The Book Club

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somehiker,

While I don't see the connection between the Tucson Artifacts and my goals in starting this thread, I am glad that you have posted the link. Perhaps it will encourage M. Walzer to return and to write openly about the connection to Jacob Walzer.


I am looking at census records and am wondering why Jacob Waltz is listed as a farmer and not a miner? The 1864 census is the one that I am missing. Anyone know if it is Waltz or Walzer or both on that list? Higham discovers the Walzer name and I am wondering just how it was done.
 

I don't either Hal.
But since the Tucson Artifacts/Calalus controversy had become part of the discussion, it seemed the most appropriate place for the news.
As the program proves, these lead castings are still in Tucson and available for study by interested parties.

I would suspect that Waltz probably told the census taker he was a farmer, rather than a miner, for reasons known only to himself.
After all, he did raise chickens and sell some of the eggs. Perhaps, like one of my uncles, he did so because doing so qualified him for lower taxes or some other advantage. Avoiding the scrutiny of those who were collecting the Reavis Land Grant royalties may have been another reason for him not wanting to be listed as a miner.

Regards: SH.
 

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I don't either Hal.
But since the Tucson Artifacts/Calalus controversy had become part of the discussion, it seemed the most appropriate place for the news.
As the program proves, these lead castings are still in Tucson and available for study by interested parties.

I would suspect that Waltz probably told the census taker he was a farmer, rather than a miner, for reasons known only to himself.
After all, he did raise chickens and sell some of the eggs. Perhaps, like one of my uncles, he did so because doing so qualified him for lower taxes or some other advantage. Avoiding the scrutiny of those who were collecting the Reavis Land Grant royalties may have been another reason for him not wanting to be listed as a miner.

Regards: SH.
I guess that I am looking for a way to close the book on Walzer. It is Waltz according to Blair page 51.
1864 special census 1008 Jacob Waltz. Two years in territory, age 54, a native of Germany. Occupation:miner.
 

Hi Hal

In my investigation of the Wieser-Walker map and my opinion , the Wieser -Walker mine is about 2,5 miles NW from Black Cross Mesa , north of Salt River . This region is far from Vekol mine and maybe is other mine . This mine is in a stright line to the north with the Weavers Needle , and is in the centre of a little Heart .

Marius
 

I guess that I am looking for a way to close the book on Walzer. It is Waltz according to Blair page 51.
1864 special census 1008 Jacob Waltz. Two years in territory, age 54, a native of Germany. Occupation:miner.

Hal,

I don't know if I have ever seen the actual image of the 1864 Arizona Territorial Census for Waltz. A tanscription of sorts does appear on Ancestry.com. (I thought perhaps you had a membership?)

I don't know what is going on with ancestry but I couldn't locate the link through ancestry but when I googled 1864 arizona Territorial census I did get a hit for the ancestry database. It is certainly a poor substitute for the actual image but this is what they have. (Again it is kind of a mess)

I searched on Waltz, Walz, Walzer, Waltzer and Wisner. The only hit I got in the 1864 census was for Jacob Waltz and this is how it appears.


[TD="class: body, align: left"]NO.: 1008
NAMES: JACOB WALTZ
AGE: 54
MARRIED OR
SINGLE: S
WHERE BORN: GERMANY
NOW LONG RESIDENT: 2 YEARS
IF NOT A
NATIVE, WMERE NATURALIZED: NAT.
VALUE OF: MINER
[/TD]

[TD="class: body, align: left"][SIZE=-1] Census of Arizona Territory – April
1864
TAKEN BY H. WALTER READ ARIZONA — 1864[p.169]
page 205
[/SIZE]
[/TD]

I have to suspect your source is working from his own agenda. You might check out whether Florence was in existence in 1864 or when Wickenberg was established.

The only person who can resolve your belief that Walzer was Jacob's name is you, and that may involve running down the actual census images.

BTW when you work on the remainder of the dots you will find that Waltz was indeed a miner in the 1864 to 1867 or 1868 time frame. He became a farmer after he moved to Phoenix in 1868 or 1869. (I don't have my files available to me and I would have to check those to verify the 1867-1869 time frame.)

Be cautious when anyone (me included) uses words like I suspect, I think, I believe, etc. (That is not a source!)

Garry
 

Garry,

"I have to suspect your source is working from his own agenda. You might check out whether Florence was in existence in 1864 or when Wickenberg was established."

Florence was named after Gov. Richard McCormick's sister, when he was requested to give the town a name. That was done in 1868, although the first house had been built there in 1866.

