The Book Club

[somehiker]

Ben:
If you would care to point to any differences, I would be happy to debate them.

"Ben:
I do not have a solution,let alone one comparable to others.So I cannot suggest that other solutions are wrong,or complete.I do occasionally express my views regarding what I see as unlikely or illogical assumptions....often with a dash of sarcasm for effect.
What I have found,so far,in my attempts to reconcile that which appears on the Stones with what can be found on the ground in and out of the mountains,only indicates to me that I have yet to connect the obvious with what was considered more valuable.More valuable by those who left their mark on one,but not the other.

If you can describe this "mark",which in a simplified version appears on one of the Stones,you will gain great credibility with me at least.I may even post a good quality photo of the "mark" and a "container" on which the mark is present as proof of your story.
Otherwise,save your "gone" claims for someone else.

Regards:SH.

I believe that most reasonable persons would say that your challenge was a bit oblique. Oblique to the point that Dog thought you were just playing games and so we responded accordingly.

Now you say this is what you meant:

Joe:
Could be, but "Terra Calalus" sounds to me like just another variation of the "Antilla" legends which speak of a similar exodus in ce 714.
As for Bent, I have no idea when or how.
I've always been more interested in Klondike Ben's dogged insistence to include the Stone Maps, the LDM, and anything else of significance said to exist in and around the Sups, as part of his fantasy. I haven't read the McGee's ideas on their version of the tale, or why they thought there was any connection, so I can't really offer any opinion. I stopped commenting on Ben's claims a couple of years ago, after offering him a trade. He was to describe a symbol likely to be found on an old piece of wood which I might then consider good evidence for his statements. If he was correct, I would then post a photo of the part showing the symbol. He and his alter egos subsequently posted several guesses (alpha,omega,etc), but all were wrong. Last fall, after I got back from the Rendezvous, I took another piece from the same source to an Amish furniture maker nw of where I live. He identified it as Lebanese cedar and "very old, maybe from the back of a book" [spine].
It's curved and about 3 1/2 " long, so it would have been a pretty thick book. The larger pieces, including the one with the symbol, remain where I found them.

Now do you really see much of a relationship between what you claim today and what you challenged years ago?"

Not sure what you see as oblique, since I didn't use any big words or mention "OZ" or the "Other", soul canyon or even the "Barranca Grande".
What you did get, in yesterday's post, was a brief update on the status of a place which you had claimed to be destroyed, first by an earthquake, then by your group, and the contents which you had said were removed. The sliver of broken wood I brought home with me last fall has no markings, unlike the box I mentioned beforehand, which remains in the cave along with whatever else is there. I and a couple of other posters did find and investigate another curiosity last fall. Probably be right up your "alley"...cryptically speaking of course. But rather than seeing it's provenience added to your list of waypoints to S. Africa, I will post the photos in more relevant thread later.

Regards:SH.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Now that would be an interesting post.

Joe

 

[peralta]

Hello hal, my brother told me some millionaire hid treasure and wrote a book giving clues.it is sad that he has cancer.the show was on television monday.hope you and your family are doing well.
TAKE CARE
TOM

 

[Hal Croves]

starman 1,
I am beginning to see a pattern in your posts that leaves me with some uneasy feelings. It seems that every time I offer you (whomever you are) the chance to resolve any of the conflicts associated with Waltz and your incredible story, you cock-block us with meaningless responses. Is this the roll of a gatekeeper? To keep people interested, but at such a distance that they can never actually resolve their own questions? Who would be responsible if someone were to become injured or killed while following your quasi-instructions? Would you be able to live with yourself? I watched the video of the Tucson Artifacts last night and there are MANY issues with the conclusions drawn. The host of that show makes the same mistakes in several of his episodes. Note, he said that the crystals that grew on the lead can take a few years to a few hundred to form. That is a very BIG time frame and yet he concludes that it must be from 800AD. No testing of the objects lead, no testing of the lead from the nearby mine, no comparison of leads, no dating of the lead mine or even a look at its history. Look again at the photograph of the finders in that video... note the woman to the right (our left) who is looking down, as if she is embarrassed. I wonder who she may be? It is a great story and I would love to believe, but there is just as much chance that they are a hoax.

I went back and reread the first PM that you sent to me a few years ago. It was about my reading of the stone maps. Do you remember? It seemed to me that you believed that I was correct. If that is still the case, the stone maps have nothing to do with your story. Why? Because for me, they are without question a modern creation. I have the artists name, the place where I believe they were made, and what I belive to be the reason for carving them. We shall see.

 

[starman 1]

The Way

Mr. Croves,

Good to hear from you. It is a shame you did not take the opportunity to dialogue with Starman. Being who he is he was a great source for your interests. Maybe you should not have thrown him under the train so quickly.

