The Book Club

[Hal Croves]

Victor,
Your new area of interest did not pan out......If there ever was a load in that area every trace of it is no longer to be found...However on the north side small amounts filled the pan.....Remember your area that you had assayed.....The area that was the farthest away from Tortilla Flatt was a hit....I was hoping you would make it to town before it gets to hot for you......


Double-Jack......

I would love nothing more than to hop a flight out there and to show you something that might bring smiles to both of us. If it is not me, I am happy that it is you brother. Unfortunately, I am still trying to recoup from last months broken nose which has left me feeling "fuzzy". But by the end of March or beginning of April I will be there... come hell or high water. I guess as we get older it takes longer to heal. I have to say that I miss Arizona and have at times thought about picking up and relocating there for a few months. I just don't know how to make that happen.

Also, I am sending you a little something that I hope you will put to good use. Look for it! Be safe!

 

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How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[Hal Croves]

desertmoons,
I took several missteps when I began posting about the stone maps. The first was in accepting the 1847 inscription as the date of creation. Next, I believed that men/women were capable of accomplishing things greater than the historical record supported. Most of my education in "reasoning" came from the many seasoned members here on TN and I am grateful for their persistence. I deleted my earlier threads not out of spite or embarrassment, but because I saw the fundamental flaw in what it was that I was proposing and quite honestly I did not want anyone to waste their time following dead ends. My dead ends anyway. When I am done with my research and documenting all the sites, I will make it available through the SMM (if they will have me). The focus of anything I produce will be on the life of the person who created the stones and what I believe to be his reasons for leaving them behind. I have spent a considerable amount of time looking at his life's accomplishments and as you will eventually see, he left behind much more than the stones. His descendants are as remarkable as he was. And if it turns out that I got it wrong (again), well you are correct. It has always been about the journey.

 

[Hal Croves]

Jacob S. Wisner was born in Tyrone, Schuyler County, NY in 1830 to Henry (b.1785) & Jane (b. 1792) Wisner. Henry & Jane were married in Newtown, Pennsylvainia on August 2nd, 1811.

Henry Wisner (Jacob's father) volunteered at Seneca County, New York on August 28th, 1814 in the War of 1812. He served with Captain Sam McMath's Company of the NY Militia, in Colonel McMann's regiment. He was discharged at Batavia, NY on November 8th, 1814 and after received warrants for 40 & 120 acres of government land. Henry died in Tyrone on February 1st, 1871.

Jane Wisner (Jacob's mother) was the daughter of Lorrain Thorne (b.1747) of New Jersey, and Jane Paxton (b. 1755) of Berwick,VA. The Thornes were married in Bucks County, PA in 1770. Newtown, PA is also located in Bucks County. Lorrain and Jane raised eleven children: Mary (b. 1778), William (b.1779), Joseph (b.1781), Sarah (b.1785), Elizabeth (b. 1786), Letita (b. 1789), Jane (b. 1792), James Thomas (b.1794), Lorain (b.1795), Elizabeth (b. 1800), and Isaac (b. 1803).

Jane (widow) was living with her nephew G.H. James of Ohio (age 14) in NY, in 1875, and then with her daughter Elizabeth (Yosts) in 1880, when and where she passed.

In 1850, the Wisners (Henry & Jane) are found living in Orange, Steuben County, NY with their five children, Rosetta (b.1826), Henry (b.1820), Jacob (b.1830), William (b.1832), and Elizabeth (b.1836).

Some time after 1850, Jacob left home and reappears eleven years later as a resident of Exeter, Scott County, Illinois. There, in Exeter, Jacob enlisted on August 16th, 1861 as a private in Company B, 27th Illinois infantry. So, as a note, Jacob's military experience began in Illinois, in 61.

Wisner Jacob
Rank: Private
Company: B 27th Il US INF
Residence: Exeter, Scott Co, IL
Age: 31
Height: 5'6"
Hair: Brown
Eyes: Blue
Complexion: Sandy
Occupation: Carpenter.
Native: Tyrone, York (NY)
Joined: August 12, 1861
Mustered In: August 16th, 1861 Springfield, Il

more...

The 27th regiment was organized at Camp Butler, Illinois on August 10, 1861 and ordered to Springfield, Illinois on the 25th of August 1861. Company B was primarily composed of men from Scott County, Illinois, (Exeter is located in Scott County). Wisner must have arrived in Exeter sometime after 1860, but before August 1861, as he is not found in the 1860 Scott County, IL census.

