What happened to the Kidd-Palmer treasure maps?

[gjb]

I would remind you that I hold a considerable portion of Wilkins' files. By all means declare that you know what Wilkins believed even though this conflicts with what he declared in his personal papers that he actually believed.

Are we truly conducting inquiries here, because this is definitely not how inquiries ought to be conducted. You're completely dismissive and contemptuous of everybody else and their work. It's clear that you reckon that you can go it alone, so do so.

 

[Cryptid1990]

I would remind you that I hold a considerable portion of Wilkins' files. By all means declare that you know what Wilkins believed even though this conflicts with what he declared in his personal papers that he actually believed.

Are we truly conducting inquiries here, because this is definitely not how inquiries ought to be conducted. You're completely dismissive and contemptuous of everybody else and their work. It's clear that you reckon that you can go it alone, so do so.

I am dismissive of individuals who cherry-pick a few topographical details on the Kidd-Palmer maps to match a real island (ignoring profound differences) and/or who find a similar shaped real island in situ or by rotation of the island depicted on the Kidd-Palmer maps; by this method you can arbitrarily identify the island on the Kidd-Palmer maps with dozens of real islands across the world. It is no surprise having read numerous books on buried treasure, following discussions on treasure hunting message boards (including this one), and several other websites I have so far come across at least 36 (!) different island identifications by cranks and amateur researchers (a few I already mentioned including Hon Tre Lon, Koh Matlang and the Providenciales). The French writer I mentioned in my previous post for example, used Google Maps to find an island near Thailand that looks similar to the island on the Coral Island Map, if rotated. In contrast, yet another amateur researcher, Howard Frey identified a different island (photo credit: Howard Frey).

Same flawed method: cherry-pick a few topographical similarities (ignoring all the differences) on one or more of the Kidd-Palmer maps (in this example, the Skeleton Map) and find a similar shaped real island. Then claim to have discovered the spot of the buried treasure. Frey never actually named the island in his photo, but it appears to be Castaway Cay in the Abaco Islands, Bahamas.

Of course, for those 36 location identifications - not one amateur researcher has ever found the treasure. This brings me to my other main criticism and why I admittedly have a very low opinion of many of these cranks and amateur researchers: some of those who claim to have identified the island (I will not name names), then state they want to launch an "expedition" to recover the treasure and demand funds or an investor. It's a scam and grift. Quite frankly, these people are morally bankrupt. What then happens is their websites vanish and we never hear from them again. No treasure is recovered. Did they return any of the money gullible people invested or donated?

 

[Bocaj]

I am dismissive of individuals who cherry-pick a few topographical details on the Kidd-Palmer maps to match a real island (ignoring profound differences) and/or who find a similar shaped real island in situ or by rotation of the island depicted on the Kidd-Palmer maps; by this method you can arbitrarily identify the island on the Kidd-Palmer maps with dozens of real islands across the world. It is no surprise having read numerous books on buried treasure, following discussions on treasure hunting message boards (including this one), and several other websites I have so far come across at least 36 (!) different island identifications by cranks and amateur researchers (a few I already mentioned including Hon Tre Lon, Koh Matlang and the Providenciales). The French writer I mentioned in my previous post for example, used Google Maps to find an island near Thailand that looks similar to the island on the Coral Island Map, if rotated. In contrast, yet another amateur researcher, Howard Frey identified a different island (photo credit: Howard Frey).

View attachment 2219650

Same flawed method: cherry-pick a few topographical similarities (ignoring all the differences) on one or more of the Kidd-Palmer maps (in this example, the Skeleton Map) and find a similar shaped real island. Then claim to have discovered the spot of the buried treasure. Frey never actually named the island in his photo, but it appears to be Castaway Cay in the Abaco Islands, Bahamas.

Of course, for those 36 location identifications - not one amateur researcher has ever found the treasure. This brings me to my other main criticism and why I admittedly have a very low opinion of many of these cranks and amateur researchers: some of those who claim to have identified the island (I will not name names), then state they want to launch an "expedition" to recover the treasure and demand funds or an investor. It's a scam and grift. Quite frankly, these people are morally bankrupt. What then happens is their websites vanish and we never hear from them again. No treasure is recovered. Did they return any of the money gullible people invested or donated?

Its a risk people take like any other kind of investment. Frankly I am not convinced of the rest neither so I am not even investing in Apple or Google shares.

Why would someone even publish where that island is? At least not before making sure there is no treasure on it. Why share if all that is needed is a flight ticked and a shovel?

Anyway it would be nice to return to the original topic of what happen to the maps!

 

[Cryptid1990]

Its a risk people take like any other kind of investment. Frankly I am not convinced of the rest neither so I am not even investing in Apple or Google shares.

Why would someone even publish where that island is? At least not before making sure there is no treasure on it. Why share if all that is needed is a flight ticked and a shovel?

I have noticed something else that happens with numerous of these dodgy "expeditions". No treasure is ever found so instead it is claimed Captain Kidd's initials or name are found carved on rocks. The French amateur researcher I mentioned, Albert Fagioli, has said he discovered Kidd's initials on a rock but this is highly improbable. Aside from the fact the rock markings seen in the below video are ambiguous; there is no historical evidence Kidd traveled to Thailand, nor does Fagioli explain why Kidd carved his initials into a random rock.



Similarly, Howard Frey said there is a photo of the word Kidd "chiseled into stone":

 

[Bocaj]

I have noticed something else that happens with numerous of these dodgy "expeditions". No treasure is ever found so instead it is claimed Captain Kidd's initials or name are found carved on rocks. The French amateur researcher I mentioned, Albert Fagioli, has said he discovered Kidd's initials on a rock but this is highly improbable. Aside from the fact the rock markings seen in the below video are ambiguous; there is no historical evidence Kidd traveled to Thailand, nor does Fagioli explain why Kidd carved his initials into a random rock.



Similarly, Howard Frey said there is a photo of the word Kidd "chiseled into stone":

View attachment 2219723

Map fakes, forgeries and facsimiles - notes on selected items

3. Palmer's original charts with the mirror etc. seem still to be in England, perhaps having been inherited by the housekeeper's heirs. The mirror was presented to Prince Philip in 1955 and returned by him in 2001 to the heirs of the person who made the original presentation.

Any further information on this?

 

[Cryptid1990]

Map fakes, forgeries and facsimiles - notes on selected items

Any further information on this?

Unfortunately no but this source supports my claim (contrary to Gjb) the maps were not sold to a Canadian-US syndicate. Writing in 2008, Barber, of the British Library (he was Head of Maps and Topography from 2001 to 2015) wrote he thought the maps were still in England. As for the mirror, I presume Barber means the Yunnan Parchment which according to Edmunds, was found "in a cavity in the back of a mirror frame that had the initials WK carved on it." The mirror in oak frame (but not parchment) was sold at an auction in 1950 by Oakden & Co (Lot 305). The buyer for £2 was "Mr. Thorn". The mirror and frame appeared at another auction in 2012 by Fieldings Auctioneers, who confirmed the 1950 sale: "Fieldings also hold the sale catalogue, the mirror lot 305 was purchased for." (Photo credit: Fieldings Auctioneers)

I have no information about the mirror being presented to Prince Philip in 1955. According to George Edmunds in 2012, "Pat Croce of the Pirate Museum in Florida successfully bid" for the mirror and other items seen in photo.

Although I do not trust Maurice Taylor, he did not claim to have purchased the Yunnan Parchment. Based on the private letter Gjb posted, Maurice claimed in 1956 to have purchased "charts and all copies" with some "Kidd memorabilia". No specific mention of the Yunnan Parchment and Taylor's letter arguably excludes it from the items he claimed (doubtfully) to have purchased.

 

[Cryptid1990]

The Age (newspaper) 25 July 1957

- Another source contradicting Maurice Taylor's dubious claim he purchased the maps in 1956.

On 24 July 1957, they were being offered for sale.

 

[CapnGeorge]

The Age (newspaper) 25 July 1957

- Another source contradicting Maurice Taylor's dubious claim he purchased the maps in 1956.

On 24 July 1957, they were being offered for sale.

View attachment 2223762

Doesn't matter who bought them or where they are, they're fake!

 

[Bocaj]

Doesn't matter who bought them or where they are, they're fake!

Even if - they are a important story by themself! So many wasted fortunes and lives to find something that is just drawn on a map.

Something must be in them why people are so much believe in them. It is certainly an interesting story to follow and who knows where it leads us. I don't know but I do see that there is quite an amount of people following these discussions.

 

[CapnGeorge]

Even if - they are a important story by themself! So many wasted fortunes and lives to find something that is just drawn on a map.

Something must be in them why people are so much believe in them. It is certainly an interesting story to follow and who knows where it leads us. I don't know but I do see that there is quite an amount of people following these discussions.

I have the negatives of the maps, the photographs were taken by the British Museum, they have their imprint.
We know where they lead you, - a false trail to Hon tre Lon, a simple number cipher takes you there, and it's in the China Sea, all very clever and purposely to divert you away from the real treasure island, a long way from here, This is what you should all be concentrating your time on. Nobody will ever find any treasure associated with Kidd or anyone else, based on these maps.