As far as the artifacts go instead of me wasting my time in trying to explain rather basic things to you take the time to locate and read Mr. Bent`s work. After that if you still have the same questions I would be very surprised.

As far as the maps go if you believe they are a modern creation that is fine with me. Perhaps you and Somehiker can entertain a discussion on that issue. I suspect the two of you see things differently.

As far as safety goes anyone entering the range should understand the dangers and risk of such a enterprise. There are risks in all of life`s activities and each of us must decide on our own what is appropriate and what is not. You did not seemed concerned about folks falling out of hot air balloons in the Superstitions verifying your theories. How could you live with yourself in such an event? If we start locking up folks who write about the Superstitions imagine the jails will fill up quite quickly.

Is cock-block some kind of young person`s term. Not sure I understand what you mean. Seems pretty oblique.

Martin is gone as was stated. And all of us have wished you well in you efforts. Just do your homework and everything will work out. It seems you are perhaps a bit lazy. Find you own answers. I will afford you one more clue just to help you along. Gatekeepers tend to leave messages in publications and other forms of communication that the general public will never really pick up on. Actually we find it quite funny. Jake left one such form of communication that only a Gatekeeper could appreciate. On page 134 of Helen Corbin`s work is a drawing that Jake made. This drawing shows the saddle high up on the east side of W. Boulder Canyon. The beginning of the trail to Oz.


Somehiker,


I re-read your comments this morning and still do not let`s say understand your points. Futhermore obliqueness seems a proper description of your efforts. It strikes me you do not understand why you comment is so confusing because you have never seen the map room of Oz and the wealth of symbols that the creator of the maps copied. The map room is a mis-mash of symbols used by our people and the ancients to describe trails, etc., in the range. When the creator copied a number of these symbols I don`t really believed she understood what she was doing. This is understandable given the circumstances. Her party had used the information they had to get from the middle east to their encampment that existed north or the Salt River across from Fish Creek Canyon and Coronado and Horse Mesa. Once her exploratory team made their way into Oz the encampment was attacked by locals killing all but the few in Oz. From what we can tell they made their way from Oz using a existing trail to the saddle high above the east side of West Boulder Canyon. There they created two more maps, left them in the monuments that used to exist there, made their way out of the range in a southernly direction finally ending up back in the middle east. Her husband was buried near the heart in Little Boulder Canyon. I am sharing this with you so you can appreciate the complexity of the maps, and the difficulties of their creation. Just a side bar. A world class archeaologist from Harvard University was involved in the Oz project for over 20 years and before she passed away had only figured out less than 20% of the symbols the ancients used. So I guess it is understandble that what you see as perfectly clear we see as terribly confusing.

As far as debating goes I am not sure what there is to debate. I have answered your question as best I can and like I said Dog feels like well you know. Not sure how you debate obliqueness. Seems to be in the eyes of the beholder.

You and Joe really should share your discoveries. Who knows perhaps other folks out there might come forward with additional information that would flesh out what you have. Obviously this is not about convincing us of anything. We have known the truth for a long time, long before it was cool to believe in the Artifacts.

As far as your other comments go perhaps you should take the words of Jim Bark to heart as Sims Ely recalled them in his work the Lost Dutchman Mine. Perhaps reading his comments about Horse Mesa would also be helpful. Mr. Bark said:

"Hunting the Dutchman is not for old men. Nor for old prospectors who sit on park benches in our western towns
still filled wih hope, exaggeration, specimens and nicotine. They must step aside and let the younger generation
hunt the dutchman, chew their own tobacco, tell there own lies and buy or steal their specimens. Someone someday will
fit the parts together more successfully than we have done. Good luck to him".

I could only smile when I first read this because I knew Jim Bark was talking about Oz. So tell me Somehiker do you really believe that folks who have cared for these places and truely love them the way we do destroy them? Seperate the wheat from the Chaff.

Mr. Ribaudo

Seems your panties are in a wad again. How goes your reading of the Bent/McGee papers going? Imagine it is quite exciting. You should share with folks if you can.

Anyway your response is a bit funny given all of the horrible things you have said through the years. Don`t think any of us could approach the low zone you inhabit. But for the moment I will assume you are a human being and ask a few questions that will help me get to the bottom of something that has bothered me for a long time. It is fairly obvious you have a number of folks who well dislike you and maybe we were dealing with two Joe Ribaudo`s. Do you have an e-mail address that is J.Ribaudo@, and do you have two associates named Carl Weinstein, and Tom Butler? When all of this started we received a number of emails from this Mr. Ribaudo offering $280,000.00 for the book and letters. I always found this odd since at the time no one knew what this was all about. This Mr. Ribaudo was very insistant to buy the information and wanted to meet in a TGIFridays`s in Mesa Arizona. Obviously this did not happen and now I wonder if these people were folks that knew about Oz and were trying to get us along. Anyway it was probalbly something you did in your Heidi phase and just forgot.


