The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Reavis got his settlement from Barney in 1873. He was going after the "notorious" big guys who had legal claims on file. In 1873 the LDM was not well known, if known at all. Since Waltz never made a legal claim on his mine, it's hard to imagine he gave much thought to Reavis going after it.

I didn't spend much time on this angle when I first researched the Reavis fraud and can't find a good reason to do so now. Not much meat on dem bones.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Travis,

I forgot to mention that - there has been enough tectonic activity in Arizona and surrounding areas, that the Colorado River has changed directions at LEAST 5 times in the last 1200 years.

That a whole bunch of activity..

Beth

This is a partial USGS map of the area that the 7+ earthquake affected.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

Blindbowman wrote

if anything most of the write data i have seen on the mine is full of BS .. only a few parts are even directly relate the the fact of waltz or his life ... but i sure Roy will come on here and tell us what we should think and reply ..

Tell you what to think and reply? Wow - are you sure you have read my posts right? Where have I ever told you what to think or reply? Evidence, logic and persuasion might change someone's mind, bullying & hostility only drives them away.

BB also wrote

and when the real mine is made public there will be no dout what so ever that it is in fact the real LDM..roy made the post to focus on anything other then the stones because he was driveing him self nuts trying to figer them out ,,.. some times you got it some times you dont ...lol

Wrong again BB - this thread is for discussion of the LDM, without the Peralta stones. It had gotten to the point that you could not discuss the LDM without every thread being hijacked into another endless round of Peralta stones. The stones certainly had not driven me nuts, only the constant hijacking did - as this is starting to look like on your part. If it turns out that it is impossible to talk about the LDM without being hijacked into Peralta stones, I will just lock this thread and quit trying - or if the hijacking comes from a single source, the little ignore button works fine.

BB also wrote

but this post was a good idea Roy and even if you dont have the back ground data i do .. i think you could write a good book ,,,...i like my endings to end with the treasure in hand my self , makes you wonder why i got back to ny before i had the ore tested

You have no idea what data I have, thank you for the compliment but no LDM book is in the works. I don't wonder why you got back to NY before having the ore tested, you may well have feared that it might cause a "gold rush" or you simply didn't think to do it. There are good assayers in AZ, and they don't ask questions about where you got your samples, just for the record.

I signed in last night but T-net was having problems so could not read any of the posts, sorry for being 'absent'. Will try to pop in later this evening.
Oroblanco

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Hey Joe,

Yeah, I will look at my notes tonight because from what I found, the timeline fit perfect. Maybe a year or two where Waltz knew about the mine, but I personally believe he was distraught because of his partners death, and actually had no intentions of going back. That is until he needed money, then he went back and took from the Caches. If you put those things together, he KNEW he had hidden enough money in the Cache to live out the rest of his life, so that could be another reason not to file. He just didnt need to mine it anymore. (Simple, I know, but that just sounds "normal" to me.)

Beth,

I was trying to make it clear that it was just my opinion that the earthquake wasnt that bad. I have several awesome pictures (as i'm sure you do as well), that are just solid 'proof' to ME, that it just couldnt have been that bad. Of course, anyone's theory on it is as good as mine.

And what is this Perfil map you speak of?? I guess it just depends on which way you think it "Points"......

Thanks again,
Travis

(Kind of shocked no one took me up on the "Pointing Tree" picture offer....)

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

It would seem that to ever bring this foolishness to a well deserved end, would require complete silence from this end. I notice that others have also come to that conclusion. Starved of attention,
the game will need to move on.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Mike,

Reavis got his settlement from Barney in 1873. He was going after the "notorious" big guys who had legal claims on file. In 1873 the LDM was not well known, if known at all. Since Waltz never made a legal claim on his mine, it's hard to imagine he gave much thought to Reavis going after it.

I didn't spend much time on this angle when I first researched the Reavis fraud and can't find a good reason to do so now. Not much meat on dem bones.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, are you sure it was 1873 and not 1883?

Granted, I still don't know if the timing is exactly right, but your comment "Since Waltz never made a legal claim on his mine, it's hard to imagine he gave much thought to Reavis going after it" seems to be on the side of the theory to explain why Waltz did NOT make a claim which is what Travis was saying.

Again, I'm not sure the timing fits, but who really knows when Waltz first found his mine/source of gold. I don't think it's that much of a stretch of a theory.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Many thanks. It was, of course, 1883.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Gossamer]

I'm still not get the notices of new messages here... doggone it.
Janiece

 

[EE THr]

Gossamer---

Are you talking about email notices?

 

[Gossamer]

Yes, and now I'm getting them! Yipppee!!!
Janiece

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Like I said, 1883. Although in researching the case, there were numerous newspaper stories that kept chiming about a person (anonymous) that may have a legal claim to most of Arizona for several years before 1883 when Reavis filed his claims.