The 27th departed Springfield on the 1st of September for Cairo, Illinois, their home base until March of 1862. From Cairo the 27th was sent as an expedition force to Belmont, MO where they participate in the Battle of Belmont on November 6-7th, 1861. In January of 1862, the 27th was sent to Kentucky where they became involved in the occupation of Columbus on March 3rd. Wisner either returned to Cairo after the 21st of January, or never actually joined the regiment in Kentucky as he mustered out at Cairo on February 14th, 1862.

On June 6th, 1862, Wisner enlisted again as a private with the 54th, Illinois Infantry, Company F for a three year term. The 54th was organized at Camp Dubois, Anna, Illinois as part of the Kentucky Brigade. Wisner mustered into service the following year, on May 29th, 1863 at Jackson, TN. From there, he moved with the 54th to Vicksburg, Mississippi (May 30th) and was involved in the siege of Vicksburg from June 2nd until July 14th, 1863.

On July 24th, the 54th moved again to Helena Arkansas then onto Little Rock as part of the Steele expedition where they remained from August 1st, 1863 until March of 1864. The 54th was involved in Bayou Fourche and the capture of Little Rock (September 10th, 1863). In March of 1864 the veterans of the 54th were furloughed and in some roll became involved in the Charleston, IL riots (March 28th). The 54th's veterans returned to Little Rock on April 12, 1864 and from there, were set to Brownsville (May 18th) in pursuit of Shelby (May 19th-31st).

more...

(please remember that this is simply a look at the life of one carpenter named Jacob Wisner)

 

[wrmickel1]

Sorry for the format presented here as I have no control over this response as my keyboard commands are useless (anyone know how to fix this issue?). Have a great day, Ellie B[/QUOTE]

Yes, you wave your hands over the key board and say (Ellie Baba Kazam)

HA HA HA

Wrmickel1

 

[cactusjumper]

desertmoons,
I took several missteps when I began posting about the stone maps. The first was in accepting the 1847 inscription as the date of creation. Next, I believed that men/women were capable of accomplishing things greater than the historical record supported. Most of my education in "reasoning" came from the many seasoned members here on TN and I am grateful for their persistence. I deleted my earlier threads not out of spite or embarrassment, but because I saw the fundamental flaw in what it was that I was proposing and quite honestly I did not want anyone to waste their time following dead ends. My dead ends anyway. When I am done with my research and documenting all the sites, I will make it available through the SMM (if they will have me). The focus of anything I produce will be on the life of the person who created the stones and what I believe to be his reasons for leaving them behind. I have spent a considerable amount of time looking at his life's accomplishments and as you will eventually see, he left behind much more than the stones. His descendants are as remarkable as he was. And if it turns out that I got it wrong (again), well you are correct. It has always been about the journey.

Hal,

IMHO, It's not a good idea to accept any one persons conclusions or theories as fact. I have always said that I question everyone's "facts", including my own. Along those lines, I read all I can get on any subject I am interested in. It's one of the reasons I started the Rendezvous. There is no better place to be exposed to such a wide variety of LDM ideas and theories.

There was a time when I took everything my friend, Kraig, wrote or said as Gospel. Questioning some of his facts ended that friendship. Looking back I doubt it was ever really a friendship, at least on his part.

Always keep in mind that there are deep and dark currents running just below the Dutch Hunting community. You should take your time moving through those currents.

While we may not always agree with each other, I hope we will always be able to respectfully disagree. It been a method that has kept me counted as a good friend with many LDM fans. Where I have failed to do that, I have come out the looser.

Take care, and good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

IMHO, It's not a good idea to accept any one persons conclusions or theories as fact. I have always said that I question everyone's "facts", including my own. Along those lines, I read all I can get on any subject I am interested in. It's one of the reasons I started the Rendezvous. There is no better place to be exposed to such a wide variety of LDM ideas and theories.

There was a time when I took everything my friend, Kraig, wrote or said as Gospel. Questioning some of his facts ended that friendship. Looking back I doubt it was ever really a friendship, at least on his part.

Always keep in mind that there are deep and dark currents running just below the Dutch Hunting community. You should take your time moving through those currents.

While we may not always agree with each other, I hope we will always be able to respectfully disagree. It been a method that has kept me counted as a good friend with many LDM fans. Where I have failed to do that, I have come out the looser.

Take care, and good luck,

Joe

Honestly, I have come out the looser in most of my relationships. There just seems to be more takers than givers in this world, and I accept that. Which is why I treasure the people that I consider to be true friends. Anyone who knows me well enough knows which card I have drawn.

View attachment 760049

A recent likeness of Hal Croves.
​

 

[Springfield]

...Anyone who knows me well enough knows which card I have drawn.