 

[Cryptid1990]

I have the negatives of the maps, the photographs were taken by the British Museum, they have their imprint.

It is unlikely any photographs of the maps were taken by someone working at the Map Room, British Museum. Peter Barber, formerly Head of Map Collections at the Map Library, British Library has pointed out the possibility someone acquired a British Museum stamp/ruler and took the photo(s) outside of the museum: "The label could, however, have been obtained by the photographer without the map ever having entered the [British] Museum". Considering the British Museum has no record or file of these maps or the photographs, it is probable this is what really happened. Furthermore, T. A. Corfe who was working at the Map Room in the early 1950s, noted in a letter to Rubert Furneaux (October 1974) that: "The charts were not photographed by the Museum, but an infra-red lamp was used to ascertain some of the figures which were indistinct". R. A. Skelton only ever examined one map but he did so 'off the record' hence there was no museum record or file.

 

[Bocaj]

I have the negatives of the maps, the photographs were taken by the British Museum, they have their imprint.

Do you have a letter from them confirming this?

Which maps? Key, Coral, Simple, Yunnan, Sarah1 and Sarah2?

What is your opinion about both Sarah maps. Which is copy and which original?

We know where they lead you, - a false trail to Hon tre Lon, a simple number cipher takes you there, and it's in the China Sea, all very clever and purposely to divert you away from the real treasure island, a long way from here, This is what you should all be concentrating your time on. Nobody will ever find any treasure associated with Kidd or anyone else, based on these maps.

All the China Sea seems to be a misdirection but it could also be something called the same in the 17th century, some meaning lost today (see the Indies or North/South sea etc) names have been reused a lot so could be China. Before I do not have prove of any misdirection (intentional or not) tend to assume that everything is meant as it is written.

Better to walk the path of caution too many have fallen into the trap of selectively ignoring what doesn't fit heir favorite theory.

 

[Cryptid1990]

I have the negatives of the maps, the photographs were taken by the British Museum, they have their imprint.
We know where they lead you, - a false trail to Hon tre Lon, a simple number cipher takes you there, and it's in the China Sea, all very clever and purposely to divert you away from the real treasure island, a long way from here, This is what you should all be concentrating your time on. Nobody will ever find any treasure associated with Kidd or anyone else, based on these maps.

For clarification, who do you believe drew the maps?

 

[CapnGeorge]

Do you have a letter from them confirming this?

Which maps? Key, Coral, Simple, Yunnan, Sarah1 and Sarah2?

What is your opinion about both Sarah maps. Which is copy and which original?

All the China Sea seems to be a misdirection but it could also be something called the same in the 17th century, some meaning lost today (see the Indies or North/South sea etc) names have been reused a lot so could be China. Before I do not have prove of any misdirection (intentional or not) tend to assume that everything is meant as it is written.

Better to walk the path of caution too many have fallen into the trap of selectively ignoring what doesn't fit heir favorite theory.

The misdirection to the China Seas is very real. You are obviously not aware of the bigger picture.

 

[CapnGeorge]

The misdirection to the China Seas is very real. You are obviously not aware of the bigger picture.

Somebody said - the charts/China Seas link is a load of nonsense! Prove it! as you seem to know more than us.

 

[Cryptid1990]

Somebody said - the charts/China Seas link is a load of nonsense! Prove it! as you seem to know more than us.

I think it is possible that "China Sea" was added to two of the maps after the original maps were drawn so it was a misdirection. The reason being is that a 1951 police (Metropolitan Police Laboratory) report noted "China Sea" had been written on modern pencil on one of the maps (the so-called Sarah Kidd Map) before inked over (but the other writing, on the same map: "Of me Sarah... [W or V?]" and "W. K. 1669" did not have apparent pencil marks underneath). How else can this discrepancy be explained? It is further possible that "lagoon" was latter written on the so-called Coral Island Map again by pencil and inked over as another misdirection (although this map never was forensically investigated). The maps are a hoax in the sense they have nothing whatsoever to do with Captain Kidd or the 17th/early 18th century (the Golden Age of Piracy) and were drawn in the ~1920s (albeit the hoaxer drew on centuries older parchments to try to pass-off the maps as authentic [note R. A. Skelton determined one map was drawn on the back of an 18th century will]). "W. K. 1669" is not Kidd's handwriting. However, my view is these maps do contain the site of a buried treasure, specifically the hoaxer buried. To understand the treasure hunt you have to do research on Hubert Palmer. He was not only a pirate collector but an aficionado of Robert Louis Stevenson's Treasure Island.

