What happened to the Kidd-Palmer treasure maps?

[Cryptid1990]

We all have parts of the puzzle and instead of lecturing everyone else it would help we put our pieces on the table so we truly get the 'bigger picture'.

CapnGeorge's idea is a highly speculative pet theory and his claim Wilkins was the hoaxer does not make sense in terms of the chronology of the maps (who owned and had access to them). Wilkins first came on the scene in regard to some of the maps in May 1932. This was around five years after Palmer acquired the Hardy Chest and also after he acquired the Morgan Chest. His private correspondence with Palmer made it clear he had no knowledge of these furniture pieces (and the maps) prior to meeting Palmer. Yet according to CapnGeorge we are expected to believe Wilkins drew all the maps and was the hoaxer. What he next claims, is even more nonsensical - Wilkins knew of a real treasure on an island having accessed a "Lord Anson file" in the British Museum (what evidence is there for this? none...) but set out to deceive people by pointing treasure hunters in the wrong direction and a wild goose chase by making the maps and pretending they were authentic pirate charts. To be blunt, book reviews of Anson's Gold are pretty awful.

 

[CapnGeorge]

We all have parts of the puzzle and instead of lecturing everyone else it would help we put our pieces on the table so we truly get the 'bigger picture'.

Read 'Anson's Gold', the bigger picture is laid out for you.

 

[CapnGeorge]

CapnGeorge's idea is a highly speculative pet theory and his claim Wilkins was the hoaxer does not make sense in terms of the chronology of the maps (who owned and had access to them). Wilkins first came on the scene in regard to some of the maps in May 1932. This was around five years after Palmer acquired the Hardy Chest and also after he acquired the Morgan Chest. His private correspondence with Palmer made it clear he had no knowledge of these furniture pieces (and the maps) prior to meeting Palmer. Yet according to CapnGeorge we are expected to believe Wilkins drew all the maps and was the hoaxer. What he next claims, is even more nonsensical - Wilkins knew of a real treasure on an island having accessed a "Lord Anson file" in the British Museum (what evidence is there for this? none...) but set out to deceive people by pointing treasure hunters in the wrong direction and a wild goose chase by making the maps and pretending they were authentic pirate charts. To be blunt, book reviews of Anson's Gold are pretty awful.

Kind of you to point out reviews are 'pretty awful'. are you trying to get backing for your own negative conclusions? The one review smacks of jealousy and not being able to grasp what is really going on. The treasure trail is complex and needs some intelligence which is probably why a lot do not understand it. I wonder why you did not mention the reply pointing out all the undeniable evidence leading to just one location. Perhaps it suits you not to mention it because you can't follow it either. The figures/letters/codes/ciphers/star codes etc. are what they are. I didn't make them up. From different sources - charts/documents/books etc, when you know the key to unlocking the codes and numbers and how to do the maths, the answer is always the latitude and longitude to a trinity group of atolls (3). The perpetrator didn't make it easy. Can't you understand why nobody has found any treasure of Kidd's based on these maps. I am continually shaking my head in disbelief at letters/messages such as yours, so much time wasted, can't see what is staring you in the face. Wilkins was 'in' on it from the very beginning, before he published his 1935 CKSI book. He knew about Anson's secret expedition, which by the way, is why nobody knows about Cornelius Webb and the Unicorn, it was secret! Two little items just for starters: 1/ The rubbish Wilkins chart on the inside covers of his book CKSI, find 'Lat. dmd.' Nobody knew what that was until my decoding of the Shepherds Monument cipher, second line D---M, or Lat 19. - latitude of the Trinity group of atolls.(coded longitude 138 is in the first line) and 2/ The KEY chart, so back to the beginning, LAT 9.16, LONG 31.30. A simple key, put '1' in front giving Lat 19.16, Long 131.30, add the Cadiz meridian of 6.30 (a Spanish treasure, only Wilkins knew this) and you get 138. So there we have it again;19 and 138, the coordinates of the Pinaki group of atolls. A lot of other decodings give the same answer. Now, could you please explain to me and all our other listeners why this is all rubbish and you know the answer? Perhaps in the meantime, you would like to get somebody to review this!!