Wickenburg is a little less straightforward. Heinrich Heintzel (Henry Wickenburg) established his "Wickenburg Ranch" in 1864, which was the same year as he discovered and sold the Vulture Mine, although Barnes "Arizona Place Names" also says he discovered the mine in 1863.

A post office was established in 1865, and the town was surveyed and plotted in 1897. The Wells Fargo Station was started in 1903.

Arizona Place Names

Take care,

Joe
 

I don't either Hal.
But since the Tucson Artifacts/Calalus controversy had become part of the discussion, it seemed the most appropriate place for the news.
As the program proves, these lead castings are still in Tucson and available for study by interested parties.

I would suspect that Waltz probably told the census taker he was a farmer, rather than a miner, for reasons known only to himself.
After all, he did raise chickens and sell some of the eggs. Perhaps, like one of my uncles, he did so because doing so qualified him for lower taxes or some other advantage. Avoiding the scrutiny of those who were collecting the Reavis Land Grant royalties may have been another reason for him not wanting to be listed as a miner.

Regards: SH.

Wayne,

I believe it was the McGee's who first made a connection between Calalus and the Superstitions. Perhaps Starman has another source for that information.:dontknow:

The other question would be: When did Bent first have knowledge of the Superstition connection?

Joe
 

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Jake Walzer and Oz

Hello Hal,

Martin is back in Germany now and will be out of pocket for sometime. I believe he is finishing up a book and will be heading on to South Africa shortly. Anyway he asked me to look in on all of this to see if it was worth the effort to help you a bit.

Just a few things you may want to consider:

1. Mr. Blair`s book is a good effort to understand the mystery of Jake Walzer but you may want to take a look at his comments regarding Jake`s name. It seems even Blair was not sure if anyone would be successful in resolving that issue. Not sure exactly where his comments are but they are in there somewhere. If you have the chance you may want to take a look at the clue that Arizona Hiker gave you. Wonder what is in that box?

2. The issue of Herman Petrasch`s integrity is a bit of a sore point with me. From what I know he was a fine man and granted my sources are not available to you but you may want to look at Sim`s Ely`s work, "The Lost Dutchman Mine", page 127, My edition is a copy that was printed in London and purchased in Rhodesia so the U.S. copy maybe different. Ely states: " Herman and I were partners, in a way, for we made a number of trips into the Superstitions together. Camping with him, I found him congenial and intelligent, absolutely truthful and honourable" No Herman did not make up how folks knew Jacob.

3. Keep in mind that most writer`s make up stuff about the Superstitions and Barnard was no different. This does not mean he was not a fine man just colorful. The difference between say a Barnard and a Glover is that with more modern writers they tend to couch their efforts in pseudo-science. With Glover, and let`s say I do know a bit about rocks, his analysis of Dutchman Ore is right up there with something Barry Storm would write. Just total nonsense. But back to Barnard for the moment. Barnard says on page 32 that Petrasch`s letter says that Petrasch indicates that Walzer was Jacob`s last name. Have you ever seen the letter? Perhaps it says something different. A small difference but an important one.

4. In this particular instance you have a conflict with what I would call the oral tradition and a written tradition. When such a conflict happens it is generally safe to assume this is not happenstance. The question is why? My answer is the most simple. Jacob intended this to throw a monkey wrench in the efforts of folks to research this issue. Just the thing a Gatekeeper would do.

5. Martin gave you far too much information to work with. Really there are sources out there that will confirm what you have been told. You will just have to do your homework and do not rely on others to think for you.

You and Somehiker raised the issue of how all of this is connected with Jake. That is a fair question. Martin touched on this enough but I will take a moment to flesh it out. As Martin indicated Jake`s ancestor`s were among the survivors of the holocast. What he did not tell you is that when the survivors of the holocast met up on Silverbell Road, there was such a pitiful few, one of the survivors was a pregnant woman. This lady`s husband had died in the Canyon of the Souls defending the library of Oz, under Coronado Mesa and the settlement of the Ancients that still existed under Horse Mesa. One of the survivors that was given a seat on the wagon when the Calalus Artifacts were dumped was this lady. She was seriously ill but survived long enough to give birth to a young man on the Etowah River in what is now known as Georgia. That young man was a ancestor of Jacob Walzer. So you see if the artifacts had not been dumped on Silverbell Road, Jacob Walzer would never have existed and the Lost Dutchman Mine legend would never have been created.

On another subject I was very happy to see the tv special. To see Mr. Bent`s grandson smile was priceless and to see him participate in the beginning of the process dealing with the truth about the artifacts was very important to us. While this is only the beginning folks can begin to take the artifacts a bit more seriously.

