bars, gold coins and gold necklace, but this 2nd container weighs 200kgs..
I don't know their culture in that part of the world.. it is in a vacuum with air inside (not buried), 5 dead bodies around it (also not buried), I don't know, is it a burial room?? Like I said I don't know their culture.. but the older one is laid down opposite to remaining four bodies, his head heading north, however the other 4 bodies are laid down beside each other but their heads are heading south.
Anyway, vertical depth to gold: around 3 meters deep..
P.S : No "evil magic" is involved in this culture's burial rituals."


Marius


" Your input gives a new twist in the Sombrero mine legend in relation with Jacob Waltz , aka " the Dutchman " . I wrote Sombrero and not LDM because are two different mines but very close each other . The Sombrero was a Peralta's mine and was the first which Waltz found and worked with his partner and friend Jacob Wieser . The story goes ( from the Waltz 's death bed confession ) how when they first found the mine with the directions got from Peralta's relatives , the mine was worked by five Mexicans miners who Waltz and Weiser shot them in few minutes . After shot them they carried the Mexicans bodies in the mine .
So , the gold from the containers that you "saw " could be the Mexicans smelted gold which they have mined from the Sombrero mine . Maybe the containers were hiden behind a wall or rock and Waltz didn't see them . After they put the Mexicans bodies in the depth of the tunnel , maybe they builded a wall from rocks creating a small cavity/vacuum . Forgot to say how the Sombrero mine is in a boot shape ( from John Reed's description ) so the depth of the tunnel could be what you have mentioned as vacuum . Or all the closed mine itself could be considered like a vacuum .
Waltz didn't work this mine for long time , and after covered it well , worked an outcropping with rich gold ore which later became the LDM .
I post a closer view of the region . With green is the region of the Sombrero mine's shaft and with blue is what you have pointed .


Dowser


" Well, the green area you marked is a mine shaft.. my point is the only treasure man-made gold in the whole map.. the 5 bodies were not shot.. this is a fact.."


Marius


" Then , they could died of asphixia when the mine collapsed and closed them inside at the depth of the tunnel . Would be another unknown story . Or could be another cave with another entrance . Remains to see ."


Dowser


" No traces of bullets or firearms..why do they have one container of gold statues?? Where did they get it from?? . Beside, all the gold in the two boxes is man-made.. there is no natural mine gold.."


Marius


" Can you " see " how old is that gold stuff ? Because i have a suspicion about an Aztec treasure close by . "


Dowser


" The gold is mixed with copper.. For myself, time can not be dowsed.. I suspect it is a burial room because the elder person is laid down head north exactly... this is ritual.. could you find out which civilization in that part of the world used to bury their dead head north?? "


Marius


" I did an investigation and I found how : the orientation N-S and S-N was used by the pagan Vikings . This orientation would be related to the age or to the sex ( male/female ) of the deceased . They also buried the deceased's precious goods with them .
This could give a new twist in the Calalus/Tucson artifacts saga . I believe the Christians that came at about 800 AD ( what the artifacts show ) used Norse warriors mercenaries ( from the battle axes that are carved on the artifacts ) against Toltecs who lived in the Arizona at that age . If the grave will be proved as Norse , then is an indisputable evidence how they were there and the Calalus/Tucson artifacts are not fake ( like many have adopted ) . I never believed to been fake . "


Dowser


" They are all males.. the elder one's head is only to the north.. he is buried just opposite to the other 4 males whose heads are to the south. "
 

Read what an expert dowser saw in the LDM region ( the east half of the heart . Not CAVERNA AURUM included ) :

Marius


" Speaking about the lost Dutchman's mine . I will post an aerial picture of the region where I believe is the LDM . This region has some of the Dutchman's mine clues, like : The horse head rock ( red ) , the three pines ( orange ) , the roofless two room house ( blue ) in a cave's mouth ( green ) . The cave is not able to be recognized in this picture , but if you want i can post a real picture where could be recognized . I believe in this region could be another two mines , except the LDM .
Can you " see " something in this picture ? Thank you in advance ."