B.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Croves,

Good to hear from you. It is a shame you did not take the opportunity to dialogue with Starman. Being who he is he was a great source for your interests. Maybe you should not have thrown him under the train so quickly.

As far as the artifacts go instead of me wasting my time in trying to explain rather basic things to you take the time to locate and read Mr. Bent`s work. After that if you still have the same questions I would be very surprised.

As far as the maps go if you believe they are a modern creation that is fine with me. Perhaps you and Somehiker can entertain a discussion on that issue. I suspect the two of you see things differently.

As far as safety goes anyone entering the range should understand the dangers and risk of such a enterprise. There are risks in all of life`s activities and each of us must decide on our own what is appropriate and what is not. You did not seemed concerned about folks falling out of hot air balloons in the Superstitions verifying your theories. How could you live with yourself in such an event? If we start locking up folks who write about the Superstitions imagine the jails will fill up quite quickly.

Is cock-block some kind of young person`s term. Not sure I understand what you mean. Seems pretty oblique.

Martin is gone as was stated. And all of us have wished you well in you efforts. Just do your homework and everything will work out. It seems you are perhaps a bit lazy. Find you own answers. I will afford you one more clue just to help you along. Gatekeepers tend to leave messages in publications and other forms of communication that the general public will never really pick up on. Actually we find it quite funny. Jake left one such form of communication that only a Gatekeeper could appreciate. On page 134 of Helen Corbin`s work is a drawing that Jake made. This drawing shows the saddle high up on the east side of W. Boulder Canyon. The beginning of the trail to Oz.


Somehiker,


I re-read your comments this morning and still do not let`s say understand your points. Futhermore obliqueness seems a proper description of your efforts. It strikes me you do not understand why you comment is so confusing because you have never seen the map room of Oz and the wealth of symbols that the creator of the maps copied. The map room is a mis-mash of symbols used by our people and the ancients to describe trails, etc., in the range. When the creator copied a number of these symbols I don`t really believed she understood what she was doing. This is understandable given the circumstances. Her party had used the information they had to get from the middle east to their encampment that existed north or the Salt River across from Fish Creek Canyon and Coronado and Horse Mesa. Once her exploratory team made their way into Oz the encampment was attacked by locals killing all but the few in Oz. From what we can tell they made their way from Oz using a existing trail to the saddle high above the east side of West Boulder Canyon. There they created two more maps, left them in the monuments that used to exist there, made their way out of the range in a southernly direction finally ending up back in the middle east. Her husband was buried near the heart in Little Boulder Canyon. I am sharing this with you so you can appreciate the complexity of the maps, and the difficulties of their creation. Just a side bar. A world class archeaologist from Harvard University was involved in the Oz project for over 20 years and before she passed away had only figured out less than 20% of the symbols the ancients used. So I guess it is understandble that what you see as perfectly clear we see as terribly confusing.

As far as debating goes I am not sure what there is to debate. I have answered your question as best I can and like I said Dog feels like well you know. Not sure how you debate obliqueness. Seems to be in the eyes of the beholder.

You and Joe really should share your discoveries. Who knows perhaps other folks out there might come forward with additional information that would flesh out what you have. Obviously this is not about convincing us of anything. We have known the truth for a long time, long before it was cool to believe in the Artifacts.

As far as your other comments go perhaps you should take the words of Jim Bark to heart as Sims Ely recalled them in his work the Lost Dutchman Mine. Perhaps reading his comments about Horse Mesa would also be helpful. Mr. Bark said:

"Hunting the Dutchman is not for old men. Nor for old prospectors who sit on park benches in our western towns
still filled wih hope, exaggeration, specimens and nicotine. They must step aside and let the younger generation
hunt the dutchman, chew their own tobacco, tell there own lies and buy or steal their specimens. Someone someday will
fit the parts together more successfully than we have done. Good luck to him".

I could only smile when I first read this because I knew Jim Bark was talking about Oz. So tell me Somehiker do you really believe that folks who have cared for these places and truely love them the way we do destroy them? Seperate the wheat from the Chaff.

Mr. Ribaudo

Seems your panties are in a wad again. How goes your reading of the Bent/McGee papers going? Imagine it is quite exciting. You should share with folks if you can.