 

[Bocaj]

Read 'Anson's Gold', the bigger picture is laid out for you.

I am only interested in the Kidd maps as far as they help to discover Avery's treasure. 'W.K.'" is mentioned in one of the original 'Avery the Pirate' letters and that's the clue I follow. Maybe just coincidence but that's as far as my personal interest goes. Anson is far off that road and not of interest to me but if I get one day my hand on a copy I will certainly have a look...

In any case it would be nice to go back to the original topic and that's what happened to the maps and not were they came from!!!

 

[Cryptid1990]

Wilkins was 'in' on it from the very beginning, before he published his 1935 CKSI book... Now, could you please explain to me and all our other listeners why this is all rubbish and you know the answer? Perhaps in the meantime, you would like to get somebody to review this!!

Palmer's private letters to Wilkins (see gjb's books) and Wilkins' unpublished manuscripts make clear Wilkins was not in on the hoax, as does the timeline or sequence of events that can be reconstructed from his 1935 [CKSI] book and numerous articles. It makes no sense "Wilkins was in on it from the very beginning" when we know from his private letters and published writings that he had no knowledge of the so-called Kidd-Palmer maps until 1932, when he first met Palmer. So that is why what you are saying is certainly wrong. Furthermore, Wilkins believed the maps were authentic and owned by Captain Kidd or his shipmates. He did not believe the maps were a 20th century hoax.

The reviewer of your book I linked to even touched upon this:

This is, of course, hyper-selective wishful thinking (as opposed to anything that might approach critical evaluation, or indeed critical thought). What makes this even clearer is Geoff Bath’s very interesting series of books, for which Geoff managed to uncover a whole lot of Wilkins’ correspondence. In my opinion, Bath offered up a picture of Wilkins that was radically different from (and, I believe, a lot more accurate and evidentially-grounded) than the one in either of Edmunds’ books.

Of course, Wilkins was wrong about the maps being authentic but he was not the hoaxer. The evidence points to Arthur Hill-Cutler being involved in the hoax: (a) he sold all the furniture pieces and maps (plus the Yunnan Parchment) to Palmer (do you really think this was a coincidence? [all maps appearing in the same antique shop...]) and (b) he sold dozens, if not hundreds of items with the fabricated 'Pamela Hardy' provenance (including the Hardy Chest and Lord Nelson dubious/fake items, many of which are now stored in collections at the National Maritime Museum) but I have yet to determine if Palmer was involved in the hoax. Concerning your claims of "unlocking the codes and numbers", there are many ways of interpreting the maps if you go down this route (see for example, Gjb's threads in this forum section, Albert Fagioli's ideas, etc). I do not have interest in doing this, at least not at this stage but even if I did, I would not make far-fetched claims of exotic treasure locations ("trinity group of atolls") nor do I think the maps have anything to do with Oak Island (contra Gjb). I believe the location of the treasure (the hoaxer buried) is local and in England but I have not yet published my research and the cumulative evidence.

 

[Cryptid1990]

In any case it would be nice to go back to the original topic and that's what happened to the maps and not were they came from!!!

I agree. If anyone wants to further debate ideas about the maps (such as treasure locations) you can do so in the other thread.

 

[CapnGeorge]

I am only interested in the Kidd maps as far as they help to discover Avery's treasure. 'W.K.'" is mentioned in one of the original 'Avery the Pirate' letters and that's the clue I follow. Maybe just coincidence but that's as far as my personal interest goes. Anson is far off that road and not of interest to me but if I get one day my hand on a copy I will certainly have a look...

In any case it would be nice to go back to the original topic and that's what happened to the maps and not were they came from!!!

you will find nothing to do with Avery (or Kidd) in the maps. They are the starting point of a trail that leads to the South Pacific Ocean. Whilst a modern-day creation, nevertheless, the perpetrator included numeric clues to the ultimate goal.