I think the right thing was done in restoring the genuine artifacts to the people in Tucson so they could be examined. Have to admit that was quite the effort. Not in the same league as the flight to South Africa or the creation of trail systems in the Superstitions to confuse folks or other things but a good moment. Who knows maybe Oz and the settlement of the ancients is still intact, Just hidden away.

Mr. Ribaudo,

The first folks to connect the Superstitions to Calalus were the ancient Greeks. The next would of course be the settlers of Calalus.

I do want to thank you for helping me with a bet. I bet Martin $10,000.00 that if he made one final effort with you before the tv special you would react exactly the way you did. He still had hope you might see the light. Nope.

Hal,

When I spoke with Martin I promised to be honest with you. In return he promised to not post anymore. I have kept my word. After today I will spin you like a top and leave you in a house of mirrors. I am a Gatekeeper.

Also on a final point. The people insisted a long time ago that all of our communication with the outside world regarding these matters would go through one person. It is an excellent way to do business.

Good luck in your efforts.


Klondike
 

This is going to make one doozie of a book. I would like a signed first edition for helping you develop the details and smooth out the rough spots. In a sense, I believe that makes me something of a "Gatekeeper" too.

:laughing7::laughing7::laughing9::laughing9:

Joe Ribaudo
 

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Klondike,

When you made this uninformed statement earlier, it only made your "on the fly" made-up stories more ridiculous:

"1. As Late told me on a number of occasions your efforts in trying to buy artifacts was such that your integrity was a serious issue. It seems you were more concerned with what you could squirrel away with more than what could be made available to the public."

I never tried to buy your quasi-artifacts.......ever. What I did offer to buy, if you were interested in selling it, was the signed Sims Ely book you claimed to have. Like most of your other claims, that one turned out to be without any substance. I believe I still have the e-mail where I made that offer......to Late49er. If you keep making these kinds of errors, I will need two copies of the first edition.:laughing7:

And just how many "artifacts" did you folks "squirrel away" in Africa? If those things are "available to the public", what museum can the members of this site go to in order to view them?:dontknow:

Joe Ribaudo
 

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Wayne,

I believe it was the McGee's who first made a connection between Calalus and the Superstitions. Perhaps Starman has another source for that information.:dontknow:

The other question would be: When did Bent first have knowledge of the Superstition connection?

Joe

Joe:
Could be, but "Terra Calalus" sounds to me like just another variation of the "Antilla" legends which speak of a similar exodus in ce 714.
As for Bent, I have no idea when or how.
I've always been more interested in Klondike Ben's dogged insistence to include the Stone Maps, the LDM, and anything else of significance said to exist in and around the Sups, as part of his fantasy. I haven't read the McGee's ideas on their version of the tale, or why they thought there was any connection, so I can't really offer any opinion. I stopped commenting on Ben's claims a couple of years ago, after offering him a trade. He was to describe a symbol likely to be found on an old piece of wood which I might then consider good evidence for his statements. If he was correct, I would then post a photo of the part showing the symbol. He and his alter egos subsequently posted several guesses (alpha,omega,etc), but all were wrong. Last fall, after I got back from the Rendezvous, I took another piece from the same source to an Amish furniture maker nw of where I live. He identified it as Lebanese cedar and "very old, maybe from the back of a book" [spine].
It's curved and about 3 1/2 " long, so it would have been a pretty thick book. The larger pieces, including the one with the symbol, remain where I found them.

Regards:Wayne
 

Garry,

I now have little doubt that Waltz, the LA Waltz, is the Waltz of the “Dutch Jacob” legend. Dr. Blair and his publisher did an amazing job pulling it all together. So, it seems that Henry Youngblood’s find in the Bradshaw Mt. is the Lost Dutchman, and Jacob Waltz’s find in the Superstitions (if he had one) is the Dutch Jacob Mine. For me, it boils down to the Declaration Of Intention. If it is genuine, and I see no reason to doubt it, than Jacob Waltz and Higham’s Walzer, Jacob Walzer, who arrived in 1861 at New York’s Castle Garden, cannot be the same person. To confirm this, Higham himself claimed to have a photograph of Jacob Walzer taken in Jersey City, NJ in 1864. Jacob Waltz was already in Arizona by 1864. Garry, one thing that I would ask is that you look at the original 1848 document again. I think that it may be “five” years in the United States, not “nine” as suggested by Dr. Blair. That would place Waltz’s date of arrival in the U.S. around 1843, not 1839.

And what about Higham’s Jacob Walzer? I now see that it was all based on the mysterious Jacob Walz of Oberschwandorf. Blair agrees that Walz was likely the origional name, however now it is clear that Jacob Walzer and Jacob Waltz (Walz) are two unique people.