Anyway your response is a bit funny given all of the horrible things you have said through the years. Don`t think any of us could approach the low zone you inhabit. But for the moment I will assume you are a human being and ask a few questions that will help me get to the bottom of something that has bothered me for a long time. It is fairly obvious you have a number of folks who well dislike you and maybe we were dealing with two Joe Ribaudo`s. Do you have an e-mail address that is J.Ribaudo@, and do you have two associates named Carl Weinstein, and Tom Butler? When all of this started we received a number of emails from this Mr. Ribaudo offering $280,000.00 for the book and letters. I always found this odd since at the time no one knew what this was all about. This Mr. Ribaudo was very insistant to buy the information and wanted to meet in a TGIFridays`s in Mesa Arizona. Obviously this did not happen and now I wonder if these people were folks that knew about Oz and were trying to get us along. Anyway it was probalbly something you did in your Heidi phase and just forgot.


B.

Mr. Bojangles,

It's a riot watching you dance around the facts. I post them, you dance.

You should spend a lot less time thinking about my underwear, and focus on ways to make your story more believable. The more you post, the more your story disappears down the rabbit hole. My posts, I believe, have always been less than serious, unless I am discussing the more egregious personal fibs you have tried to float with/about me.

This latest fantasy, highlighted in bold, is just another fabrication in a long list of such things, trying to explain away the truth reflected in the e-mails I posted, for which you have no logical explanation.

IMHO, you should just put an end to these posts. My guess is that they have been nothing more than trying to establish some kind of familiarity of "facts" which will one day appear in a novel (fiction) couched in quasi-history. The more you post, the farther down the whole story drops into that rabbit hole.

It's true that I have a "number of folks who well dislike" me. I have a few friends as well.
You place way too much importance on the effect your posts have on me. They are a humorous diversion and nothing more.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

"Mr. Croves,

Good to hear from you. It is a shame you did not take the opportunity to dialogue with Starman. Being who he is he was a great source for your interests. Maybe you should not have thrown him under the train so quickly."

I thought that by asking very direct questions I was attempting to "dialog", however it seems that instead of a free exchange of ideas, you?, he?, they? only want to preach. Preaching is a sign of insecurity... in mind. When one preaches, I honestly believe that they are in fact searching for that one individual who will show them the critical flaw in their belief system. It is quite sad. And I am not sure that I have intentionally thrown anyone "under the bus", but if someone feels that way, I apologize. However, had I re-posted starman's PM without his permission, it may have had the same effect.

"As far as the artifacts go instead of me wasting my time in trying to explain rather basic things to you take the time to locate and read Mr. Bent`s work. After that if you still have the same questions I would be very surprised."

My issue was and is with the host of the television series. He is far from objective. "Trust the man who finds solace in proving himself wrong".

"As far as the maps go if you believe they are a modern creation that is fine with me. Perhaps you and Somehiker can entertain a discussion on that issue. I suspect the two of you see things differently."

We have from the start, but he has my respect. Again, we are, each of us, entitled to our theories.

"As far as safety goes anyone entering the range should understand the dangers and risk of such a enterprise. There are risks in all of life`s activities and each of us must decide on our own what is appropriate and what is not. You did not seemed concerned about folks falling out of hot air balloons in the Superstitions verifying your theories. How could you live with yourself in such an event? If we start locking up folks who write about the Superstitions imagine the jails will fill up quite quickly."

If you could find someone who would be willing to fly that balloon over the Superstitions, I would be the first to ask for a ride. Actually, all that would be needed is an early aerial photograph. But, here you are correct. I believed the 1847 inscription and built a theory around that being the date of creation. Was it possible in 1847 to fly a balloon over Arizona and to take pictures? Yes, but it is unlikely that it ever happened. I proved myself wrong through research and listening to reason. The difference between my "theory" and your "preaching" of a truth is what I find troubling.

"Is cock-block some kind of young person`s term. Not sure I understand what you mean. Seems pretty oblique."

I don't consider myself to be a "young person" but when dealing with egos, it is quite descriptive. Remove the sexual aspects from this quote and you might understand: What is a cock blocker? - GuySpeak

"Martin is gone as was stated. And all of us have wished you well in you efforts. Just do your homework and everything will work out. It seems you are perhaps a bit lazy. Find you own answers. I will afford you one more clue just to help you along. Gatekeepers tend to leave messages in publications and other forms of communication that the general public will never really pick up on. Actually we find it quite funny. Jake left one such form of communication that only a Gatekeeper could appreciate. On page 134 of Helen Corbin`s work is a drawing that Jake made. This drawing shows the saddle high up on the east side of W. Boulder Canyon. The beginning of the trail to Oz."