" I post a real picture from the site to see the cave . IMO , this cave is the CASA CAVERNA from some Spanish maps and in the Latin stone heart is recognized as TRANSEO ECCLESIA maybe because the big cross which is at the left of the cave . In this picture you can see also the FORNIX ( arch ) from the Latin heart .'


Dowser


" This is the only gold treasure in this map (where the blue arrow points).. it is man-made gold.. statues weighing around 40kgs in an iron container, ALSO another iron container containing man-made gold bars, gold coins and gold necklace, but this 2nd container weighs 200kgs..
I don't know their culture in that part of the world.. it is in a vacuum with air inside (not buried), 5 dead bodies around it (also not buried), I don't know, is it a burial room?? Like I said I don't know their culture.. but the older one is laid down opposite to remaining four bodies, his head heading north, however the other 4 bodies are laid down beside each other but their heads are heading south.
Anyway, vertical depth to gold: around 3 meters deep..
P.S : No "evil magic" is involved in this culture's burial rituals."


Marius


" Your input gives a new twist in the Sombrero mine legend in relation with Jacob Waltz , aka " the Dutchman " . I wrote Sombrero and not LDM because are two different mines but very close each other . The Sombrero was a Peralta's mine and was the first which Waltz found and worked with his partner and friend Jacob Wieser . The story goes ( from the Waltz 's death bed confession ) how when they first found the mine with the directions got from Peralta's relatives , the mine was worked by five Mexicans miners who Waltz and Weiser shot them in few minutes . After shot them they carried the Mexicans bodies in the mine .
So , the gold from the containers that you "saw " could be the Mexicans smelted gold which they have mined from the Sombrero mine . Maybe the containers were hiden behind a wall or rock and Waltz didn't see them . After they put the Mexicans bodies in the depth of the tunnel , maybe they builded a wall from rocks creating a small cavity/vacuum . Forgot to say how the Sombrero mine is in a boot shape ( from John Reed's description ) so the depth of the tunnel could be what you have mentioned as vacuum . Or all the closed mine itself could be considered like a vacuum .
Waltz didn't work this mine for long time , and after covered it well , worked an outcropping with rich gold ore which later became the LDM .
I post a closer view of the region . With green is the region of the Sombrero mine's shaft and with blue is what you have pointed .


Dowser


" Well, the green area you marked is a mine shaft.. my point is the only treasure man-made gold in the whole map.. the 5 bodies were not shot.. this is a fact.."


Marius


" Then , they could died of asphixia when the mine collapsed and closed them inside at the depth of the tunnel . Would be another unknown story . Or could be another cave with another entrance . Remains to see ."


Dowser


" No traces of bullets or firearms..why do they have one container of gold statues?? Where did they get it from?? . Beside, all the gold in the two boxes is man-made.. there is no natural mine gold.."


Marius


" Can you " see " how old is that gold stuff ? Because i have a suspicion about an Aztec treasure close by . "


Dowser


" The gold is mixed with copper.. For myself, time can not be dowsed.. I suspect it is a burial room because the elder person is laid down head north exactly... this is ritual.. could you find out which civilization in that part of the world used to bury their dead head north?? "


Marius


" I did an investigation and I found how : the orientation N-S and S-N was used by the pagan Vikings . This orientation would be related to the age or to the sex ( male/female ) of the deceased . They also buried the deceased's precious goods with them .
This could give a new twist in the Calalus/Tucson artifacts saga . I believe the Christians that came at about 800 AD ( what the artifacts show ) used Norse warriors mercenaries ( from the battle axes that are carved on the artifacts ) against Toltecs who lived in the Arizona at that age . If the grave will be proved as Norse , then is an indisputable evidence how they were there and the Calalus/Tucson artifacts are not fake ( like many have adopted ) . I never believed to been fake . "


Dowser


" They are all males.. the elder one's head is only to the north.. he is buried just opposite to the other 4 males whose heads are to the south. "

Marius,

Thank you for that post. Just when I think I have heard just about everything, something completely new pops up.:icon_thumright: Keeps things from becoming boring.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom