The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

Do you think the Peralta stone maps are genuine, or fake?

  • They are genuine maps to the Lost Dutchman mine

    Votes: 12 9.9%

  • They are genuine maps to some lost mine, not necessarily the Dutchman

    Votes: 49 40.5%

  • They are fakes, created with the intention to fool

    Votes: 60 49.6%
  • Total voters
    121
In my opinion many authors have confused Waltz with his nephew.
Bureau of Immigration New York, N.Y.:
Jacob Von Walzer was admitted June of 1862.
Arrived: from Wurtenburg, Germany.
Education: graduated from Heidelberg University with a degree in mining engineering.
Arrived in the U.S. with the sum of $5,000.00 U.S. Dollars.

We know Waltz spent time in California mining in 1849, so he was in the U.S. prior to Walzer coming to N.Y.. We know Waltz sent for his nephew after he found gold in Prescott, Arizona. Timeline of Walzer's arrival coincides with the events as we know them. We know Walzer was in Arizona two years later because he was on the census for that year (1864).
U. S. Mint records at the U.S. Treasury show that Walzer shipped $254,000 in gold to the Sacramento mint from Hewitt Station, Arizona.
 

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sailaway said:
In my opinion many authors have confused Waltz with his nephew.
Bureau of Immigration New York, N.Y.:
Jacob Von Walzer was admitted June of 1862.
Arrived: from Wurtenburg, Germany.
Education: graduated from Heidelberg University with a degree in mining engineering.
Arrived in the U.S. with the sum of $5,000.00 U.S. Dollars.

We know Waltz spent time in California mining in 1849, so he was in the U.S. prior to Walzer coming to N.Y.. We know Waltz sent for his nephew after he found gold in Prescott, Arizona. Timeline of Walzer's arrival coincides with the events as we know them. We know Walzer was in Arizona two years later because he was on the census for that year (1864).
U. S. Mint records at the U.S. Treasury show that Walzer shipped $254,000 in gold to the Sacramento mint from Hewitt Station, Arizona.
Click to expand...


How did your Jacob von Walzer come to the United States? It wasn't by ship in 1862. A Jacob Walzer came to New York from Bavaria in 1867 on the S.S. Saint Laurent. He was 17 in 1867. Not likely our guy. There is no record of any "von Walzer" EVER coming on ANY ship to the United States. Maybe he flew into JFK?
 

somehiker said:
Reavis' "Peralta Grant"...outlined in red.
Superstition Wilderness approximate boundaries...outlined in yellow.

View attachment 1034335

Reavis in his "pinstripe suit"....:laughing7:

View attachment 1034336
Click to expand...

Not sure where you got the map of the Peralta grant but it isn't right according to Bancroft. Bancroft interviewed Reavis and looked over all his "evidence" and his petition before the court when the case was being litigated. Who was Bancroft?

HH Bancroft arrived in San Francisco in 1852 and made a huge fortune in publishing. He used his fortune to amass a gigantic collection of original documents in order to preserve the history of the west. His ultimate goal was to write the definitive history of the pacific slope of North America. In addition to himself, he hired a small army of researchers to accomplish this. Any documents he couldn't purchase, he had his researchers hand copy. This included all the archives of Mexico and as many of the old mission archives as he could find. And he looked EVERYWHERE. Very little new information has been added to the old historical record since Bancroft wrote his "Histories" in the late 1880's. Bancroft only wrote what he could back up with documentation. (the "authorities quoted" list in his "History of Mexico" is 91 pages long, for example)

Here is Bancroft's take on the Peralta grant:

Peralta grant 1.png
Peralta grant 2.png
Peralta grant 3.png
Peralta grant 4.png

From the footnote and my calculations using google maps, the center of the western boundary line is at 33º 13'58.5" N 112º 7' 52.0" W. Bancroft says it was 75 mi east to west which was 30 leagues. That makes a league 2.5 mi (70/30). 75 mi due east makes the center of the eastern boundary WSW of Pinal Peak close to where Dripping Springs Rd. crosses the south Forest Service boundary. 5 leagues (12.5 mi) north of the Gila along the western boundary puts the NW corner close to the intersection of S 41st Ave & W Buckeye Rd. in Phoenix. That makes the N boundary Buckeye Rd in Phoenix, Brown Rd in Mesa, and Lost Dutchman Blvd. in Apache Junction. Extend this boundary east into the Superstitions and it passes only 2000' or so north of the crest of Weaver's Needle. That means a large portion of the Superstitions weren't even in Reavis' Peralta grant.