View attachment 760049

A recent likeness of Hal Croves.
​

You're no fool. Perhaps you should choose another card.

 

[Garry]

Hal,

While I don’t necessarily condemn nor support Blair’s various hypotheses, I don’t want to go there at this time. I would like to keep it simple and focus on the things that are at least grounded in period sources.

You wrote: “I now have little doubt that Waltz, the LA Waltz, is the Waltz of the “Dutch Jacob” legend. Dr. Blair and his publisher did an amazing job pulling it all together.”

What you have established is that there was a man who went by the name of Jacob Waltz that came to America from Wurttemberg. By connecting the dots, you can trace him in America to his death in 1891 in Arizona.

What we have not done is attach this Jacob Waltz to the LDM legend. There are different paths for people to reach this point but I will follow the one that at least has some documentation. From the newspaper article recording Jacob Waltz’s death we can establish a relationship between Jacob and Julia Thomas. We can also document a relationship between Julia and Rhinehart Petrasch. (Rhinehart loaned Julia money with her restaurant equipment as collateral in the early 1890s timeframe - Document) There are also additional sources that add flesh to this relationship. Of course we know that Herman was Rhinehart’s brother and both were in Arizona for many years until their deaths.

We move ahead to Herman’s 1940 letter in which he states that the real name of Jacob Waltz was actually Jacob Waltzer. It seems to me that it is clear that Herman is talking about the Jacob Waltz who died in Phoenix in 1891 and Herman is trying to insert the fact that Jacob Waltz was originally christened Jacob Walzer and that he underwent a name change at some point, possibly after coming to America.

While I personally give little credence to this story we can still ask how it impacts the LDM story. For me it might provide a path to try to identify Jacob Waltz in Germany but little else. Why would this name be a game changer or even important from a treasure hunter’s perspective?

For me this is a logical path not based on tall tales and fantasies. I will gladly retire from the rest of this thread.

Your question about how many years Waltz had been in America. There are two copies of the declaration of intention to become a citizen. The original that Wink Blair found in Adams County, Mississippi and the copy the clerk created in 1861 and was filed with Waltz’s Naturalization papers in Los Angeles. Take a look at the original image in Blair’s book and note the Nov 1848 term of court. The “N” in November is a bit strange but it looks exactly like the “N” in Nine denoting how long Waltz had been in America. I believe the copy with the Naturalization (1861) also reinforces the nine year entry.

Thanks again for pointing out the Emil Thomas city directory entries. Hopefully you will be able to make additional contributions in the future.

Garry

 

[Hal Croves]

Garry,
Yes, your summary is dead on. Thank you for that. It seems that there are no absolutes with this legend and at this point, I still don’t know what to make of Waltz and his find in the Superstitions.

I am looking into Barnard’s life as you suggested, but there seems to be some confusion there. I will keep digging. Thanks again Garry!

 

[peralta]

desertmoons,
I took several missteps when I began posting about the stone maps. The first was in accepting the 1847 inscription as the date of creation. Next, I believed that men/women were capable of accomplishing things greater than the historical record supported. Most of my education in "reasoning" came from the many seasoned members here on TN and I am grateful for their persistence. I deleted my earlier threads not out of spite or embarrassment, but because I saw the fundamental flaw in what it was that I was proposing and quite honestly I did not want anyone to waste their time following dead ends. My dead ends anyway. When I am done with my research and documenting all the sites, I will make it available through the SMM (if they will have me). The focus of anything I produce will be on the life of the person who created the stones and what I believe to be his reasons for leaving them behind. I have spent a considerable amount of time looking at his life's accomplishments and as you will eventually see, he left behind much more than the stones. His descendants are as remarkable as he was. And if it turns out that I got it wrong (again), well you are correct. It has always been about the journey.

Hal, how are you?there is more to the 1847 and its very interesting.hopefully were still friends.
TAKE CARE
TOM

 

[starman 1]

The Way

Hello Mr. Croves:

It seems you are curious as to why we posted on this site and what we achieved by posting. Normally I would not answer such a question because to do so is in my opinion impolite. Also it makes the strategy inoperative going forward but since you ask why not. The strategy has achieved more than we ever hoped and going forward we need to consider other methodologies that are a bit quieter. While it is always entertaining to watch Joe vapor lock in and of itself that is little reason for all of this. Although Klondike did win $10,000 from Martin as Joe did his thing.