"In 1864, we find him in Prescott, Territorial Capital of Arizona. The United States census of that year list him as Jacob Waltzer (not Walz, Waltz or Waly)..." another reason to proof the original 1864 census. Is this Higham or Barnard??

I wonder why Waltz never filed on his claim in the Superstitions? Waltz was entitled to do so which makes be think that the discovery was something more than a typical mining claim.

Starman1, Klondike,

I don’t know what is in that box, but yes, I do think about it. I can only imagine that whatever it is, it confirms Blair’s possible doubt concerning the Waltz name. As I said, I can’t get to that box right now, however Dr. Blair’s wonderful wife is still with us and her recall is incredible. So, I have a little insight into Blair’s mind while writing with Fireman and his staff.

I also agree with you about Herman Petrasch and don’t doubt his belief in the Walzer name. But again, it cannot be the Walzer who arrived in 1861. That Jacob Walzer is a true mystery… I have not given up on him either, but you must agree that he is not the Dutch Jacob of the Superstitions. Your “gatekeeper” if indeed he was a “gatekeeper”, can be traced to Mississippi in 1848; actually 1847. Beyond that date it’s anyone’s guess. What is not clear is the connection to Charles Hauselt of New York. Was he Walzer’s or Waltz’s (Walz) cousin. Higham stated that he would never disclose Walzer's NY family name, but in my copy of Barnard’s book Hauslet (Hauselt) is named. I wonder if Higham’s first edition withholds the Hauselt name and if Barnard added it in later editions disclosing Higham's secret? Anyway, starman should be able to set the record straight if he is writing a book on the topic. I hope that he does.

I understand that starman’s goal is to promote the Tucson Artifacts and to perhaps tell (publish) the amazing story behind them, but if you are going to “spin me like a top”, you/he will first need to answer the Waltz, Walzer, Walz question.

At this point, I am still looking for Jacob Walzer who arrived at NY in 61. Why? Hope… that Higham was something more than a BS’er. There are still several people named Jacob Walzer that need to researched, including two in the U.S. Army (Missouri & PA), a shoemaker in Kentucky, a laborer in Lincoln, Nebraska, and the one that has my attention, Jacob Walzer, the miner living in Leadville, CO in 1894. I believe that there is another Lost Dutchman's mine in CO?
 

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Joe:
Could be, but "Terra Calalus" sounds to me like just another variation of the "Antilla" legends which speak of a similar exodus in ce 714.
As for Bent, I have no idea when or how.
I've always been more interested in Klondike Ben's dogged insistence to include the Stone Maps, the LDM, and anything else of significance said to exist in and around the Sups, as part of his fantasy. I haven't read the McGee's ideas on their version of the tale, or why they thought there was any connection, so I can't really offer any opinion. I stopped commenting on Ben's claims a couple of years ago, after offering him a trade. He was to describe a symbol likely to be found on an old piece of wood which I might then consider good evidence for his statements. If he was correct, I would then post a photo of the part showing the symbol. He and his alter egos subsequently posted several guesses (alpha,omega,etc), but all were wrong. Last fall, after I got back from the Rendezvous, I took another piece from the same source to an Amish furniture maker nw of where I live. He identified it as Lebanese cedar and "very old, maybe from the back of a book" [spine].
It's curved and about 3 1/2 " long, so it would have been a pretty thick book. The larger pieces, including the one with the symbol, remain where I found them.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

The Seven Cities of Cibola! A fine parallel to the story of Calalus. Could it be that Ben, et alia, constructed their story using the original legend of the seven cities as a basis for their own tale? I have always maintained that the best fiction uses history, or in this case legend, to make their own efforts more believable.

Here's a little history of how I became involved in Ben's web:

Late/Ben got in touch with me, asking if I could put them in touch with a museum that would be interested in the signed Ely book, along with sixteen letters concerning the LDM.

I introduced them to David L., who was working for the museum at the time. He put them in touch with George, and they exchanged e-mails.
I have those e-mails (both sides) and the museum showed a great deal of interest in the book and letters. It was Ben who cut off the contacts. The "artifacts" came into the story much later.

The only possible reason for this long.....long, ever developing story, could only be in preparation for another book on Calalus. Nothing else makes sense.

As I told Ben a long time ago, you need only show me a copy of the signature page in Ely's book and I will be convinced that, at least, the start of your story had some truth. Although I was told they would send it to me, of course, it never came. I have those e-mails as well.