The grant did include the entire Reymert area, however. JD Reymert discovered his silver lead in 1876. Very rich strike (0.999 fine silver; none assayed below 0.997) that was producing in the 80's when Reavis was perpetrating his scam. Makes me think Reymert was what Reavis was ultimately going after...

hmmmmmm.... maybe the stones are a map to Reymert from the Gila, fakes produced by Reavis (or commissioned by him). My thinking is this: 1st Reavis gets the court to uphold the Peralta grant. Then he "accidentally discovers" the stones on his property and follows them to Reymert. Next he uses them as proof the Peraltas were the original locators of the Reymert strike. He could then contend since the strike was on their grant and predate JD Reymert's discovery (maybe that's why '1847' was carved into one of them), the Peraltas are the rightful owners. Further, since he is the current owner of the Peralta grant, he is now the rightful owner of the Reymert district... But Reavis got tossed in the big house and couldn't recover them, so the stones just waited around for Tumlinson to find them. The DesertUSA pics of the stones do look similar to the country rock in the pics of Reymert.

Or they could be a map to the LDM. Who knows?
 

sailaway said:
In my opinion many authors have confused Waltz with his nephew.
Bureau of Immigration New York, N.Y.:
Jacob Von Walzer was admitted June of 1862.
Arrived: from Wurtenburg, Germany.
Education: graduated from Heidelberg University with a degree in mining engineering.
Arrived in the U.S. with the sum of $5,000.00 U.S. Dollars.

We know Waltz spent time in California mining in 1849, so he was in the U.S. prior to Walzer coming to N.Y.. We know Waltz sent for his nephew after he found gold in Prescott, Arizona. Timeline of Walzer's arrival coincides with the events as we know them. We know Walzer was in Arizona two years later because he was on the census for that year (1864).
U. S. Mint records at the U.S. Treasury show that Walzer shipped $254,000 in gold to the Sacramento mint from Hewitt Station, Arizona.
Click to expand...

Those suppositions sound quite a bit like Barney Barnard. I never located any documentation to corroborate Barnard's claims however am open to them being true - were you able to prove any of the above and if so would you share references? Thanks
 

sailaway said:
https://eservices.archives.gov/orde...SWETS=1504229428&SWEScreen=GPEA+Microfilm+MIF
records are in the microfilms, there are 675 microfilm rolls of just indexes of arrivals not to mention actual passenger lists.

If you look each date has a price just to order the microfilm the ones you need are 12 bucks. rolls #219 and 220.
Click to expand...

You can access those archive records through FamilySearch for free. Going through all the records for those 2 rolls is about 1100 images so while it can be done, it's obviously pretty tedious. Can you narrow down the data or otherwise point out the record for the Jacob Von Walzer who arrived in June 1862? Years ago I know of a couple people who went through those rolls and records and it's possible they missed the one that showed him arriving, but neither one of them could find documented evidence.

Thanks in advance for the help
 

I have traveled to many foreign ports of call on my own sailboat. I personally know many Germans who sail the world. Do you think my record of arrival is on any commercial liner passenger list? When it comes to Crew on private vessels they can disembark at any port of call after checking in to Immigrations. Many sailboats take on crew with the understanding that the crew will disembark when arriving where they want to go. The key is the boat gets an extra watch so that the captain and other mates get extra sleep while the temporary crew are on board. There are many ocean tramps that will work to get to the next port at many ports worldwide. My own yacht was built in Germany then sailed and sold as new after crossing the Atlantic. Who do you think sailed it across the ocean? Working on getting a image of Immigration record. What I did notice in the online search sites was the crew list did not start till 1897. During June 1862, 13 vessels from Germany arrived in NY, Two were passenger liners the rest are unlisted online.
research Germans to America
https://www.landesarchiv-bw.de/web#top
 

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sailaway said:
I have traveled to many foreign ports of call on my own sailboat. I personally know many Germans who sail the world. Do you think my record of arrival is on any commercial liner passenger list? When it comes to Crew on private vessels they can disembark at any port of call after checking in to Immigrations. Many sailboats take on crew with the understanding that the crew will disembark when arriving where they want to go. The key is the boat gets an extra watch so that the captain and other mates get extra sleep while the temporary crew are on board. There are many ocean tramps that will work to get to the next port at many ports worldwide. My own yacht was built in Germany then sailed and sold as new after crossing the Atlantic. Who do you think sailed it across the ocean? Working on getting a image of Immigration record. What I did notice in the online search sites was the crew list did not start till 1897. During June 1862, 13 vessels from Germany arrived in NY, Two were passenger liners the rest are unlisted online.
Click to expand...

