Who owns the treasure you find?

RBrown · Aug 3, 2013

I am asking about three different types of finds: 1. Lode Gold Veins (hard rock mines), 2. Refined gold (like gold bars) caches, and 3. Jesuit caches of treasure. I am not talking about finding coins or old artifacts or anything under the water.

In these three types of search areas: 1. Open BLM lands, 2. Wilderness areas, and 3. Private lands.

I have read that any treasure of any kind found in a Wilderness area belongs to the US Government and they don't pay finder fees (but if you quickly turn over your find to them they may not put you in jail).

I have also read where all Jesuit treasure belongs to the Catholic Church and the Church doesn't pay finder fees either (but they may say a prayer for you).

I heard on the news last week where a very valuable sword from Iraq was being auctioned in the NE US and the US Marshalls showed up in the middle of the auction and confiscated the sword as a war relic.

It almost sounds like it is becoming illegal to openly sell, or publically display, any treasure you may find.

Does anyone know what the laws are regarding selling/displaying treasure finds in Arizona?

Big Bad John · Aug 3, 2013

As Karl used to write and say: Keep your big mouth shut. Talk to a lawyer in the state that you want to treasure hunt. I am from Stratford, Connecticut.

Lady Pirate · Aug 3, 2013

Loose lips....sink ships
And that's no joke

Tom_in_CA · Aug 3, 2013

Rbrown, you've given lots of different types land ownership, and lots of different type example finds. Just too many different facets/options to cover in a simple post-answer. You'd have to be specfic and hone down an individual type land entity. Well, I know one of examples was "BLM", I suppose someone could take a crack at that. But not sure what you meant be "wilderness areas".

But ....... let's forget for a moment the type public land. Let's just say ANY public land, of ANY venue or type. Here's my thoughts on this: If you find a gold bar (as in your example), I bet that you can ALWAYS find a govt. bureaucrat to say "you can't keep that". I mean, for example: in my city, I can go to the old downtown park, any day of the week, and ply the turf for silver. And I've done so there for 35 yrs. and never had a problem. And in that time, sometimes gotten a nice token, or key-date silver coin, etc... No one ever cares, presuming I'm not being a nuisance, leaving holes, or whatever. HOWEVER , let's say I found a holy-grail 1894 s dime (worth millions of dollars). Now, imagine that if I walked in to city hall here in my city, and showed it to the city attorney, the mayor, the city manager, etc... And I tell them:

"hi, I found this in your park. It's worth several million $. Can I keep it for my own fun and enjoyment to sell on ebay for my own enrichment? Or does it belong to the city coffers, since it was found on city land?".

What do you think the city is going to tell me? OF COURSE they're going to say I can't keep it. Even though, for 35 years, I've plied this park, as have scores of others, and no one's ever cared. So what changed then, that we "kept" all our silver coins, gold rings from the sandbox, etc...? Only the value, and that we went in making ourselves a big bullseye in need of someone else's sanction.

In all my years of this, I have never had anyone riffle through my apron, checking dates on coins. So if you ask me, the "gold bar" thing, etc.... , why would I change and start asking people "can I keep it?"

The mel fisher thing was totally different. I mean, sure, on the scale of thing he was into, and the # of personell and staff on that, there's simply no way to treat that caliber of excavation and work on a "tame hobbyist level". Thus, sure, you'll see all the lawyers and archies come out with their panties in a wad. And sure, they'll start going into the minutia about "who owns what", etc... But no, I would not start down the road of thinking/wondering who gets our hobbyist level coins and individual coins. You can certainly go parade your finds to deskbound bureaucrats if you want, but ..... then why are you even into this hobby, to begin with?

Charlie P. (NY) · Aug 3, 2013

SSS = "Shoot, shovel, shut-up"

Our variation may be:

DDD = "Detect, Dig, Dummy-up"

But if you start showing up with gold bars at your local gold buyer someone will want to know how you came by them.

Silver Searcher · Aug 4, 2013

I will tell you who owns the treasure I find.....Me.

SS

rock · Aug 4, 2013

There was a big issue in Florida this yr about NA Indian artifacts. They have since closed quite a few artifact sites on the net due to this type of thing and have put some in jail for selling the "stolen" artifacts and then selling them for personal gain. Thats what they say anyway. I dont believe some of the ones convicted actually even knew they were looted on Govt land. How can anyone know if a artifact or a find was found yrs before or recent? The laws change every yr it seems. How can you get convicted of a crime you didnt even know happened? So yeah it happens.