On the other hand, it's been an interesting ride. I would buy the book for it's entertainment value.:icon_study::icon_biggrin:

Joe Ribaudo
 

Garry,

I now have little doubt that Waltz, the LA Waltz, is the Waltz of the “Dutch Jacob” legend. Dr. Blair and his publisher did an amazing job pulling it all together. So, it seems that Henry Youngblood’s find in the Bradshaw Mt. is the Lost Dutchman, and Jacob Waltz’s find in the Superstitions (if he had one) is the Dutch Jacob Mine. For me, it boils down to the Declaration Of Intention. If it is genuine, and I see no reason to doubt it, than Jacob Waltz and Higham’s Walzer, Jacob Walzer, who arrived in 1861 at New York’s Castle Garden, cannot be the same person. To confirm this, Higham himself claimed to have a photograph of Jacob Walzer taken in Jersey City, NJ in 1864. Jacob Waltz was already in Arizona by 1864. Garry, one thing that I would ask is that you look at the original 1848 document again. I think that it may be “five” years in the United States, not “nine” as suggested by Dr. Blair. That would place Waltz’s date of arrival in the U.S. around 1843, not 1839.

And what about Higham’s Jacob Walzer? I now see that it was all based on the mysterious Jacob Walz of Oberschwandorf. Blair agrees that Walz was likely the origional name, however now it is clear that Jacob Walzer and Jacob Waltz (Walz) are two unique people.

"In 1864, we find him in Prescott, Territorial Capital of Arizona. The United States census of that year list him as Jacob Waltzer (not Walz, Waltz or Waly)..." another reason to proof the original 1864 census. Is this Higham or Barnard??

I wonder why Waltz never filed on his claim in the Superstitions? Waltz was entitled to do so which makes be think that the discovery was something more than a typical mining claim.

Starman1, Klondike,

I don’t know what is in that box, but yes, I do think about it. I can only imagine that whatever it is, it confirms Blair’s possible doubt concerning the Waltz name. As I said, I can’t get to that box right now, however Dr. Blair’s wonderful wife is still with us and her recall is incredible. So, I have a little insight into Blair’s mind while writing with Fireman and his staff.

I also agree with you about Herman Petrasch and don’t doubt his belief in the Walzer name. But again, it cannot be the Walzer who arrived in 1861. That Jacob Walzer is a true mystery… I have not given up on him either, but you must agree that he is not the Dutch Jacob of the Superstitions. Your “gatekeeper” if indeed he was a “gatekeeper”, can be traced to Mississippi in 1848; actually 1847. Beyond that date it’s anyone’s guess. What is not clear is the connection to Charles Hauselt of New York. Was he Walzer’s or Waltz’s (Walz) cousin. Higham stated that he would never disclose Walzer's NY family name, but in my copy of Barnard’s book Hauslet (Hauselt) is named. I wonder if Higham’s first edition withholds the Hauselt name and if Barnard added it in later editions disclosing Higham's secret? Anyway, starman should be able to set the record straight if he is writing a book on the topic. I hope that he does.

I understand that starman’s goal is to promote the Tucson Artifacts and to perhaps tell (publish) the amazing story behind them, but if you are going to “spin me like a top”, you/he will first need to answer the Waltz, Walzer, Walz question.

At this point, I am still looking for Jacob Walzer who arrived at NY in 61. Why? Hope… that Higham was something more than a BS’er. There are still several people named Jacob Walzer that need to researched, including two in the U.S. Army (Missouri & PA), a shoemaker in Kentucky, a laborer in Lincoln, Nebraska, and the one that has my attention, Jacob Walzer, the miner living in Leadville, CO in 1894. I believe that there is another Lost Dutchman's mine in CO?

Hal,

It would appear you're off to the races again. The truth in this matter is nebulous, to say the least. It's taken most of us a number of years to find the threads of what might be the truth.

Good luck,

Joe
 

Wayne,

Good thing to see that Steven T. fixed his "faux pas". Better a correction than wholesale deletions, as in the past. With all the false (made up) stories that surround the LDM these days, there is no need for further confusion.

Joe
 

Hi

I want to read one day the valid story about LDM and the place where is it . Maybe someone who can judge the false from the valid , can to tell us ? :icon_scratch:

Marius
 

Wayne,

Good thing to see that Steven T. fixed his "faux pas". Better a correction than wholesale deletions, as in the past. With all the false (made up) stories that surround the LDM these days, there is no need for further confusion.

Joe

Joe:
Yes,I noticed that he had. And that he didn't.
No harm in challenging what can be proven false, so long as the proof can be brought to the debate.
Or questioning the validity of, or background of a source. It's all part of digging for the truth.
And what's at the bottom often turns out to be half of one and half of the other.
And where we once thought we knew it all , what we find is we really didn't.
I still think you're barkin up the wrong tree in this case.
But time will tell I guess.