I don't know that I would agree with the "lazy" description. Overwhelmed and pressed for time may be a more honest way to describe me. Thank you for the well wishes.

 

[cactusjumper]

Ben,

"On page 134 of Helen Corbin`s work is a drawing that Jake made. This drawing shows the saddle high up on the east side of W. Boulder Canyon. The beginning of the trail to Oz."

I do have a pertinent question for you:

How does one approach the saddle to start down the trail? No fair using my map for an answer.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Ben,

Here is one of the responses you received from the museum:

"........Superstition Mountain Historical Society a non-profit organization- which operates a museum in Apache Junction, Arizona......a museum devoted entirely and exclusively to the legends, lore, facts, fiction and fancy surrounding these world-known, beautiful and mysterious mountains.

Our mission, since our inception some 25 years ago, is to record, preserve and provide information about these mountains to whoever has serious interest in them. In fact, our library is the most extensive known that is concerned specifically with this area and even those searching for information and who have already used the libraries of both the University of Arizona and ArizonaStateUniversity often ask for access to our collection. We are extremely proud of our reputation as custodians of the history of the Superstitions......from the time they were formed, geologically, up thru the millennia which has included many cultures who have lived in and around the mountains... thru the Spanish era....that of the fur trappers, miners, ranchers up to the present......and, of course, the story of Jacob Waltz and his lost mine is included in our mission and our museum shop book section contains many, many books, tracts, pamphlets, maps, etc., dealing with the world-renowned story.

I would be remiss if I did not ask that you consider the SuperstitionMountain Historical Society and the Superstition Mountain/Lost Dutchman Museum an appropriate place for your collection of material concerning our own backyard.

Sincerely,"
_____________________________
The e-mail is referring to the signed Ely book, and the letters which you originally offered to the museum. You had not publicly revealed Oz or the Calalus connection yet. As you know, I have most of the other e-mails that were exchanged with you, and from you on this matter.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[starman 1]

The Way

Gentlemen:

I have to say it has been a good two months. The Bent family got some great news that at least one forensic geologist believes the artifacts to be the real deal. Obviously the science has problems as anyone who is close to this mystery knows but the efforts got the ball rolliing and that is all that is really necessary.

Have to say the show brought a lot more reasonable thought to the issue than Haury and a slew of others have. But that is a story for another day.

Starman and klondike demonstrated not only the history surrounding the Calalus artifacts and in Starman`s case he made a genuine effort to not only enter into a dialogue on Jacob Walzer but the specifics surrounding the city state that existed in what is now Arizona, Nevada and Utah. Obviously their efforts was not appreciated but that is to be expected and keep in mind this is not the only sea that bottles have been placed in. One day all of this will bear fruit.



Mr. Ribaudo,


It is sad to see someone get as desperate as you. Because in desperation one makes mistake after mistake and whether they are pointed out or not they pile up and the totality of mistakes gives the true measure of a man. In the case of Calalus and the Tucson Artifacts it was demonstrated that your knowledge of the matter is limited to secondary sources and you lack an ability to engage in a dialogue regarding the artifacts on a fundamental level. But really that is not such a big deal. Few can. But your real weakness was to not be open for the possibility that something remarkable is sort of speak in your neck of the woods. You would have done a lot better to simply engage in a dialogue admit your limited knowledge and allow Starman to work with you. He was more than willing to do so.

Another trait of desperate people if when possible they will play the integrity card. Much the same way a person who is guilty of a crime will maintain their innocence to the end even when the truth is evident. Also desperate people will get others involved in their shameful behavior. Much as you have done with the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. Tell me Joe are they too so low that they sanction the publication of private e-mails? If those folks have a wit of integrity they will disown you and explain that they had nothing to do with this. If they don`t this simply validates one of the reasons we did not pursue things with them. You see Joe, your lack of integrity has now put into question the integrity of the Historical Society. If they sanction your behavior they are no better than you and in a sense worse. Worse because they claim to be honorable folks.

As we have made it clear we do not enjoy these kind of discussions and prefer to discuss issues on their merit but I see that is impossible. And as I mentioned before you are desperate and desperate people make mistakes. But what then was the mistake you made when you played the integity card? As in other things you simply did not do your homework.


I would refer anyone reading this to take the time to look at a short dialogue that was published on another web site, "The Lost Dutchman Mine". This dialogue appears in a section moderated by Joe Ribaudo and is entitled,"Jake`s ore". the dialogue occurred in October of 2005.

What is clear in this exchange is we were up front that after pursuing several possibilites in Arizona we decided that it was best to do something different. What we were oblique about is that when we said placement in the South we meant South Africa. If you notice what is telling Mr. Ribaudo recognizes his understanding and states, "I will mind my own business here".