But the real reason? First you have to understand you are not the audience we are interested in. Granted we try to provide valid information but ultimately we could care less what you folks think because the truth has nothing to do with the outcome of these conversations. The truth is out there in the Superstition Mountains, Circlestone, Oz, the Canyon of the Souls, Eldorado Canyon, Rhoda, Southern Utah, the Grand Canyon, the real Jacob Walzer, this website is at best only a reflection of the truth and a poor one at that. You will not find the truth behind a keyboard.

Our real audience is the folks who read various websites and generally have no interest in posting. These people see that our posts are most always well thought out, generally to the point and plausible. Rarely do people on these websites respond to us in a like manner, and in cases like Joe and Mr. Booboo their shrilling is quite helpful. You see Mr. Croves people can reason and use their own sense of decency and fair play. People in general trust us with their own discoveries and can see the truth we talk about because their discoveries verify the existence of the people. This has helped us meet a number of wonderful folks and up scoop up our people’s heritage.

Let me show you how this works. We were aware months ago that the forensic geologist associated with the TV production would pronounce the artifacts real. Klondike is a World class Geologist and understands the testing that would be done and was convinced what the results would be. Knowing then that there would be a number of viewers that would see this show and when it would broadcast we began posting on various websites that might have a readership somewhat familiar with the artifacts. Our primary goal was to make sure all of our information was out there before the TV show appeared. If you take the time to look at the time frame associated with Starman`s posts it is quite clear that the majority of the information was on this site before the show date. One of the websites we posted on was Archaelogical.org. Have to say Martin did a fine job there. Just look under the blog associated with the artifacts.

Next we simply waited to see what fell out of the trees. It was a bountiful harvest. Our most important find was the result of a really fine lady lets call Missy who lives near Cottonwood, Arizona. Missy’s grandparents had lived near Tucson and her grandfather had like Manier found a cross about 5 years before Manier`s discovery. Her Grandfather put the cross in his barn, and much later took it to the University to be examined. By that time the University was in a denial mode and simply told him it was a hoax. Her grandfather put the artifact back in his barn and it set there for years. Once her grandparents passed away, Missy took the cross home and kept in her garage behind a lawn mower for many, many years. Well Missy saw the television special and visited this website. She contacted us and the rest is history. The artifact was gladly accepted and Missy was provided a handsome financial reward. Klondike and Dog returned the artifact to a scientific facility here and upon examination we found it was the one artifact we all believed had to be out there but we could never find. The artifact had a map showing the trail from the Salt River to Rhoda. Needless to say that artifact will be in the museum I suspect in about 5 hours.

As far as the Superstition Mountain Historical Society goes let me see if I can understand your position. You believe it is ok for Joe to use private communication sent by an official of the Society to Late49er asking Late to consider making a donation to the Society. Joe uses this communication in an attempt to assassinate Late`s character full well knowing his effort is based on a lie. So as an inquiring mind are you interested in how Joe obtained the e-mail he published? Did an official current or past of the Society give it to Joe? No my comments are really quite subdued giving the circumstances.

Anyway this has been a wondrous harvest and when I visit Late and Eldorado in the Spring I will share with them. Late and his brother Eldorado passed away a few years ago and their ashes were dispersed in a holy area in the Rogers Canyon area. I also need to attend to a rose garden there that has roots that go back to a gatekeeper of the previous century. Looking forward to a night in the Superstitions, a wondrous starlight sky, and sharing stories with Late`s son Klondike.

I have enjoyed your posts and we have no real need to be a part of this going forward. Also I have enjoyed posting for my friends for many years, and meeting some really wonderful folks. Having said this all I really want to do now is care for things important to me and have some happiness with the time I have left on this earth. And who knows maybe meet a fine person in October that can write a history of all of this. I know Michelle would like that.

Good luck to you in your efforts.


B.
Your Message

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Mr. Croves:

It seems you are curious as to why we posted on this site and what we achieved by posting. Normally I would not answer such a question because to do so is in my opinion impolite. Also it makes the strategy inoperative going forward but since you ask why not. The strategy has achieved more than we ever hoped and going forward we need to consider other methodologies that are a bit quieter. While it is always entertaining to watch Joe vapor lock in and of itself that is little reason for all of this. Although Klondike did win $10,000 from Martin as Joe did his thing.

But the real reason? First you have to understand you are not the audience we are interested in. Granted we try to provide valid information but ultimately we could care less what you folks think because the truth has nothing to do with the outcome of these conversations. The truth is out there in the Superstition Mountains, Circlestone, Oz, the Canyon of the Souls, Eldorado Canyon, Rhoda, Southern Utah, the Grand Canyon, the real Jacob Walzer, this website is at best only a reflection of the truth and a poor one at that. You will not find the truth behind a keyboard.