 

[Bocaj]

you will find nothing to do with Avery (or Kidd) in the maps. They are the starting point of a trail that leads to the South Pacific Ocean. Whilst a modern-day creation, nevertheless, the perpetrator included numeric clues to the ultimate goal.

It could very well be a modern creation but it certainly took some details like "W.K." and the treasure's location description etc from the Avery letter. To many coincidences.

Also I am not convinced of your numeric clues as at least two of them are clearly wrong see:

The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

The Metropolitan Police Laboratory New Scotland Yard London 9th August, 1951 The words 'China Sea' and the diagram indicating the points of the compass in red have obviously been inked in over pencil marks. In modern black lead (i.e. graphite) pencils clay is incorporated in the lead it would...

www.treasurenet.com

Please continue there, I posted the full reply there

 

[CapnGeorge]

Let me try and help those of you puzzled about the possibility the charts are for eg - copies of copies/not original.
I have the negatives photographed by the British Museum. The charts were owned by Hubert Palmer, so only he could have commissioned the photography. The charts in my books are copies of these negatives.
1/ The Bureau Chart; The original had become discoloured with age and was therefore not suitable for direct photographic reproduction. The photograph was taken of an accurate tracing - same scale as the original - and made directly from the original map.
2/ The Skull Chest Chart; Again, discoloured with age and not easily legible. It was photographed, enlarged X2 then traced, the accuracy verified by reference to the original and to enlarged photographs thereof taken under infra-red and ultra-violet light. In other words, what you see is an accurate photographic reproduction, which is an accurate tracing of the original, magnification X2, reproduced to actual size in my books.
3/ The Key Chart; Photographic process exactly as for the Skull Chest Chart. The accompanying notes say 'The incomplete reading of the longitude is uncertain'. The writing in the margins is partially illegible.
So the negatives for 2/ and 3/ are X2 actual size.
Hopes this helps the students of the charts.

 

[Bocaj]

Let me try and help those of you puzzled about the possibility the charts are for eg - copies of copies/not original.
I have the negatives photographed by the British Museum. The charts were owned by Hubert Palmer, so only he could have commissioned the photography. The charts in my books are copies of these negatives.
1/ The Bureau Chart; The original had become discoloured with age and was therefore not suitable for direct photographic reproduction. The photograph was taken of an accurate tracing - same scale as the original - and made directly from the original map.
2/ The Skull Chest Chart; Again, discoloured with age and not easily legible. It was photographed, enlarged X2 then traced, the accuracy verified by reference to the original and to enlarged photographs thereof taken under infra-red and ultra-violet light. In other words, what you see is an accurate photographic reproduction, which is an accurate tracing of the original, magnification X2, reproduced to actual size in my books.
3/ The Key Chart; Photographic process exactly as for the Skull Chest Chart. The accompanying notes say 'The incomplete reading of the longitude is uncertain'. The writing in the margins is partially illegible.
So the negatives for 2/ and 3/ are X2 actual size.
Hopes this helps the students of the charts.

If would be extremely helpful if you could digitize (hires/16bit per color channel scan) the original negatives and upload them here. Direct from the negatives - the only way to have any means of possible verification on the question of their authenticity, age etc.

Also any from of documentation that proves those have been taken by the British Museum would by helpful as this has been denied from their side.

 

[CapnGeorge]

If would be extremely helpful if you could digitize (hires/16bit per color channel scan) the original negatives and upload them here. Direct from the negatives - the only way to have any means of possible verification on the question of their authenticity, age etc.

Also any from of documentation that proves those have been taken by the British Museum would by helpful as this has been denied from their side.