Regards:Wayne
 

The Way

Gentlemen:

It is important to keep in mind what is important and what is not. What will be remembered and what will be forgotten. What will be remembered is that the Tucson Artifacts have now been elevated in the public awareness and a forensic geologist believes them to be genuine. What will also be remembered is the statements made by Starman as to the history of Calalus, including his specific comments regarding native american oral history and his detailed analysis of the Artifacts as a Map, that takes one to specific locations in the Superstition Mountains. The history he presented and his efforts to help identify possible avenues for research will also be remembered. I suspect what will also be remembered was his efforts to engage debate on the artifacts and the almost shrill refusal to do so by folks who simply do not have what it takes to have such a conversation whether it be regarding Jacob Walzer or the artifacts themselves.

I think it will also be remembered that to have an honest discussion one must be open and Joe has never been that. Whether it is his attempts to buy artifacts, his continual reference to the Bent/McGee correspondence without even the pretense of sharing the correspondence. You see to do so would present even more evidence to support the existence of the Calalus settlers in the Superstition Mountains. Sadly enough it is just a continuation of previous behavior that involves trying to buy artifacts for his own self gain or in this case hiding information. It is just a habit, a habit that will never be broken. It is one thing to protect the holy it is another thing to be consumed by greed.

Somehiker, I am sorry you have such an opinion. In looking back over your post on another website I believe you are referencing this:

Ben:
I do not have a solution,let alone one comparable to others.So I cannot suggest that other solutions are wrong,or complete.I do occasionally express my views regarding what I see as unlikely or illogical assumptions....often with a dash of sarcasm for effect.
What I have found,so far,in my attempts to reconcile that which appears on the Stones with what can be found on the ground in and out of the mountains,only indicates to me that I have yet to connect the obvious with what was considered more valuable.More valuable by those who left their mark on one,but not the other.

If you can describe this "mark",which in a simplified version appears on one of the Stones,you will gain great credibility with me at least.I may even post a good quality photo of the "mark" and a "container" on which the mark is present as proof of your story.
Otherwise,save your "gone" claims for someone else.

Regards:SH.

I believe that most reasonable persons would say that your challenge was a bit oblique. Oblique to the point that Dog thought you were just playing games and so we responded accordingly.

Now you say this is what you meant:

Joe:
Could be, but "Terra Calalus" sounds to me like just another variation of the "Antilla" legends which speak of a similar exodus in ce 714.
As for Bent, I have no idea when or how.
I've always been more interested in Klondike Ben's dogged insistence to include the Stone Maps, the LDM, and anything else of significance said to exist in and around the Sups, as part of his fantasy. I haven't read the McGee's ideas on their version of the tale, or why they thought there was any connection, so I can't really offer any opinion. I stopped commenting on Ben's claims a couple of years ago, after offering him a trade. He was to describe a symbol likely to be found on an old piece of wood which I might then consider good evidence for his statements. If he was correct, I would then post a photo of the part showing the symbol. He and his alter egos subsequently posted several guesses (alpha,omega,etc), but all were wrong. Last fall, after I got back from the Rendezvous, I took another piece from the same source to an Amish furniture maker nw of where I live. He identified it as Lebanese cedar and "very old, maybe from the back of a book" [spine].
It's curved and about 3 1/2 " long, so it would have been a pretty thick book. The larger pieces, including the one with the symbol, remain where I found them.

Now do you really see much of a relationship between what you claim today and what you challenged years ago?

While I could be wrong, we really do not know everything that goes on in the range nor have we claimed to, it seems you may have come across something to do with the creator of the Trail Maps. The Trail Maps, their original rendition, were created by a lady and fellow associates who were in the Superstitions looking for Oz. She and her associates came from the Middle East and it seems their port of origin was what is now Lebanon.

What is sad is that you have something that is probably very unique and I suspect there are other things there that would also establish a Middle Eastern presence in the Superstitions at an early date. Too bad Mr. Haury is not alive today and could have a go at your discovery. Imagine it would not take long for someone to accuse of planting the discovery.

Mr. Croves:

While I to am a Gatekeeper I am a rather old one and have neither the energy nor the inclination to spin anyone like a top and put them in a house of mirrors. Just keep in mind that Gatekeepers having being doing this for well over a thousand years. The Lost Dutchman legend is the result of our efforts. Having said that the efforts of Walter Glasser were truely phenomenal. He was a true master in beaching whales and his exploits and successes were incredible. He has always been my personal hero. Quite the man.

All I would really share with you is that what you have been told about Jacob is true, what you discover and the reality you uncover is ultimately a relfection of you and no one else.

