WATCH AND CLOCK MAKERS PRINTING PLATE..SOLVED BY DCMATT AND CURIOUS THE GEORGE!!

[civilman1]

When I get home I have an hour of daylight left Since it's deer hunting season,I split my time.I live on 154 ac. so I had a 1/2 hr. for the MXT and a 1/2 hr. for the Remington Anyway,let me start with I knew excactly what this puppy was when I popped the plug (9").....A mangled pice of brass Seriously,I put it on the recycle bin and left for the bank barn for the last 1/2 hr.Got back and soap and watered it with a soft toothbrush and started revealing bit by bit an engraving that I can't even get a decent image from.....Yet!!!!(stay tuned).It's all hatch marked on the front and as you can see in some of the cleaned picture's some of the detail........Enough said,In the Eye of the Beholder!!!By the way it was found 15ft. from my Block A button!!!

SEE BELOW OR READ FOR THE RIDE TO SEE FAR FROM IT!!!!

 

[Curious The George]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Went through the same process with this image.

Now it reads "B" "W" when it is turned right side up and flipped.

 

[ynpto804]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

I want to jump in the plate/printing plate argument. From my experience having dug one and seen a couple good examples You have a very genuine Va militia belt plate. You can very well see a attachment point on the lower right of the plate in the 5th picture in the OP. I would imagine that if there where other attachment point the solider could have removed them while carving the piece.
Although you may never know of what this plate was used for after it was a buckle, it is a amazing piece of history. Do not get discouraged of what other people have to say about your find.
http://relicman.com/plates/zArchivePlate2Virginia.htmP0357 Virginia rectangle belt plate, Virginia militia, plain sheet brass.
P0357A.JPG (29778 bytes) P0357B.JPG (28156 bytes) Plain sheet buckles and shoulder plates were issue to most Virginia militia units in the 1830's to 1850's. These plates are made of heavy sheet brass, hand cut, so there will be considerable variety of size. This shoulder plate is rectangle, a long keeper bar of brass was soldered at one end for the hooks, folded sheet at the other end for the tongue, plate was affixed to a waist belt, usually made of white web cotton. Seldom do these pins survive, many are found in the field having fallen off the belt when the solder failed, these plates were not adequate for the hard campaigns of the Civil War. Corners were clipped on this example, the plate will definitely wear more comfortably with removal of the sharp corners. Plate measures 58mm X 83mm (hand cut). Dug plate, hooks missing. Recovered: Pumpkin Ridge, Clearbrook, Virginia, by Harry Ridgeway, in the 1960's.
Ref: Mullinax Expanded Edition, Plate 453.
Item on display at the Old Court House Civil War Museum, Winchester, Virginia.

 

[civilman1]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

I want to jump in the plate/printing plate argument. From my experience having dug one and seen a couple good examples You have a very genuine Va militia belt plate. You can very well see a attachment point on the lower right of the plate in the 5th picture in the OP. I would imagine that if there where other attachment point the solider could have removed them while carving the piece.
Although you may never know of what this plate was used for after it was a buckle, it is a amazing piece of history. Do not get discouraged of what other people have to say about your find.
http://relicman.com/plates/zArchivePlate2Virginia.htmP0357 Virginia rectangle belt plate, Virginia militia, plain sheet brass.
P0357A.JPG (29778 bytes) P0357B.JPG (28156 bytes) Plain sheet buckles and shoulder plates were issue to most Virginia militia units in the 1830's to 1850's. These plates are made of heavy sheet brass, hand cut, so there will be considerable variety of size. This shoulder plate is rectangle, a long keeper bar of brass was soldered at one end for the hooks, folded sheet at the other end for the tongue, plate was affixed to a waist belt, usually made of white web cotton. Seldom do these pins survive, many are found in the field having fallen off the belt when the solder failed, these plates were not adequate for the hard campaigns of the Civil War. Corners were clipped on this example, the plate will definitely wear more comfortably with removal of the sharp corners. Plate measures 58mm X 83mm (hand cut). Dug plate, hooks missing. Recovered: Pumpkin Ridge, Clearbrook, Virginia, by Harry Ridgeway, in the 1960's.
Ref: Mullinax Expanded Edition, Plate 453.
Item on display at the Old Court House Civil War Museum, Winchester, Virginia.

Thank You

 

[Lanny in AB]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Very cool find!

All the best,

Lanny

 

[Steve in PA]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Joe, That's what I thought all along - pre war Virginia militia WAISTBELT plate. Here is my SHOULDER BELT plate (#444 in Steve Mullinax's Confederate plate book) before Roland straightened it for me. You can see the two solder marks for the pin and the Smith & Sons mark in the center. Here is mine after straightening (along with the only other 3 plates I have found). The solder marks aren't as visible due to some coloring Roland used to hide the bend lines. Your plate is #453 in Mullinax book. The Smith & Son mark would have been on the tongue of yours.