I've done my bit over many years and have another life, believe it or not. I would like to get on with my other projects and will not waste any more time on people who want to rubbish everything I say or do and can't be bothered to do their own in-depth research. so the negatives stay as they are. All the info you require re the charts/treasure I have put in one volume to help you all (Anson's Gold) many many years of research is all there, put together to tell the untold story and present to you previously unknown facts/codes and figures. Please disregard if you find it useless information. I really am not bothered because ultimately, the solving of the Shepherds Monument Cipher proved I was on the right track. If you are all on a different track, I'll be very happy for you when you show the world the treasure. By the way, why do you think nobody has come up with any Kidd treasure based on these charts?? Have a good day and goodbye, no need for any thanks!!

 

[Bocaj]

I've done my bit over many years and have another life, believe it or not. I would like to get on with my other projects and will not waste any more time on people who want to rubbish everything I say or do and can't be bothered to do their own in-depth research. so the negatives stay as they are. All the info you require re the charts/treasure I have put in one volume to help you all (Anson's Gold) many many years of research is all there, put together to tell the untold story and present to you previously unknown facts/codes and figures. Please disregard if you find it useless information. I really am not bothered because ultimately, the solving of the Shepherds Monument Cipher proved I was on the right track. If you are all on a different track, I'll be very happy for you when you show the world the treasure. By the way, why do you think nobody has come up with any Kidd treasure based on these charts?? Have a good day and goodbye, no need for any thanks!!

You are the one who insists that they are authentic copies of Palmer's maps made by the British Museum and I think it is a valid request to ask you to see the negatives.

 

[Cryptid1990]

I've done my bit over many years and have another life, believe it or not. I would like to get on with my other projects and will not waste any more time on people who want to rubbish everything I say or do and can't be bothered to do their own in-depth research. so the negatives stay as they are. All the info you require re the charts/treasure I have put in one volume to help you all (Anson's Gold) many many years of research is all there, put together to tell the untold story and present to you previously unknown facts/codes and figures. Please disregard if you find it useless information. I really am not bothered because ultimately, the solving of the Shepherds Monument Cipher proved I was on the right track. If you are all on a different track, I'll be very happy for you when you show the world the treasure. By the way, why do you think nobody has come up with any Kidd treasure based on these charts?? Have a good day and goodbye, no need for any thanks!!

You never did in-depth research on the provenance of the maps (who owned and sold them, the sequence of when Hubert Palmer acquired them, the general timeline, etc [e.g., you incorrectly stated the bureau was first acquired by Palmer when the Hardy Chest was and there are many more errors in your books]), nor did you do much, if any, research on Hubert Palmer and Arthur Hill-Cutler. You are not going to get close to knowing who the hoaxer was (it was not Wilkins) or solving the maps if you do not look extensively into the lives of Cutler/Palmer.

 

[Bocaj]

Is there any documentation of those claims that the charts were copied by accurate tracing? We do not know anything for sure it seems...

The Sarah W map that was examined was an original or a traced copy? Those maps that were auctioned? How do we know?

 

[CapnGeorge]

You never did in-depth research on the provenance of the maps (who owned and sold them, the sequence of when Hubert Palmer acquired them, the general timeline, etc [e.g., you incorrectly stated the bureau was first acquired by Palmer when the Hardy Chest was and there are many more errors in your books]), nor did you do much, if any, research on Hubert Palmer and Arthur Hill-Cutler. You are not going to get close to knowing who the hoaxer was (it was not Wilkins) or solving the maps if you do not look extensively into the lives of Cutler/Palmer.

Not interested, my job was to solve the charts. You're so clever, show us the solution! My work, pre 1996 was based on information available to me then, based on - and supplied by Anthony Howlet, a barrister (he's not going to make it up!). He wrote the original article in the Wide World magazine (1958) that sparked it all off for me. He consulted Mrs Dick and said 'I had to start from scratch and check everything with the greatest care.' - a barrister would. Shame he's not with us anymore, you could challenge him face to face and tell him he didn't know what he was talking about. Most agree who the hoaxer was, it is obvious to those with common sense and intellectual logic, By the way, the maps were solved years ago. If you can't follow the figures and maths, you stand no chance. The treasure - if it is still there - lies on an atoll, and if you can't see/follow the trail, stop wasting your time, - as you are mine. Go and bury your head in letters/docs of Palmer/Cutler/Skelton and Aunty Mary etc. if that's your thing. Who cares? it doesn't alter what's on the hoax charts! Now, please leave me alone. Do you understand that request, or is it too cryptic? As in a previous message, I am not getting involved anymore.