Our real audience is the folks who read various websites and generally have no interest in posting. These people see that our posts are most always well thought out, generally to the point and plausible. Rarely do people on these websites respond to us in a like manner, and in cases like Joe and Mr. Booboo their shrilling is quite helpful. You see Mr. Croves people can reason and use their own sense of decency and fair play. People in general trust us with their own discoveries and can see the truth we talk about because their discoveries verify the existence of the people. This has helped us meet a number of wonderful folks and up scoop up our people’s heritage.

Let me show you how this works. We were aware months ago that the forensic geologist associated with the TV production would pronounce the artifacts real. Klondike is a World class Geologist and understands the testing that would be done and was convinced what the results would be. Knowing then that there would be a number of viewers that would see this show and when it would broadcast we began posting on various websites that might have a readership somewhat familiar with the artifacts. Our primary goal was to make sure all of our information was out there before the TV show appeared. If you take the time to look at the time frame associated with Starman`s posts it is quite clear that the majority of the information was on this site before the show date. One of the websites we posted on was Archaelogical.org. Have to say Martin did a fine job there. Just look under the blog associated with the artifacts.

Next we simply waited to see what fell out of the trees. It was a bountiful harvest. Our most important find was the result of a really fine lady lets call Missy who lives near Cottonwood, Arizona. Missy’s grandparents had lived near Tucson and her grandfather had like Manier found a cross about 5 years before Manier`s discovery. Her Grandfather put the cross in his barn, and much later took it to the University to be examined. By that time the University was in a denial mode and simply told him it was a hoax. Her grandfather put the artifact back in his barn and it set there for years. Once her grandparents passed away, Missy took the cross home and kept in her garage behind a lawn mower for many, many years. Well Missy saw the television special and visited this website. She contacted us and the rest is history. The artifact was gladly accepted and Missy was provided a handsome financial reward. Klondike and Dog returned the artifact to a scientific facility here and upon examination we found it was the one artifact we all believed had to be out there but we could never find. The artifact had a map showing the trail from the Salt River to Rhoda. Needless to say that artifact will be in the museum I suspect in about 5 hours.

As far as the Superstition Mountain Historical Society goes let me see if I can understand your position. You believe it is ok for Joe to use private communication sent by an official of the Society to Late49er asking Late to consider making a donation to the Society. Joe uses this communication in an attempt to assassinate Late`s character full well knowing his effort is based on a lie. So as an inquiring mind are you interested in how Joe obtained the e-mail he published? Did an official current or past of the Society give it to Joe? No my comments are really quite subdued giving the circumstances.

Anyway this has been a wondrous harvest and when I visit Late and Eldorado in the Spring I will share with them. Late and his brother Eldorado passed away a few years ago and their ashes were dispersed in a holy area in the Rogers Canyon area. I also need to attend to a rose garden there that has roots that go back to a gatekeeper of the previous century. Looking forward to a night in the Superstitions, a wondrous starlight sky, and sharing stories with Late`s son Klondike.

I have enjoyed your posts and we have no real need to be a part of this going forward. Also I have enjoyed posting for my friends for many years, and meeting some really wonderful folks. Having said this all I really want to do now is care for things important to me and have some happiness with the time I have left on this earth. And who knows maybe meet a fine person in October that can write a history of all of this. I know Michelle would like that.

Good luck to you in your efforts.


B.
Your Message

No doubt that Hal has had all of his questions answered now.

Joe Riaudo

 

[somehiker]

While Ben struggles to catch up.

1st reference to the show here...http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/general-discussion/337279-desert-crosser-found-az.html
2nd and 3rd references here:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...d-horse-head-priest-rock-superstitions-2.html
4th here...Mar.10 :
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/325720-book-club-12.html

Ben's first mention of the show anywhere, came on on Mar 11...one day later:

"On another subject I was very happy to see the tv special. To see Mr. Bent`s grandson smile was priceless and to see him participate in the beginning of the process dealing with the truth about the artifacts was very important to us. While this is only the beginning folks can begin to take the artifacts a bit more seriously."

Further:
https://www.azpm.org/p/top-news/2013/3/15/23177-tucson-artifacts-suggest-tucson-roman-colony/

Dr.David Killick. Departments of Anthropology and Materials Science and Engineering, University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona is a former resident of Rhodesia and an expert in Archaeometallurgy/African Metalurgy.