My take on when Waltz first got to the mine was mid to late 1860s. The Reavis deal may have had some effect later on, but not in the beginning. I think the major reasons may have been the death of his partner and/or possible questions about his ownership.

Mike

 

[Al D]

Hello to all
I have been suffering from "Peraltis Stone itis" as of late and seem to have forgotten some of my Dutchman History
As I recall there were only four instances when anyone actually saw Jacob Waltz within the superstition Mountains.
I am familiar with what he said, but no one actually saw him bring out gold from the mountains.
Given the conditions of the mountains and time in which Jacob suposedly took to travel from Phoenix the the Superstitions and back, three days? or so, is it not possible, even probable that the "mine" was somewhere else say Goldfield?
Some have speculated that it may be near Tortilla canyon, i.e Barry Storm, but this makes the time of travel for Waltz even more unbelievable.
As a last note, everyone else who found gold within the mountains lost the location, how then did Jacob remember where it was located if it was in such a rugged spot and so well hidden?
Alan

 

[gollum]

Maybe because the others that found it weren't accomplished prospectors.

Waltz made his living prospecting and mining.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,
It would seem that to ever bring this foolishness to a well deserved end, would require complete silence from this end. I notice that others have also come to that conclusion. Starved of attention,
the game will need to move on.

You may be right. I hate to put anyone on ignore, but it might be necessary.

Alan M wrote

Given the conditions of the mountains and time in which Jacob suposedly took to travel from Phoenix the the Superstitions and back, three days? or so, is it not possible, even probable that the "mine" was somewhere else say Goldfield?

Some have speculated that it may be near Tortilla canyon, i.e Barry Storm, but this makes the time of travel for Waltz even more unbelievable.
As a last note, everyone else who found gold within the mountains lost the location, how then did Jacob remember where it was located if it was in such a rugged spot and so well hidden?

Three days is the common estimate of how long it took Waltz to go out to his mine and return to Phoenix, you are correct there. I agree that it is absolutely possible that Waltz's mine could be in the Goldfield area, just still hidden. Who looks for the Lost Dutchman around the tourist attraction?

I am speculating as to how Jacob knew where to find the mine, but if you have been to and from a particular spot in any wilderness several times, your brain sets up landmarks and recognition points even if you are not deliberately doing it, so after becoming familiar I would think he should have had no problems. Then again, there is that statement he gave to Reiney about "...that mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is." So maybe he also had trouble finding it on more than one occasion? That statement certainly suggests it.

Gollum wrote

Maybe because the others that found it weren't accomplished prospectors.

Waltz made his living prospecting and mining.

Very possible - however John Chuning was certainly an experienced prospector and miner, yet he could not locate it - though at the end of his life he did send a message to Bark that he had. Something about it makes it difficult for a miner to spot it, I have to think. On the other hand, Joe Deering was an experienced prospector, and he found a rich gold mine in the Superstitions so....

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

I tend to agree with you Roy. I think that if Peralta showed him the location, then he must have taken special care to memorize it. Then, after going to it a few times, it would have been easy for him. Who knows?

Mike

 

[Al D]

Good points all
I am inclined to think that Jacob Waltz mine was not really a mine in the traditional sense.
This would make it almost impossible for any seasoned miner to locate as there would be no telltail indicators of mineral rich geology to go by.
This idea supports the theory that Waltz found a cache of pre-mined gold concentrates.
I am however ignorant of the story about Peralta showing Waltz the location.
Waltz must have had some terriffic memory to be able to relocate the spot on the first try by himself, which surely must have been only the second time he had been there.
As is well known by all, the numerous authentic maps, such as the Minas Del Oro map, have not lead anyone to its location.
The story of the Apache hiding the mines must be true.
Alan

 

[Al D]

I guess I used a word that is not allowed, no dissrespect intended it was a word I used to describe my own lack of knowledge about the Peralta story and was not directed at anyone.
Best Regards
Alan

 

[Oroblanco]

Alan - I have some doubt about the Peralta story too. It is certainly possible. Tom K proposed a possible origin of this part of the legend in an article some time ago, rooted in an incident reported in the Phoenix paper. Two Peralta brothers had been attacked after their mining venture in the Goldfield area, near the Superstitions, one was killed and the other wounded. Is it possible that this story has been blended in to an otherwise basic story? I think it is possible.
Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Part of the Peralta court case:

 

[Springfield]

Has there ever been a family relationship confirmed for the Peraltas of Northern Mexico, who allegedly owned the mines in the Salt River vicinity, and Pedro Peralta, who founded Santa Fe, NM, in 1608?