 

[CapnGeorge]

Is there any documentation of those claims that the charts were copied by accurate tracing? We do not know anything for sure it seems...

The Sarah W map that was examined was an original or a traced copy? Those maps that were auctioned? How do we know?

The confirming documentation is on/part of the negatives

 

[CapnGeorge]

You are the one who insists that they are authentic copies of Palmer's maps made by the British Museum and I think it is a valid request to ask you to see the negatives.

Please point out where I said 'I insist they are copies.....' Why do you make things up? For your and others' benefit, I merely explained what I had. Wish I hadn't bothered now. If you want to see the negatives, you would have to come to my house! If you want to see what they reproduce, look in my books. They're not going to change!! Now, second request, please leave me to get on with my life.

 

[Bocaj]

The confirming documentation is on/part of the negatives

You mean the rulers on the map?

This is not a sufficient prove without any documents proving communication with the British Museum. Especially when they deny anything but that Skelton examined a single of those charts in private. I am very skeptic that he would add an official ruler to those copies under those circumstances.
Also as far as I know you claim that Wilkins and Skelton were part of that hoax - were is the evidence for this claim?

Please point out where I said 'I insist they are copies.....' Why do you make things up?

I understood the text below as claiming you have copies done by tracing the originals and certified by the British Museum

I have the negatives photographed by the British Museum. The charts were owned by Hubert Palmer, so only he could have commissioned the photography. The charts in my books are copies of these negatives.

You claim those copies are done by tracing the originals by the BM. I just ask prove in form of scans of the negatives so they can be analyzed by professionals, a print in a book is insufficient - that's all.

For your and others' benefit, I merely explained what I had. Wish I hadn't bothered now. If you want to see the negatives, you would have to come to my house! If you want to see what they reproduce, look in my books. They're not going to change!! Now, second request, please leave me to get on with my life.

As is your privilege - only my one is to ask for proves of your claims. Those claims have been contradicted (see previous posts in the forum) by the British Museum.

I didn't force you to come here and make those claims - in general you tend to come here make claims and when challenged or asked for proves you slam the door in the poster's face instead of responding to our arguments.

 

[Cryptid1990]

Not interested, my job was to solve the charts. You're so clever, show us the solution! My work, pre 1996 was based on information available to me then, based on - and supplied by Anthony Howlet, a barrister (he's not going to make it up!). He wrote the original article in the Wide World magazine (1958) that sparked it all off for me. He consulted Mrs Dick and said 'I had to start from scratch and check everything with the greatest care.' - a barrister would. Shame he's not with us anymore, you could challenge him face to face and tell him he didn't know what he was talking about. Most agree who the hoaxer was, it is obvious to those with common sense and intellectual logic, By the way, the maps were solved years ago. If you can't follow the figures and maths, you stand no chance. The treasure - if it is still there - lies on an atoll, and if you can't see/follow the trail, stop wasting your time, - as you are mine. Go and bury your head in letters/docs of Palmer/Cutler/Skelton and Aunty Mary etc. if that's your thing. Who cares? it doesn't alter what's on the hoax charts! Now, please leave me alone. Do you understand that request, or is it too cryptic? As in a previous message, I am not getting involved anymore.

If you have no further interest in the maps and do not want to further get involved, would you consider selling the items you own? I will offer to buy any letters you have from Howlett, or anything else of relevance, any photographs, etc. I obviously deny you have solved the maps but will agree to disagree. As for my own solution to the maps, I have more investigative research to do before I publish an article.

 

[Crow]

Some how I would not be holding my breath.


Crow