RBrown · Aug 4, 2013

Rock,

One little know law is: Ignorance of the law is no excuse. So if you broke a law you knew nothing about you are still guilty and even though you thought you were not doing anything wrong all it will do is get you the lesser of the fines or the shorter sentence nothing else.

I know in all Wilderness areas you are allowed to prospect but not mine. You are allowed to keep an armful of samples (not more than one could easily carry by themselves - you could put it on your donkey to carry it out as long as it was just one armful and no more). But if you find a cache of say gold bars you may be able to carry one out as a "sample" but the rest would belong to the US Government. If you didn't tell them you found a cache of gold and decided to go back and get a second sample that would push you over the edge to being illegal and if you were caught doing this it would be considered to be with intent and you would probably get prison time.

I didn't mention State Trust Land in my post but for those of you who aren't familiar with it let me tell you from experience you can't even walk on it without a permit or you could get a big fine. If you do something stupid like carry a metal detector in the trunk of your car (with the batteries out of it) and you have a $20 to drive across State Trust Land so you can legally cross it and for some reason a policemen stops you (all policemen state local and federal have authority to arrest you on State Trust Land) and finds the metal detector in the trunk your metal detector, car and you are gone. If the batteries are out the judge probably won't put you in jail but you will never see the metal detector again and you may need to get a lawyer and spend thousands to get your car back. This would be a worse case but it is entirely in their jurisdiction to do this.

Does anyone know who owns any Jesuit treasure found on Open BLM land. I have read it still belongs to the Church but I can't find any laws stating this. About anything you find on Open BLM land is yours (about everything - there are always exceptions).

DentonSandy · Aug 4, 2013

I say Keep the money and run!

ROFLMAO.......any one here work for the IRS?

Joe hunter · Aug 4, 2013

The church/gov do not need it .If you choose to be morally correct instead of legally correct sell your finds and donate the money to local charity.

As for me I hunt where I can keep the fruits of my labor.

GMD52 · Aug 4, 2013

I would make one observation. You seem to have already done the research on the lands you listed, and still want to have justification for searching on them, if you have a question, either don't go there, or don't make it an issue, and do what you have to do and keep it to yourself.

ToastedWheatie · Aug 4, 2013

Tom_in_CA said:
But ....... let's forget for a moment the type public land. Let's just say ANY public land, of ANY venue or type. Here's my thoughts on this: If you find a gold bar (as in your example), I bet that you can ALWAYS find a govt. bureaucrat to say "you can't keep that". I mean, for example: in my city, I can go to the old downtown park, any day of the week, and ply the turf for silver. And I've done so there for 35 yrs. and never had a problem. And in that time, sometimes gotten a nice token, or key-date silver coin, etc... No one ever cares, presuming I'm not being a nuisance, leaving holes, or whatever. HOWEVER , let's say I found a holy-grail 1894 s dime (worth millions of dollars). Now, imagine that if I walked in to city hall here in my city, and showed it to the city attorney, the mayor, the city manager, etc... And I tell them:

"hi, I found this in your park. It's worth several million $. Can I keep it for my own fun and enjoyment to sell on ebay for my own enrichment? Or does it belong to the city coffers, since it was found on city land?".

What do you think the city is going to tell me? OF COURSE they're going to say I can't keep it. Even though, for 35 years, I've plied this park, as have scores of others, and no one's ever cared. So what changed then, that we "kept" all our silver coins, gold rings from the sandbox, etc...? Only the value, and that we went in making ourselves a big bullseye in need of someone else's sanction.

In all my years of this, I have never had anyone riffle through my apron, checking dates on coins. So if you ask me, the "gold bar" thing, etc.... , why would I change and start asking people "can I keep it?"

?

There is no more unowned land in this country. "Public" land is owned by the taxpayers of that entity. If the gov/taxpayers don't care if you find a quarter, but care if you find a cache, that makes perfect sense.

Very similar to the deals i make with homeowners of property I detect. " If i find treasure, we split 50/50. If I find a wheat penny, it's mine". Your local parks people, as well as mine, have this same unofficial policy. You technically cannot take anything that doesn't belong to you, from anyone, without permission. they just don't care about the small stuff.

That applies to BLM, Park service, or private land. If by "wilderness" you mean land with trees, someone owns it. Just because it's in the middle of nowhere, doesn't mean someone doesn't own it.