Late,

I would suggest that you contact greyhair on this forum, or wait for the camp out and speak to him in person.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

There is no real reason to speak with Grayhair. We have decided to donate the written material to a University in the South. We are currently discussing placement of the items with with two institutions. It is what it is.

Bill,

The information I am referencing comes from Martin`s diary. We still are debating what to do.



Regards,


Late 49er
Late,

Sorry, I just assumed you would be trying to place the material in Arizona. I will mind my own business here.

Joe,

We wanted to place the material in Arizona. It is clear that it is not wanted. We approached several entities in the state.

Joe,

I need to apologize for my remarks. Irregardless of the circumstances they were inappropriate.

I am sure the folks down there do a wonderful job in promoting Arizona at its history.


Regards,


Late49er

Bill

Have to admit there is a certain amount of humor to all of this.

But have to say the people we have selected will do a quality job and at the end of the day that is all that is really importent.

My associates are both from Georgia and we have selected an institution close to them, and actually given their efforts it is appropriate they receive recognition in their own neck of the woods.

Perhaps this history is better stored near the folks who preserved and nutured the area. Personally I am very proud of what has been done.

Hopefully we will post some material here soon that will be of interest to you.


Regards,


You see Mr. Ribaudo we do not stoop as low as you and the historical society. We simply use public sources. It is just wrong what you did.

Mr. Croves,

As anyone can see you are emotional and I am sorry if my response to you was taken wrong. I think that truthfully Martin did try to engage you and yes you threw him under the train. But that is Ok. Simply do your research.


When all is said and done I would like to repeat what I said in a previous post. It is also what Jim Bark meant. And this goes for all of us.


What is important is that Oz exists, the settlement of the ancients exist and there is a library in South Africa that tells the whole story. I believe one day that someone who saw the tv program on the Artifacts will sense wonder. They will remember Mr. Bent`s work that was shown and begin a journey of truth that will take them to Oz. It will not be an easy trail. They will be exposed to science that will claim the relics are fake, this they will overcome. They will visit the Superstitions and much like the MCGee`s see and experience things that simply do not add up. They perhaps will see these posts and begin to look at the Tucson Artifacts and go high up on a Saddle on the east side of West Boulder Canyon, see the symbol of the ancients, and follow the trail all the way to Horse Mesa. From there they will probably find something we have missed and make their way into the underground chambers there and follow the cave system that will take them up into Coronado Mesa and into the library of Oz. There they will see the map room that was the creation point of the trail maps and they will notice a simple chair. They will walk over to that chair and on that chair will be the address of a museum in South Africa with one simple message, "May the Stars keep you safe" I would imagine they will keep all of this to themselves and make their way to South Africa and knock on the entrance. I suspect they will bring the note and simply say, "May the stars keep you safe". They will be allowed in and experence the awe of wonder of the most important historical site in the world.


I look forward to meeting such a man.


May the stars keep you safe.



B

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen:

I have to say it has been a good two months. The Bent family got some great news that at least one forensic geologist believes the artifacts to be the real deal. Obviously the science has problems as anyone who is close to this mystery knows but the efforts got the ball rolliing and that is all that is really necessary.

Have to say the show brought a lot more reasonable thought to the issue than Haury and a slew of others have. But that is a story for another day.

Starman and klondike demonstrated not only the history surrounding the Calalus artifacts and in Starman`s case he made a genuine effort to not only enter into a dialogue on Jacob Walzer but the specifics surrounding the city state that existed in what is now Arizona, Nevada and Utah. Obviously their efforts was not appreciated but that is to be expected and keep in mind this is not the only sea that bottles have been placed in. One day all of this will bear fruit.



Mr. Ribaudo,


It is sad to see someone get as desperate as you. Because in desperation one makes mistake after mistake and whether they are pointed out or not they pile up and the totality of mistakes gives the true measure of a man. In the case of Calalus and the Tucson Artifacts it was demonstrated that your knowledge of the matter is limited to secondary sources and you lack an ability to engage in a dialogue regarding the artifacts on a fundamental level. But really that is not such a big deal. Few can. But your real weakness was to not be open for the possibility that something remarkable is sort of speak in your neck of the woods. You would have done a lot better to simply engage in a dialogue admit your limited knowledge and allow Starman to work with you. He was more than willing to do so.

Another trait of desperate people if when possible they will play the integrity card. Much the same way a person who is guilty of a crime will maintain their innocence to the end even when the truth is evident. Also desperate people will get others involved in their shameful behavior. Much as you have done with the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. Tell me Joe are they too so low that they sanction the publication of private e-mails? If those folks have a wit of integrity they will disown you and explain that they had nothing to do with this. If they don`t this simply validates one of the reasons we did not pursue things with them. You see Joe, your lack of integrity has now put into question the integrity of the Historical Society. If they sanction your behavior they are no better than you and in a sense worse. Worse because they claim to be honorable folks.