 

[CapnGeorge]

I think it is possible that "China Sea" was added to two of the maps after the original maps were drawn so it was a misdirection. The reason being is that a 1951 police (Metropolitan Police Laboratory) report noted "China Sea" had been written on modern pencil on one of the maps (the so-called Sarah Kidd Map) before inked over (but the other writing, on the same map: "Of me Sarah... [W or V?]" and "W. K. 1669" did not have apparent pencil marks underneath). How else can this discrepancy be explained? It is further possible that "lagoon" was latter written on the so-called Coral Island Map again by pencil and inked over as another misdirection (although this map never was forensically investigated). The maps are a hoax in the sense they have nothing whatsoever to do with Captain Kidd or the 17th/early 18th century (the Golden Age of Piracy) and were drawn in the ~1920s (albeit the hoaxer drew on centuries older parchments to try to pass-off the maps as authentic [note R. A. Skelton determined one map was drawn on the back of an 18th century will]). "W. K. 1669" is not Kidd's handwriting. However, my view is these maps do contain the site of a buried treasure, specifically the hoaxer buried. To understand the treasure hunt you have to do research on Hubert Palmer. He was not only a pirate collector but an aficionado of Robert Louis Stevenson's Treasure Island.

NO! To understand this treasure hunt you have to open your eyes! The charts undeniably lead you to an inverted map of Juan Fernandez Island (now Robinson Crusoe Island). This leads you to Bernard Keiser, this leads you to Lord Anson and what this whole saga is all about. The answers to all your questions are in 'Anson's Gold'. I am not trying to push the book, a author makes very little money these days out of one, which was written - not to make money (it still owes me) but to tell the true story for the benifit of people like yourself. Treasure Island exists, it's in the South Pacific Ocean.

 

[Cryptid1990]

NO! To understand this treasure hunt you have to open your eyes! The charts undeniably lead you to an inverted map of Juan Fernandez Island (now Robinson Crusoe Island). This leads you to Bernard Keiser, this leads you to Lord Anson and what this whole saga is all about. The answers to all your questions are in 'Anson's Gold'. I am not trying to push the book, a author makes very little money these days out of one, which was written - not to make money (it still owes me) but to tell the true story for the benifit of people like yourself. Treasure Island exists, it's in the South Pacific Ocean.

I own a copy of Anson's Gold and have read it but what you claim about the maps makes no sense. For example, you claim the hoaxer was Harold T. Wilkins, despite Wilkins had no involvement with the maps prior to 1932 (already by then, two or three of the maps were in Palmer's possession and Wilkins had no knowledge about them or the furniture pieces until he corresponded with and met Palmer). Palmer first corresponded with Wilkins by private letter and they met a week later during May 1932; Palmer had invited him to inspect the Hardy Chest (about five years after he acquired it). How do you explain this timeline, if as you claim, Wilkins made the maps?

I am not remotely convinced about one or more of the maps (the so-called Skeleton Map) being an inverted map of Juan Fernandez Island. You can rotate or flip the island-shape on the maps and identify dozens of different real islands (amateur researchers have done exactly this e.g., Albert Fagioli). Seems an arbitrary exercise and quite frankly erroneous. Your idea the maps are indirectly linked to Lord Anson is also far-fetched and not something I take serious, as is your belief in a real "Treasure Island". You do not present credible evidence in your book.

 

[Bocaj]

The misdirection to the China Seas is very real. You are obviously not aware of the bigger picture.

We all have parts of the puzzle and instead of lecturing everyone else it would help we put our pieces on the table so we truly get the 'bigger picture'.

 

[Bocaj]

I think it is possible that "China Sea" was added to two of the maps after the original maps were drawn so it was a misdirection.

That would be an explanation but there is the the Yunnan parchment mentioning the 'China Sea'...

The reason being is that a 1951 police (Metropolitan Police Laboratory) report noted "China Sea" had been written on modern pencil on one of the maps (the so-called Sarah Kidd Map) before inked over (but the other writing, on the same map: "Of me Sarah... [W or V?]" and "W. K. 1669" did not have apparent pencil marks underneath). How else can this discrepancy be explained?

It was red ink and maybe not drawn but painted with a small brush - that would explain the need for an outline.
The rest I think was normal ink (I do not have access to the originals so correct me if I am wrong)

To understand the treasure hunt you have to do research on Hubert Palmer. He was not only a pirate collector but an aficionado of Robert Louis Stevenson's Treasure Island.

Well I would be very surprised if he wasn't an aficionado - after all pirate relicts were his passion.