I apologize for misinterpreting your posts #2382 & 2387. I thought from the way it was written that you had documented evidence of a Jacob Von Walzer arriving in NY during June 1862 from the Bureau of Immigration in New York.

Also, if you start to go through rolls #219 and #220 you'll find there are FAR MORE vessels that arrived from Germany in the online records than 13 and quite a number of them were smaller boats with less than 10 people aboard.
 

Lucky Baldwin

You wrote : " The DesertUSA pics of the stones do look similar to the country rock in the pics of Reymert. "

Can you post the Reymert's pics of the rocky country ?
 

sailaway said:
https://eservices.archives.gov/orde...SWETS=1504229428&SWEScreen=GPEA+Microfilm+MIF
records are in the microfilms, there are 675 microfilm rolls of just indexes of arrivals not to mention actual passenger lists.

If you look each date has a price just to order the microfilm the ones you need are 12 bucks. rolls #219 and 220.
Click to expand...


You don't have to pay for squat. The International Ship Transcribers Guild has a website (www.immigrantships.net). There, you can freely search the manifests of all ships. You can search by name, date, ship, port of entry, etc.

Mike
 

Sailaway,

You also have another huge problem with your position:

IF (and that is a big IF) Jacob Waltz had a nephew, his name WAS NOT Walz, Walzer, or Waltzer. It was Weisser, Wiser, or Weiser. Recall the story of how Waltz stayed in Florence an extra day while getting supplies, and the Apache attacked the camp and shot up his (cousin, nephew). He made his way out of the mountains to a Pima Village. They took him to a Doctor? He gave the Doctor the gold in his pocket and a map? Recall the name of the map?

Mike
 

Mike, why did you only find one immigration record in your search? Here is a list just from Battery Point much less other harbors/ yacht basins in NY, 1820-1870.
Jacob W IMM.PNG

Yes I know the name of the map is Walker/Wieser, but that does not mean history has not been shaped wrong by those before us.
FYI: The English translation of Walzer is Waltz. Makes it very hard to search the German Data Banks.
There are two rolls of microfilm just on Germans who Immigrated on vessels other than Passenger liners.1840-1878
Wiesser Immigration records
Wiesser J IMM.PNG
 

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sailaway said:
Mike, why did you only find one immigration record in your search? Here is a list just from Battery Point much less other harbors/ yacht basins in NY, 1820-1870.
View attachment 1489550

Yes I know the name of the map is Walker/Wieser, but that does not mean history has not been shaped wrong by those before us.
FYI: The English translation of Walzer is Waltz. Makes it very hard to search the German Data Banks.
Click to expand...

Sooooooooo, are you saying that Doctor Walker misheard the man say his name? Lied or was mistaken when he told the story? Its very easy to say how history is wrong, and you are right with no proof. Maybe the guy the doctor was treating was asking for Wasser and he thought he was saying his name. HAHAHA So, which story do you believe? Apache killed Waltz's Nephew/Cousin? Waltz murdered his nephew/cousin over publicly claiming the mine? Waltz didn't have a nephew/cousin he worked with? Waltz had a son with a Pima Squaw while living with the tribe? There are a bunch of stories. What proof do you have that what you think is the best story has any basis in fact?

Its the reason I don't hunt the Lost Dutchman. I know all the stories. I know a LOT of the actual history. I know the area very well. I also know that about 95% of everything publicly known about the Lost Dutchman Mine Story is complete and utter BS. Much of it made up by Jim Bark to keep tourists and Dutch Hunters away from his cattle, springs, water troughs, and rock houses (line shacks) in the mountains. How do you know the ore the match safe, cuff links, tie tack, and watch chain are made of is from the LDM? Because ONE PERSON said so...Dick Holmes. Show me one historical document that proves there was ever a Peralta Mine in the Superstitions? People spout so much about the story with authority, but they have ZERO FACTUAL EVIDENCE to back it up.