As we have made it clear we do not enjoy these kind of discussions and prefer to discuss issues on their merit but I see that is impossible. And as I mentioned before you are desperate and desperate people make mistakes. But what then was the mistake you made when you played the integity card? As in other things you simply did not do your homework.


I would refer anyone reading this to take the time to look at a short dialogue that was published on another web site, "The Lost Dutchman Mine". This dialogue appears in a section moderated by Joe Ribaudo and is entitled,"Jake`s ore". the dialogue occurred in October of 2005.

What is clear in this exchange is we were up front that after pursuing several possibilites in Arizona we decided that it was best to do something different. What we were oblique about is that when we said placement in the South we meant South Africa. If you notice what is telling Mr. Ribaudo recognizes his understanding and states, "I will mind my own business here".




Late,

I would suggest that you contact greyhair on this forum, or wait for the camp out and speak to him in person.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

There is no real reason to speak with Grayhair. We have decided to donate the written material to a University in the South. We are currently discussing placement of the items with with two institutions. It is what it is.

Bill,

The information I am referencing comes from Martin`s diary. We still are debating what to do.



Regards,


Late 49er
Late,

Sorry, I just assumed you would be trying to place the material in Arizona. I will mind my own business here.

Joe,

We wanted to place the material in Arizona. It is clear that it is not wanted. We approached several entities in the state.

Joe,

I need to apologize for my remarks. Irregardless of the circumstances they were inappropriate.

I am sure the folks down there do a wonderful job in promoting Arizona at its history.


Regards,


Late49er

Bill

Have to admit there is a certain amount of humor to all of this.

But have to say the people we have selected will do a quality job and at the end of the day that is all that is really importent.

My associates are both from Georgia and we have selected an institution close to them, and actually given their efforts it is appropriate they receive recognition in their own neck of the woods.

Perhaps this history is better stored near the folks who preserved and nutured the area. Personally I am very proud of what has been done.

Hopefully we will post some material here soon that will be of interest to you.


Regards,


You see Mr. Ribaudo we do not stoop as low as you and the historical society. We simply use public sources. It is just wrong what you did.

Mr. Croves,

As anyone can see you are emotional and I am sorry if my response to you was taken wrong. I think that truthfully Martin did try to engage you and yes you threw him under the train. But that is Ok. Simply do your research.


When all is said and done I would like to repeat what I said in a previous post. It is also what Jim Bark meant. And this goes for all of us.


What is important is that Oz exists, the settlement of the ancients exist and there is a library in South Africa that tells the whole story. I believe one day that someone who saw the tv program on the Artifacts will sense wonder. They will remember Mr. Bent`s work that was shown and begin a journey of truth that will take them to Oz. It will not be an easy trail. They will be exposed to science that will claim the relics are fake, this they will overcome. They will visit the Superstitions and much like the MCGee`s see and experience things that simply do not add up. They perhaps will see these posts and begin to look at the Tucson Artifacts and go high up on a Saddle on the east side of West Boulder Canyon, see the symbol of the ancients, and follow the trail all the way to Horse Mesa. From there they will probably find something we have missed and make their way into the underground chambers there and follow the cave system that will take them up into Coronado Mesa and into the library of Oz. There they will see the map room that was the creation point of the trail maps and they will notice a simple chair. They will walk over to that chair and on that chair will be the address of a museum in South Africa with one simple message, "May the Stars keep you safe" I would imagine they will keep all of this to themselves and make their way to South Africa and knock on the entrance. I suspect they will bring the note and simply say, "May the stars keep you safe". They will be allowed in and experence the awe of wonder of the most important historical site in the world.


I look forward to meeting such a man.


May the stars keep you safe.



B

Ben,

I am not connected to the museum in any way, except having good friends who are, or were, part of the organization.

Since you have been prevaricating since you first came on the the LDM Forum, and still are today, I don't feel there is anything to protect. You attack my integrity, and when I offer evidence to prove what I say, you offer nothing in return. That's because you have no evidence.......just a story. I have asked you to provide one (1) picture to support your story. You gave us a picture of a mine in Nevada, which is a tourist attraction, easily found on the Internet.
You removed that picture from the Forum, but I had made a copy of it, and found where you had copied it of the Net.

I have nothing to be desperate about. I'm not the one who is so desperate to prove that Oz exists. That would be you.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[starman 1]

The Way

Mr. Ribaudo,

So is discrediting the integrity of the Historical Society your idea of being a good friend? Like I said if the historical society does not disown you and what you did they are worse than you are.

