WATCH AND CLOCK MAKERS PRINTING PLATE..SOLVED BY DCMATT AND CURIOUS THE GEORGE!!

[civilman1]

When I get home I have an hour of daylight left Since it's deer hunting season,I split my time.I live on 154 ac. so I had a 1/2 hr. for the MXT and a 1/2 hr. for the Remington Anyway,let me start with I knew excactly what this puppy was when I popped the plug (9").....A mangled pice of brass Seriously,I put it on the recycle bin and left for the bank barn for the last 1/2 hr.Got back and soap and watered it with a soft toothbrush and started revealing bit by bit an engraving that I can't even get a decent image from.....Yet!!!!(stay tuned).It's all hatch marked on the front and as you can see in some of the cleaned picture's some of the detail........Enough said,In the Eye of the Beholder!!!By the way it was found 15ft. from my Block A button!!!

SEE BELOW OR READ FOR THE RIDE TO SEE FAR FROM IT!!!!

 

[DCMatt]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Someone will have to show me the horse/cow/pig on this plate. I can't see it.

I see a folkart portrait of a man with long hair facing left.

I'm NOT saying it is George Washington I'm simply posting the picture for reference.

Here is what I see. I took varying degrees of contrast and brightness of one of the posted images, printed them, and started penciling in the visible lines.



This is what I have so far. If you don't see it, please don't chastise me. I'm just trying to offer a fresh perspective.

DCMatt

 

[Curious The George]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Need to look at the clearer picture of that area.

 

[DCMatt]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

I saw that "pig's ear" and assumed it was a tuft of hair. Classic male pattern baldness...

DCMatt

 

[DCMatt]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

artyfacts, Good work with the enhancement. The last word in the last line looks to be, "Town". First word, last line is still not coming through the fog. It will be great when the owner gets it cleaned up so the engraving can be read.

The animal on the other side is starting to look like a cow instead of a pig, but we'll see. The thing needs flattening out and cleaning up.

Additional observations... If the last word is Town (and I believe it is) then the first letter of the first line is a T.

The calligraphy ingraved on the back is very nicely (professionally?) done and to me is contrary to the "folkart" scratched on the front side.

I'm anxious to see more photos.

DCMatt

 

[Curious The George]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

The calligraphy ingraved on the back is very nicely (professionally?) done and to me is contrary to the "folkart" scratched on the front side.

I'm anxious to see more photos.

DCMatt

I'll second that! (Actually third that)

 

[civilman1]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

George....What is it that you don't understand? READ the Title:

1.ENGRAVED....
2.CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE....

 

[Curious The George]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

George....What is it that you don't understand? READ the Title:

1.ENGRAVED....
2.CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE....

As I said in posts that have been removed from this thread. It is engraved on one side by a professional engraver, backwards. That is done for printing plates not belt buckles.

The other side has some kind of picture engraved on it, some have said that that engraving is crude or non professional work. They are wrong. There is a tremendous amount of skill needed to make crosshatching like that in metal. Crosshatching is used in engraved printing plates to make shadows and darker areas because it concentrates black ink in that part of the design. Take a look at some engravings, closely, and you'll see similar crosshatching used. Who ever did it was a master of engraving. All those parallel lines spaced equally apart and applied in the right areas is not something a guy with a pocket knife does around the camp fire. The side with the pig head on it may also have been engraved for printing. An illustration in a book, newspaper or advertizing piece.

There is no apparent attachment points for the loop and hook needed for it to be used as a belt plate. There is one smudge of something in one place that has been called that but so far no proof that it is a spot of solder has been posted on here.

Until it is cleaned up so the backwards writing can be read ,the picture on the other side interpreted and for certain identify three solder points for attachment it remains an unknown copper or brass plate.

There is no way the expense and trouble of backwards engraved script writing would be applied to a belt plate. Belt plates are worn one side out and with rare exceptions (owners name) only have a design on one side. For certain the engraving on the front wouldn't be backwards and if the owner wanted his name on the back side it would be engraved so it could be read by someone, not engraved backwards to use to print a calling card or some other printed item.

 

[Curious The George]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Here is an engraving by the master of copper engraving. Notice the crosshatching used to indicate shadows and texture.

 

[MiniMe]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Hi George,
Is there a reason why this could NOT be a clipped belt plate that was later used as a printing plate? maybe done by a soldier, who you don't know, may have been an expert engraver and using his belt plate?

Once it is straightened it will be great to finally get a print off this clipped corner belt plate. Until then George, I wish you a Happy New Year!

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Civilman,

I have the greatest respect for you and your finds, but I have been watching this thread for some time now and I'll be honest with you--I have some real reservations about this once having been a belt plate. It is possible that it is one that has been re-purposed, but I don't see the correct solder marks where the attachments would've been. I worry that this is one of those frustrating relics that you may never know a definitive answer on. This is not Mullinax 453, as that is a rectangular plate and what you dug is square. What are the dimensions of the piece again? Width, Height, and Thickness? I'll do my best to help search for a match in my relic books.