"David Killick wrote on Mar 17, 2013 8:54 a.m.:

A couple of years ago Dr. Ken Domanik in the Lunar and Planetary Sciences Laboratory did chemical analysis (by electron microprobe) of several slivers cut from these artifacts, and passed the analyses on to me for comment. All of them are led with a few percent antimony. The proportions correspond well to the composition of the lead plates in lead-acid automobile batteries in the 1920's. Antimony was added to the lead to prevent "creep' - the tendency of pure lead to deform under its own weight. Since most lead deposits do not contain significant amounts of antimony minerals, this was clearly a deliberate addition. My conclusion is that the lead in these artifacts came from recycled automobile batteries. "

These were the results of those tests:

Microprobe analyses in wt% by Tom Fenn

Item 1: 94.6% Pb, 4.7% Sb
Item 2: 93.9% Pb, 5.5% Sb
Item 3: 91.6% Pb, 7.6% Sb, 0.6% Ag, 0.3% Sn, 0.2% Cu
Item 4: 93.9% Pb, 5.5% Sb
Item 5: 90.0% Pb, 9.5% Sb, 1.5% Sn
Item 6: 91.8% Pb, 7.1% Sb, 1.2% Sn

Pb--Lead Sb--antimony Ag--gold Sn--tin Cu--copper

Ben's post on Archaeologica.org:
Archaeologica.org ? View topic - Solved: The Roman Jews of Tucson

" Re: Solved: The Roman Jews of Tucson

Postby starman » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:54 pm
Hello,

Years ago my father visited the Superstition Mountains with an archeologist friend from Harvard University. She was quite a lady. Dad was impressed with her work in Mexico. I tagged along hoping this would be a rather eventful trip. I was not disappointed.

We entered the range from Hierogllyphic Canyon, crossed Supersition Mountain and made our way to the saddle high above West Boulder Canyon. We camped there for the night. To the east was a wonderous view of Weaver`s Needle.

That night under an incredible sky my father shared with his friend the history of our people, the location of sites we would be visiting over the next few days and the history of the last days of Calalus that had been handed down from generation to generation. I will never forget his discussion of the creation of the Tucson Artifacts. They were made in the last days of the people in a small canyon, (Eldorado Canyon, Nevada) on the Colorado River. The artifacts were forged as a map home that one day might lead the descendents of Calalus back to their most holy site in the Superstitions. The relics were later dumped in a marshy area of Arizona to make room for living survivors of the holocast that befell the people. That is another history for another day.

Over the next several days we visited a number of sites and finally made our way to Horse Mesa on the Salt River. From there we entered several holy places and for days dad`s friend not only had the opportunity to study the people`s history but to also aquaint herself with the history of a more ancient people that were the reason the settlers of Calalus came to America to begin with.

I think dad was very interested in her thoughts on what she had seen and for many years she joined us and others to visit the range to protect and care for the most important historical site in the world. I too became her friend and when she passed away felt a loss that has never really been filled.

The trail we followed is the trail that is engraved on the Tucson Artifacts. The name of the holy site in the Superstitions is mentioned, many times on the artifacts but has never been recognized for what it is.

Mr. Hardaker,

I enjoyed reading your work, "The First American", not being an archaelogist most of it went over my head but I really found it fun. In terms of the Tucson Artifacts there are a number of symbols on them that has confused folks for years. That is intentional. Also there are symbols that go back to a root culture that is far older than well 10,000 years. I would keep in mind that the artifacts in Tucson both reveal and conceal. That is those artifacts contain a great deal of truth but could very well be a forgery. A very good one I might add. If they are that might suggest the real artifacts are safe with the people.

My purpose in posting was merely to open a gate. That has been accomplished.

May the Stars keep you safe.

Starman

starman

Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:17 pm"

All this took less than 30 minutes of my time.

Regards:SH.

 

[Ellie Baba]

Starman 1,

You wrote: "Klondike is a World class Geologist and understands the testing that would be done and was convinced what the results would be."

I would normally agree with you accept for the fact that Mr. Wolter did not follow the accepted procedures of collecting and analyzing the samples as depicted on the show. Float rock samples should never be collected as they have been well weathered, leached by the sun and water. These samples do not represent the actual location of where the artifacts were taken from. The samples should have been taken a few feet in depth from the actual location near to where the artifacts were removed. The samples should have also been tested by another independent lab to verify Mr. Wolters results.

The "test of the prudent man" does not only apply to precious metals. The test of the prudent man keeps everyone honest when dealing with an unknown commodity of wealth. After wasting $10,000 on a petty bet (IMHO) that money could have been used to verify the samples yourself instead of trusting someone you do not even know... or do you?

I have an awesome gold mine that would make us all millionaires; could I interest you in a really sound investment? First of all you would bring in a group of geologists and a number of assayers to prove out the value of the mining claims that I have available for such an investment. Whether you invest or not will be based upon those results.