Don't get me wrong. I firmly believe Jacob Waltz had a rich gold mine somewhere in the Superstition Mountains. I firmly believe the Peralta and Gonzalez Families had rich gold mines in the Superstition Mountains Area. I just don't believe anybody will EVER find it based on any known evidence. Everybody will always continue to do what they have always done; pick and choose which bull$hit stories they want to believe which bolster their pet theories. Most will never go into the mountains to run down their theories.


Mike



PS

I don't know whether or not you know about it, but if you don't, you should REALLY go look at Feldman's Old LDM Forum. Almost everything under the sun pertaining to the LDM has been hashed and rehashed a dozen times there. Its the best online repository of LDM Information. lostdutchmangoldmine dot com (its against the rules to link to another forum).
 

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Mike,

Here is another story: Some time ago, Randy told me a reporter came to him asking questions about the LDM. Randy told him the man to talk to was Ron Feldman. He replied, he had already done that the previous week. Said Ron told him that they had discovered a NEW vein in the Mammoth Mine and the ore looked very much like what the Dutchman ore was said to look like. He, I believe, continued by saying he believed the Mammoth was really Waltz's mine.

The web just continues to grow larger......every year.

Hope all is well with you. Hope to see you next month.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Mike,

Here is another story: Some time ago, Randy told me a reporter came to him asking questions about the LDM. Randy told him the man to talk to was Ron Feldman. He replied, he had already done that the previous week. Said Ron told him that they had discovered a NEW vein in the Mammoth Mine and the ore looked very much like what the Dutchman ore was said to look like. He, I believe, continued by saying he believed the Mammoth was really Waltz's mine.

The web just continues to grow larger......every year.

Hope all is well with you. Hope to see you next month.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...


HAHAHA Hadn't heard about that one. Sounds to me like a way of getting rid of some old rich ore that would otherwise attract a lot of attention! P** M***??

Mike
 

Hell...If anyone were to make it worth my wile...I would take them on an adventure that they might only dream of...I just don't know how much cash might be involved in such a venture...Especially if one were to solve the mystery of the ldm, tayopa, the Molina project, the Perfil map and who knows what other treasure tales...Not to mention the long lost area of Quito...Did I fail to mention the caches that might be involved in such an adventure... Who knows... I doubt that: Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Richard Branson, or the Koch brothers might be interested in such an adventure... But if the cache mentioned for Tayopa might be anywhere near the stash mentioned on the internet... The sky is the limit... How much is a Platinum deposit of lore worth??? I could be wrong... But I have my suspicions on the Peralta stones... And other things...
 

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markmar said:
Lucky Baldwin

You wrote : " The DesertUSA pics of the stones do look similar to the country rock in the pics of Reymert. "

Can you post the Reymert's pics of the rocky country ?
Click to expand...

Hi Markmar

First off let me say I AM NOT married to my Reavis theory. If I was a betting man I'd bet against it being correct. I just don't think Reavis was knowledgeable enough about mining and mining symbols to come up with the design of the stones. Now if he saw the stones somewhere, I bet he could copy them, but come up with the original design? I don't think so. Plus, even though the heart stone and the Reymert stones look similar, I would bet they are different types of rock. I was just throwing the theory out there as another way to explain where they came from, how they got there and why stone and not paper. While I think the theory is possible, I don't think it's likely.

Personally, from reading all of Mr. Hikers posts and seeing his pics, I think he may be onto something.

The main purpose of my post was not to promote my shaky Reavis theory, it was to present the facts of the "Peralta Grant" case as it was presented to the court, and to describe the actual boundaries.

Now on with the pics. 1st two are the ones that got me thinking they looked similar

heart stone.jpgReymert.png

Old adit into the mine.
reymert adit.jpg

Looks to me like an old oven they cooked the ore in before crushing (I could be wrong)
reymert oven.jpg

Not sure what this is. Maybe an incline cut for winching ore carts.
reymert1.jpg
If Phoenix ever gets a foot of snow, I know where I'm going tubing.
 

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