I wish you well.


What is important is that Oz exists, the settlement of the ancients exist and there is a library in South Africa that tells the whole story. I believe one day that someone who saw the tv program on the Artifacts will sense wonder. They will remember Mr. Bent`s work that was shown and begin a journey of truth that will take them to Oz. It will not be an easy trail. They will be exposed to science that will claim the relics are fake, this they will overcome. They will visit the Superstitions and much like the MCGee`s see and experience things that simply do not add up. They perhaps will see these posts and begin to look at the Tucson Artifacts and go high up on a Saddle on the east side of West Boulder Canyon, see the symbol of the ancients, and follow the trail all the way to Horse Mesa. From there they will probably find something we have missed and make their way into the underground chambers there and follow the cave system that will take them up into Coronado Mesa and into the library of Oz. There they will see the map room that was the creation point of the trail maps and they will notice a simple chair. They will walk over to that chair and on that chair will be the address of a museum in South Africa with one simple message, "May the Stars keep you safe" I would imagine they will keep all of this to themselves and make their way to South Africa and knock on the entrance. I suspect they will bring the note and simply say, "May the stars keep you safe". They will be allowed in and experence the awe of wonder of the most important historical site in the world.


I look forward to meeting such a man.


May the stars keep you safe.


B.
 

Gentlemen:

It is important to keep in mind what is important and what is not. What will be remembered and what will be forgotten. What will be remembered is that the Tucson Artifacts have now been elevated in the public awareness and a forensic geologist believes them to be genuine. What will also be remembered is the statements made by Starman as to the history of Calalus, including his specific comments regarding native american oral history and his detailed analysis of the Artifacts as a Map, that takes one to specific locations in the Superstition Mountains. The history he presented and his efforts to help identify possible avenues for research will also be remembered. I suspect what will also be remembered was his efforts to engage debate on the artifacts and the almost shrill refusal to do so by folks who simply do not have what it takes to have such a conversation whether it be regarding Jacob Walzer or the artifacts themselves.

I think it will also be remembered that to have an honest discussion one must be open and Joe has never been that. Whether it is his attempts to buy artifacts, his continual reference to the Bent/McGee correspondence without even the pretense of sharing the correspondence. You see to do so would present even more evidence to support the existence of the Calalus settlers in the Superstition Mountains. Sadly enough it is just a continuation of previous behavior that involves trying to buy artifacts for his own self gain or in this case hiding information. It is just a habit, a habit that will never be broken. It is one thing to protect the holy it is another thing to be consumed by greed.

Somehiker, I am sorry you have such an opinion. In looking back over your post on another website I believe you are referencing this:

Ben:
I do not have a solution,let alone one comparable to others.So I cannot suggest that other solutions are wrong,or complete.I do occasionally express my views regarding what I see as unlikely or illogical assumptions....often with a dash of sarcasm for effect.
What I have found,so far,in my attempts to reconcile that which appears on the Stones with what can be found on the ground in and out of the mountains,only indicates to me that I have yet to connect the obvious with what was considered more valuable.More valuable by those who left their mark on one,but not the other.

If you can describe this "mark",which in a simplified version appears on one of the Stones,you will gain great credibility with me at least.I may even post a good quality photo of the "mark" and a "container" on which the mark is present as proof of your story.
Otherwise,save your "gone" claims for someone else.

Regards:SH.

I believe that most reasonable persons would say that your challenge was a bit oblique. Oblique to the point that Dog thought you were just playing games and so we responded accordingly.

Now you say this is what you meant:

Joe:
Could be, but "Terra Calalus" sounds to me like just another variation of the "Antilla" legends which speak of a similar exodus in ce 714.
As for Bent, I have no idea when or how.
I've always been more interested in Klondike Ben's dogged insistence to include the Stone Maps, the LDM, and anything else of significance said to exist in and around the Sups, as part of his fantasy. I haven't read the McGee's ideas on their version of the tale, or why they thought there was any connection, so I can't really offer any opinion. I stopped commenting on Ben's claims a couple of years ago, after offering him a trade. He was to describe a symbol likely to be found on an old piece of wood which I might then consider good evidence for his statements. If he was correct, I would then post a photo of the part showing the symbol. He and his alter egos subsequently posted several guesses (alpha,omega,etc), but all were wrong. Last fall, after I got back from the Rendezvous, I took another piece from the same source to an Amish furniture maker nw of where I live. He identified it as Lebanese cedar and "very old, maybe from the back of a book" [spine].
It's curved and about 3 1/2 " long, so it would have been a pretty thick book. The larger pieces, including the one with the symbol, remain where I found them.