I hope that you would not base your judgment of the artifacts validity based on one man's interpretation. The show is somewhat entertaining especially to those who have never been exposed to the true science of geological testing procedures. Now the question pertaining to the term of A.D. found on the artifacts? “What a maroon”, as Bugs Bunny has been known to say!

Somehiker is on the same page as he has posted some very damaging results defining the composition of the artifacts themselves. Science (knowledge) in motion with proven results (wisdom) and the truth can be presented.

It will take some real science based evidence to convince me that the artifacts are the real thing.

What is truly your game gatekeeper? Will you next offer Dorothy's ruby slippers as evidence? Just click the heels together three times and repeat this phrase: I believe in OZ, I believe in OZ.

I would only hope that we could get together and take a walk in the Soups someday soon... for seeing is believing. Long live the Ionians!

By the way... wrmdickel 1, I also resolved my problem with the word/keypad issue and I never had to use any magic phrase. Ha, Ha, Ha!

I am on a role tonight and I have summoned the Egyptian elephants to enlighten your dreams and lead you to hidden riches.

Starman1, Any elephants found near the land of Oz?

From the keyboard of the meek and humble Ellie Baba

 

[Hal Croves]

starman 1,
Thank you for taking the time to reply.

peralta,
Always my friend. Keep working to tell your story!

cactusjumper, somehiker,
I am looking for a book by Higham titled, Life of Biron (spelling) Darrell Duppa. Have either of you seen this work? Any help in locating a copy would be appreciated. I am not even sure that it was ever actually written much less published. Thank you for the help.

somehiker
This an amazing quote, but not for the obvious reason. Bookmark it for another day. Thank you!

"David Killick wrote on Mar 17, 2013 8:54 a.m.:

A couple of years ago Dr. Ken Domanik in the Lunar and Planetary Sciences Laboratory did chemical analysis (by electron microprobe) of several slivers cut from these artifacts, and passed the analyses on to me for comment. All of them are led with a few percent antimony. The proportions correspond well to the composition of the lead plates in lead-acid automobile batteries in the 1920's. Antimony was added to the lead to prevent "creep' - the tendency of pure lead to deform under its own weight. Since most lead deposits do not contain significant amounts of antimony minerals, this was clearly a deliberate addition. My conclusion is that the lead in these artifacts came from recycled automobile batteries. "

 

[somehiker]

Hal:

A quickie search of Darrel Dupa/lost dutchman mine yeilded some results, this being one:
http://azquesters.org/pdf/Arizona%20Questers%20history.pdf"]http://azquesters.org/pdf/Arizona%20Questers%20history.pdf

Might be something there that can help...

 

[Springfield]

We can't say the Romans alloyed Arizona lead with antimony, but we can't say they didn't either, because if they were in Arizona, the raw materials were available and the Romans had the knowledge to do it.

Lead typically occurs as lead sulfide (galena), often along with other sulfide ores, including sulfides of copper, zinc, silver and antimony (stibnite). A 'lead mine' per se is normally a massive galena deposit. Why the 'Yuma mine' was associated with the Silverbell Artifacts is not real clear, but nonetheless it would be interesting to know about its ore. A history of the mine, including descriptions of its original deposits and assays would be valuable. Of course, Pre Columbian data is missing.

It would also be interesting to know the history of lead recovery from other Arizona-vicinity mines. There were many in Yavapai County. The same kind of data collected from the 'Yuma mine' needs to be evaluated. Again, documentation of any Pre Columbian activities would not be available.

Of particular further interest, Arizona also has had a number of productive stibnite mines, most in Yavapai County. A description of their original deposits would also be interesting. We know minable quantities of both lead and antimony were exploited in Yavapai County in modern times. Obviously, these Arizona minerals existed in Pre Columbian times too, but we don't know if they were mined.

 

[starman 1]

The Way

Somehiker,

In your zeal to score points you seemed to have missed the point regarding the postings. The postings occurred before the tv program was aired. The point that the tv show was mentioned after the program aired is not relevent to the discussion. This I believe you understand.