Is publishing private e-mails your idea of being honest when you realize that such an act is a breach of the most basic decency. And furthermore you published these e-mails and slandered some fine folks knowing that you were being dis-honest. You see what you relied on is that we would not stoop to your level and I am proud we did not.

And what is sad is you continue to lie.

No Mr. Ribaudo I do not attack your integrity I simply reveal it for what it is. You are a man when caught red-handed could not even admit he is wrong and say so.

Late used to think a lot of you. He defended you with others and hoped that something positive would come of all of this. You rewarded him and others with a continual stream of lies and deceit.

B.

 

[cactusjumper]

Ben,

At this point there's no reason to continue a dialog with you. Delusional is the word of the day. Obviously, that would apply either to you, or to me. I will leave it to others to make that determination.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[starman 1]

Mr. Ribaudo,

It seems you are moving from being desperate to being delusional. All I would add is that you have taken the historical society along for the ride and that is inexcusable. Also for all the people you have trashed through the years without any consideration for basic decency or compassion I would say good riddence.

It seems at the end of the day compared to Kraig Roberts you are a moral pygmy and your friends at the historicial society are not far behind.

B.

 

[somehiker]

Anything new Hal ?
That might get the topic back on track.

Regards:SH.

 

[Hal Croves]

somehiker,

I will post the rest of my thoughts on Wisner in the morning. It is just one person in a sea of Wisners and I know the name may be a late edition to the legend, however I think that he is worth considering. Just too much coincidence to ignore. And then a little on Higham.


starman 1,

I honestly believe that you have missed a great opportunity here to win over a few TN members. That is the goal, correct? To inspire readers/potential believers with the story of Oz and the Tucson Artifacts? Can you see where your approach may actually be turning people away? Your scrap with cactusjumper is a great example of this. It seems unfortunate, disappointing, and at times distasteful. Cactusjumper needs no defending, especially from me, but I do want to say that my experience with the man has always been a positive one, even when he is "breek my balle". But your criticism of the staff at the historical society is unfair... to be kind. The staff that I have met have always been receptive, patient, and hospitable... and I consider one or two of them trustworthy friends.

I have one last question that I am hoping that you will answer with a response that is less "oblique" than what you have offered in previous posts. What is it that you and starman hope to achieve by posting on this thread? Can you be specific? Anyway, thank you for taking the time to respond with clarity.

My bes doen om jou en al die poortwagters!

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

Thank you for the kind words.

"What is it that you and starman hope to achieve by posting on this thread?"

That is a question that I have been asking Ben for a number of years now. I hope you have better luck than I did, with some kind of coherent answer.

Take care,

Joe

 

[desertmoons]

I went back and reread the first PM that you sent to me a few years ago. It was about my reading of the stone maps. Do you remember? It seemed to me that you believed that I was correct. If that is still the case, the stone maps have nothing to do with your story. Why? Because for me, they are without question a modern creation. I have the artists name, the place where I believe they were made, and what I believe to be the reason for carving them. We shall see.

Mr Croves,

You all have spent many years on this subject and generated a lot of posts! Might I ask, have you laid out your theory on why they were made in one of the threads here? If so I will look for it. If not, best of luck coming to a conclusion one way or another. The journey is almost always worth it. Thank you.

 

[Ellie Baba]

Ben, I just happened to be online when I saw your last post and was going to reply and then it suddenly vanished! You really do get butt-hurt way to easy. I have read these exchanges between you and Cactusjumper and I sit amazed while ingesting your arrogance and BS. What can you tell me about the Ionians and their role in coming to Arizona? A question that I hope you can answer that will assure me that you know what you are talking about. Knowledge, wisdom and truth must go hand in hand; one without the other two is meaningless when presenting new material to the uninitiated. Cactusjumper's request for some type of documentation is reasonable in my honest opinion. If your intention is to educate us then please do so. Otherwise...go in peace and do what you do best, whatever that may be. You should respect this thread and its users. Start a new thread and those of us who are interested will exchange information, if it is designed to lead us to a new level of understanding. Hal has work to present to those of us who are interested in his research. Sorry for the format presented here as I have no control over this response as my keyboard commands are useless (anyone know how to fix this issue?). Have a great day, Ellie B

 

[ELBAYO]

Victor,
Your new area of interest did not pan out......If there ever was a load in that area every trace of it is no longer to be found...However on the north side small amounts filled the pan.....Remember your area that you had assayed.....The area that was the farthest away from Tortilla Flatt was a hit....I was hoping you would make it to town before it gets to hot for you......


Double-Jack......