 

[ynpto804]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

http://www.butchmayes.net/index.php?crn=97&rn=321&action=show_detail

Sorry I posted a rectangle one. I don't know what I was thinking. This is a example of a square one that is for sale found in dug condition. Not meaning to give a huge amount of "glory" away. Just trying to give credit to a digger that made a nice historical find.

 

[artyfacts]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Great find... Whether it is a belt or sash, clipped corner plate or a printing plate, or both. Very interesting... Arty

 

[Curious The George]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

artyfacts, Good work with the enhancement. The last word in the last line looks to be, "Town". First word, last line is still not coming through the fog. It will be great when the owner gets it cleaned up so the engraving can be read.

The animal on the other side is starting to look like a cow instead of a pig, but we'll see. The thing needs flattening out and cleaning up.

 

[Steve in PA]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Your plate is #453 in Mullinax book. The Smith & Son mark would have been on the tongue of yours.

Steve, #453 in the Mullinax book ( Confederate Belt Buckles & Plates) is quite rectangular. The plate depicted in this post is very, very square. Please explain how you morph a square into a rectangle. And also I don't see an engraved pig in the Mullinax illustration nor backwards writing on either side.

And in your post #17 the link goes to a quite rectangular plate. And again the one shown in this post is very, very square.

While there may be a great deal of glory associated with finding a Confederate Virginia belt plate let's not stretch the known data to fit an unknown piece of metal.

I think when the finder cleans the piece up so the engraving can be seen clearly and makes a small test scrape on an edge to determine if it is copper or brass. Then posts the dimensions. And finally the cleaning should clearly show where hooks and loops were or were not attached we all can make a clear decision instead of WAG's.

You are correct George, Joe's buckle appears to be almost square, and Mullinax #453 is rectangular. I noticed that Joe's was sort of squarish, but I thought it might be due to camera angle or something like that. I stand corrected. You are right, dimensions would be very helpful as would good pictures of the solder marks.

 

[The Seeker]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Hey Civillman.......its one of those things you have to put up to a black light....hahah or the next best thing, hold it up to a mirror.....then read it! Hey you never know........Keep on digging! John

 

[ynpto804]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

"These plates are made of heavy sheet brass, hand cut, so there will be considerable variety of size"

ynpto, That one is 1 3/4" square. The one in this post looks to be almost 3" square. It still doesn't make the one on this post a buckle.

Until someone comes up with why a professional engraver put words on it backwards I ain't buying into the buckle theory.

These boys where quite talented, I'm not sure a professional engraver did this. There are quite alot of great examples of solider art and quite easy to find.Heck there was a great example on the banner.

BTW what Virginia unit had a pig as its regimental emblem?

LOL.. Its a horse.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Talcum powder may settle in the engraving if it is deep enough, and allow you to read it after wiping the excess off.

Regards,

Buckles

 

[MiniMe]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

I see a mane, but will find out when it is cleaned up. I've personally been able to hold this and have had the opportunity to look very closely at it. I don't agree with the BW theory and Can you PLEASE explain the clipped corners to me...Seriously, I'm asking you, was it custom to clip the corners of a printing plate ? I've not been able to find one, show me!

 

[Bavaria Mike]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

Interesting piece you have there! You might try laying a piece of thin tissue paper over it, if possible, and lightly rub a pencil over the paper, just might give a few more details. I have an old video, VHS light that mounted on my old video camera, I shine this light sideways over the relic I am taking a picture of and it really brings out the details. HH and let us know of any break throughs, Mike

 

[matt092079]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

I must have terrible eyes. I can't make out a horse a pig or anything on it! It is indeed a neat find though. It could be all of the above, you really don't know whose hands it's been in before it was dug.

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

What a great find Joe! I can't wait to see what it reads

 

[civilman1]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

What a great find Joe! I can't wait to see what it reads

I've got to send this one off to RoFro to have straightened first,Then hopefully I can start to work with a print.It's still a Clipped Corner no matter what

 

[wyattearp]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

If you have Photo Shop pull those pictures up and play with the colors and a little enhancement. You will be suprised what pops out.

 

[olepossum]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

could be a map also ever thought of that to what or where only you will find it i would use rice paper and a pencil or charol and do a rubbing donr that on a few old head stones to get the name and info the brought up the jump starter and dremel tool and re engraved one had the only living relative with me when we done it they were happy to see it was found and refurbished

 

[MiniMe]

Re: ENGRAVED CLIPPED CORNER BELT PLATE!!....UPDATED CLOSE UP PIC'S!!!

If you have Photo Shop pull those pictures up and play with the colors and a little enhancement. You will be suprised what pops out.

Been playing with this clipped for a while in photo shop, still can't make out all of it. I'm sure it will help when it's straightened out.