Best Wishes,

Buckles

 

[civilman1]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Civilman,

I have the greatest respect for you and your finds, but I have been watching this thread for some time now and I'll be honest with you--I have some real reservations about this once having been a belt plate. It is possible that it is one that has been re-purposed, but I don't see the correct solder marks where the attachments would've been. I worry that this is one of those frustrating relics that you may never know a definitive answer on. This is not Mullinax 453, as that is a rectangular plate and what you dug is square. What are the dimensions of the piece again? Width, Height, and Thickness? I'll do my best to help search for a match in my relic books.

Best Wishes,

Buckles

Thank's BB,I'll shoot you the dimension's when I get home.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Thank's BB,I'll shoot you the dimension's when I get home.

 

[Curious The George]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Hi George,
Is there a reason why this could NOT be a clipped belt plate that was later used as a printing plate? maybe done by a soldier, who you don't know, may have been an expert engraver and using his belt plate?

Once it is straightened it will be great to finally get a print off this clipped corner belt plate. Until then George, I wish you a Happy New Year!

Hello Minime,

Happy New Year to you and yours also.

To accommodate a belt there has to be a way to attach it to the belt. There is one blob of iron in one photo that looks to be a nail head that was touching the plate and corroded to it. A normal belt plate has a loop soldered on one end of it and that has two attachment points. The other end would have had a hook to catch another piece that would be on the other end of the belt or post to go through the hole in the belt. There is no evidence of the attachments having been on the plate in any of the photos posted here.

The material used for engraved printing plates is soft so the engraver doesn't have to fight the material to engrave it. The material used for belt plates is harder to withstand the abuse they get. You would not take a belt plate and make a printing plate from it, or visa versa, two different materials for two different purposes. As far as using an old belt plate to make a printing plate you need to picture the skill and work involved in engraving, backwards letters on one side and a picture on the other side. I would guess 3-4 hours to do the circle with the oval and writing inside along with all the decorations on it. And 8-10 hours to engrave the picture on the other side. An engraver wouldn't start out with inferior material before investing his talent and time on it. He would want a perfectly flat piece of copper to work with or the engraving would not print onto the paper when put in the press, it would be a mess.

There is no evidence of wear on the ends of the plate where a leather or cloth belt would have rubbed on it in use.

Paul Revere engraved copper printing plates. I think Civilmans find is quite unique and I hope he does send it to the guy he mentioned for restoration. That person restored a early Militia Belt Plate for me and did quite a wonderful job of it. I don't think that calling a found artifact a belt plate when it isn't a belt plate is very productive to others who read and research on Tnet.

You want to read a great story of a copper printing plate,

Google -- Area man finds copper plate used to print Revolutionary War-era money

If you go to this site, enlarge the picture of the printing plate. Note the three corners that you can see in the photo. Printing plate corners are clipped or rounded to keep the sharp point from curling up and ruining the print.

Early copper engraved printing plates can be quite a slice of history.

 

[Curious The George]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Here is some more work on the images. Still can't bring it all out but will keep trying until the cleaned images are posted.

Perhaps someone can pick out a letter or two to give some clues.

Conclusion so far is that the last word, last line is "Town". First letter, first line is "T" but it could be a script "F" or "I".

 

[Relichunter1]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

What ever it is, its still a great relic find in my book.... and a keeper ! Happy New Year !

 

[Bell]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Been watching this for a while too, and while it may have been an attempt to make a printing plate, I don't think it could have worked very well. Its made the opposite of any plate I've ever seen, and anything printed with it would have been splotchy at best.

 

[Curious The George]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

I am happy to report that a collaboration with another TNet member has solved the puzzle.

A lucky happening and using some information to further research by another member identified most of what is engraved on the backwards lettering side. He pinpointed who this was engraved for and where that person lived.

Using that information and further research I have done has confirmed exactly what this was used to print, the script engraved side that is.

I also suspect that the side with the picture engraved on it is for the same or similar printing purpose.

There is no doubt that it is an engraved printing plate. And no doubt who at least one side was engraved by or for.

I am waiting for the collaborator to get back to me on blending what he and what I have found and then he or I will post complete details here with photos to back up what has been discovered.

Civilman you have something far more important than a militia belt plate.

 

[romeo-1]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Looking forward to the results if the research.

 

[MiniMe]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

George,
We can't wait to see the outcome. Been driving me crazy . I thank you and others for your time of researching this AWESOME FIND! Been the devils advocate on this and hey, if I'm wrong I am the type of person to say thank you and admit to being wrong. Hope to see the results soon and hope that all involved in cracking this mystery will come forth as everyone deserves recognition for the time put into this find. Thanks and Happy New Year!!!!!

 

[Curious The George]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

George,
We can't wait to see the outcome. Been driving me crazy . I thank you and others for your time of researching this AWESOME FIND! Been the devils advocate on this and hey, if I'm wrong I am the type of person to say thank you and admit to being wrong. Hope to see the results soon and hope that all involved in cracking this mystery will come forth as everyone deserves recognition for the time put into this find. Thanks and Happy New Year!!!!!

Minime,
Did you get my PM reply to you?