You should take a moment to read Mr. Killick`s point more carefully. Mr. Killick`s point is that the metal composition of the artifacts is similar to that of automobile batteries in the 1920`s. From here he leaps to the conclusion that therefore the artifacts came from recycled automobile batteries. His conclusion is based on nothing other than a notion of similarity and ignores that a very reasonable reason for the addition of antimony to the lead was to give it strength and durability. A very important quality to the creators. Also it is obvious that Mr. Killick is ignorant of the dig. As Mr. Hardacker notes in regards to one of the artifacts:

"An artifact found under a 50-year old Mesquite tree provides a maximum date of ca. 1874. Also, the artifacts were scattered over a 2500-foot area on an eroding terrace, and then covered up all together, buried between three to six feet below the modern surface. There was absolutely no evidence of pits dug to plant the pieces under the surface; this is verified in the photographs and by multiple professional accounts during the discoveries, including comments by Dr. Neil Judd who personally excavated two of the pieces; Judd was a nephew of UAz’s Dr. Byron Cummings, and a Smithsonian archaeologist working at Chaco Canyon. To do all that earthmoving, an army begins to make sense".

So the specifics of the dig directly contradict the argument of similarity, or were they making 1920 car batteries in 1874? Obviously we know the artifacts are far older but to prove a point 1874 is just fine.

To be fair to Mr. Hardacker it must be noted that while he would disagree with Mr. Killick his conclusion on the artifacts is different than ours.

Somehiker if you truly are interested in the artifacts do not let other people think for you and do the hard work of reading Mr. Bent`s work, familiarizing yourself with the specifics of the dig and approach this with an open mind. Anyone can quote sources as Mr. Ribaudo has proven, but an understanding of the dig would lead you to the obvious position that Mr. Killick`s conclusions were nonsense.

Mr. Baba,

We only said that based on the type of testing done we believed the artifacts would be validated. This does not mean that the testing was complete it was not. We were very careful with our language because klondike knows far more about those artifacts than the forensic geologist who did the tests. The artifacts are quite real, was this proven in the TV program absolutely not, but that is not the point is it. As far as proving to you the artifacts are real I could care less what you believe. If you have a real interest in the artifacts take the time to read Mr. Bent`s work if not why not just let it go.

Mr. Baba you would add more credibility to your arguments by simply taking the time to educate yourself regarding the artifacts instead of resorting to colorful metaphors that only dis-credit your efforts. You might even reach the point of being able to answer the question,"What was the circumstances surrounding the discovery of 2 of the artifacts that disprove Mr. Killick`s contention? On the other hand that would require some work wouldn`t it.

Mr. Ribaudo,

It is good to see you commenting in a manner reflecting your understanding of the matter at hand.


Gentlemen,

While this is all entertaining you all need to do a lot of research before engaging in this type of dialogue. Right now you are simply working off a data base that is insufficient to have an intelligent conversation and really I am not interested in this continual type of nonsense. My post was simply aimed at answering Mr. Croves guestion of why. I believe out of respect for Mr. Groves everyone should simply stand down and let the man finish his efforts. I guarantee each of you understanding the mystery is far more rewarding than these endless pissing matches. After all what was important to us was accomplish on the other hand you have accomplished nothing.


B.

 

[Hal Croves]

starman 1,

A modern (early 1900's) date of creation on objects such as the Tucson Artifacts and the Stone Map Cipher would not necessarily indicate a hoax. Any scientific analysis (in my untrained opinion) would only offer a possible date and means of creation. Beyond that, it is the objects message that needs to be scrutinized. What is it that the author is telling us and why is that information important? I think that the story that you are struggling to tell is a fantastic one and worthy of telling, but if it is your goal to be published, and I believe that you wrote that it was, here you will need to rethink your approach. I have had quite a few manuscripts pass through my hands and very few ever made it to print. If one is luck enough to land a follow-up meeting with any creditable publisher, you, the author will need to be prepared to answer some very direct questions. Here is where the publisher will either back you or drop you like a sack of dirt. Even if a story is compelling, and unique, no publisher will endorse someone who is not marketable (trustworthy if you like). It is simply too risky an investment and the pressure to turn profit too great to back someone who falls apart under questioning or proves to be "sensitive". Why am I taking the time to tell you this? Well, I want everyone to realize their dreams and goals, and as I said, your story is worthy of telling. So, when your ideas are challenged, avoid the impulse to defend yourself with criticism of your questioners. Simply respond with what you believe to be fact and avoid singling out any one person for reprisal. While I am no expert on all things "Dutchman" related, I will tell you that I have a small advantage when it comes to the Stone Map Cipher. A very small advantage. Have another look at somehiker's last post. In my humble opinion, it is one of the most insightful that can be found on this thread. Even if he and I are married in disagreement.

 

[markmar]

starman 1

In the case of Calalus , Rhoda means " wheel " or " circlestone " , and not Rose . In the most cases Rhodes means Rose .
One of the artifacts shows the location of Rhoda , like a map . Look what I mean :



Of course the ground have changed a little with the pass of the years and the human intervention ..

Marius