Now do you really see much of a relationship between what you claim today and what you challenged years ago?

While I could be wrong, we really do not know everything that goes on in the range nor have we claimed to, it seems you may have come across something to do with the creator of the Trail Maps. The Trail Maps, their original rendition, were created by a lady and fellow associates who were in the Superstitions looking for Oz. She and her associates came from the Middle East and it seems their port of origin was what is now Lebanon.

What is sad is that you have something that is probably very unique and I suspect there are other things there that would also establish a Middle Eastern presence in the Superstitions at an early date. Too bad Mr. Haury is not alive today and could have a go at your discovery. Imagine it would not take long for someone to accuse of planting the discovery.

Mr. Croves:

While I to am a Gatekeeper I am a rather old one and have neither the energy nor the inclination to spin anyone like a top and put them in a house of mirrors. Just keep in mind that Gatekeepers having being doing this for well over a thousand years. The Lost Dutchman legend is the result of our efforts. Having said that the efforts of Walter Glasser were truely phenomenal. He was a true master in beaching whales and his exploits and successes were incredible. He has always been my personal hero. Quite the man.

All I would really share with you is that what you have been told about Jacob is true, what you discover and the reality you uncover is ultimately a relfection of you and no one else.

I wish you well.


What is important is that Oz exists, the settlement of the ancients exist and there is a library in South Africa that tells the whole story. I believe one day that someone who saw the tv program on the Artifacts will sense wonder. They will remember Mr. Bent`s work that was shown and begin a journey of truth that will take them to Oz. It will not be an easy trail. They will be exposed to science that will claim the relics are fake, this they will overcome. They will visit the Superstitions and much like the MCGee`s see and experience things that simply do not add up. They perhaps will see these posts and begin to look at the Tucson Artifacts and go high up on a Saddle on the east side of West Boulder Canyon, see the symbol of the ancients, and follow the trail all the way to Horse Mesa. From there they will probably find something we have missed and make their way into the underground chambers there and follow the cave system that will take them up into Coronado Mesa and into the library of Oz. There they will see the map room that was the creation point of the trail maps and they will notice a simple chair. They will walk over to that chair and on that chair will be the address of a museum in South Africa with one simple message, "May the Stars keep you safe" I would imagine they will keep all of this to themselves and make their way to South Africa and knock on the entrance. I suspect they will bring the note and simply say, "May the stars keep you safe". They will be allowed in and experence the awe of wonder of the most important historical site in the world.


I look forward to meeting such a man.


May the stars keep you safe.


B.

Ben,

Here is the offer to buy:
______________________

From: havasho@citlink.net
Date: 2/14/2005 12:09:36 AM
To: ben.davis@charter.net
Cc: havasho@citlink.net
Subject: Ely's Letters


Hello late49er,

The following is an email sent to you by Joe Ribaudo via your account on Lost Dutchman Gold Mine - Gold Mining. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address:

webmaster@thelostdutchmangoldmine.com

Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of Joe Ribaudo.

Message sent to you follows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ben,

I would imagine you have received a few requests already, so I will add mine to the bunch.

I have a small collection of signed first editions concerning the LDM and Arizona History. While my trips into the Superstitions have come to a halt, I still do research and would love to have anything concerning Sims Ely. If you were to go back through the posts, you will find that I have been defending his work for a number of years.

I will be happy to pay for any costs, and would consider any reasonable price if that is something you are considering. The letters would be a great addition to my research material. I am, of course, speaking of copies only. I recently donated some original family letters to Greg Davis for the Museum, and I hope that is what you will be doing as well.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
2125 McCulloch Blvd.
Ste. B
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403

928-855-8655 Days
____________________

You have sunk pretty low here, Ben. What is it you teach at the University.......Legal Ethics?

Joe Ribaudo

.
 

Joe:
Yes,I noticed that he had. And that he didn't.
No harm in challenging what can be proven false, so long as the proof can be brought to the debate.
Or questioning the validity of, or background of a source. It's all part of digging for the truth.
And what's at the bottom often turns out to be half of one and half of the other.
And where we once thought we knew it all , what we find is we really didn't.
I still think you're barkin up the wrong tree in this case.
But time will tell I guess.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

I see....I make the claim, elsewhere on this forum, that Steven Trost and Azhiker are the same person and you find that accusation unreasonable. Now Trost signs his post on DUSA "Azhiker", and you say I am "barkin up the wrong tree....".
I would say that I have a pretty valid argument "in this case".

Kind of interesting watching you make your intellectual argument. Don't believe you have even located "the wrong tree" or any tree whatsoever.

Joe Ribaudo
 

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