I have 4 acres in semi rural area. If someone wondered through my woods, i wouldn't care. If they walked through, found a nickel on the surface and kept it, i wouldn't care. But if they dug a hole and took a cache without my permission, I'd be getting it back and they would get ZERO. No different than if the wondered into my garage and "found" tools.

That's what the gov't, that owns the property would do. So it's the moral delema. If detecting on property without explicit permission, and find valuables, the owner of that property owns the item you took. So, do you report it? If gov't owned, your taking from the taxpayer. If private owned, your taking from the homeowner.

This site cannot condone detecting without permission (I think I read that in a Stickie somewhere), so I can't say that on taxpayer owned land, i'd say nothing. On private? Since i would only be there without permission if it was that remote, unknown owners kinda thing, I couldn't say i wouldn't report that either.

Dreadnox · Aug 4, 2013

My dream gold find is mine alone, well and my wifes too,,, I guess.

It was a cold day out on the State owned game reserve and I was just checking for change around an old firing range when I had a very strong hit on my MD I found buried and old wells fargo stage coach strong box with the lock rusted away to nothing. With noone in sight I hit the lock with my shovel and proceeded to open it to find 16 full 40 lb bars of pure confederate gold inside. Well, I was scared to death, not knowing wether it was legal to keep or if I should turn it in to some one or what to do I covered it back up and went home. After a couple of day thinking and decided I found it I was going to keep it I returned one night and loaded the gold in my trunk. I got home and cleaned the 16 bars in the garage and told my wife. She asked what to do with it and Ihad figured if I turn it in the state federal and county would all want a cut. So I created a plan, I went to town and purchased a tourch and a tree, went home melted the gold by hand with the tourch into some very small maybe 1/8 lb odd shaped chunks and moved it to the basement in boxes for safe keeping. I then proceeded to dig a whole in my back yard to plant the new tree and gess what I found? Thats right I hit gold on my property in my back yard so now if we need money I grab a couple of chunks and go to town and sell it. I was once asked where I was getting the gold and told the agent I had a gold mine on private property that I owned.
Now, is any of this true

Only in my wildest dreams but if I found it its mine period and its my choice what I do with it at that point. If it were a personal item and I could find the owner, yes I would do so and return any item I had found but in this situation, not a chance any authorities would ever be able to get any of it. Heck I even figured to drop a couple of chunks in the bottom of the existing tree hole so if ever questioned I could invite the news out and on camera take a shovel full out with a chunk or two and say see how well it produces. LOLOL Not sure if this would work but I feel like the feds and locals have sqwandered our taxes for years I am not willingly going to give them any more. Wow that was a fun fantasty anyways LOL Hope you guys enjoyed it.

RBrown · Aug 4, 2013

Dreadnox,

Yes, I really enjoyed your fantasy.

I had a similar thought myself.

However, I was wondering if anyone knew of any applicable laws.

Tidajo,

By Wilderness area I meant the Superstition Wilderness area that was closed down to mining in 1984. This is the favorite Lost Dutchman Mine area and a lesser known lose Jesuit treasure hidden in 1767 in three caches in the Superstitions.

I don't have any problems making a deal with a private owner but on Open BLM land is another thing, and of course finding anything in the Superstitions is a NO-NO.

I was hoping Terry Solomon might add his legal expertise into this thread.

I can remember in the mid 1980s a small team of prospectors found 82 pounds of small gold bars. They ended up selling them secretly to an investor in the NW US.

Another problem today is two years ago the Federal Government started keeping tags on ALL people in the US who buys and sells raw gold in any quantity over one gram. If you are a registered gold dealer, it is a Federal crime, under Title 18, not to report someone who buys or sells gold to or from you. This, like the $10,000 cash law, is also secret and like the banks they can't tell you they are reporting you to the Feds. Now, if you have a big find when you sell it the Government is immediately informed of your name, address and SS # if they know it.

If you make a big find and sell it 'under the table' like the 82 pounds was and they do anything other than hold it then it could still come back and bite you if they ever get questioned by the Feds as to how they acquired so much gold. Knowing all of this leads me back to Dreadnox's fantasy which seems to plug most of the holes. The problem here is it may not be legally right.

I am trying to find out what the actual law is not the laws the various authorities make up to try to steal your find from you. I would like to know my options.

I am not so sure Big Bad Johns suggestion about talking to a lawyer is a very wise thing to do. If they think you have a load of gold bars they are going to see if there is any way they can get some of it for themselves. As you may suspect I have met some very devious lawyers.

While finding the Degrazia paintings may be straight forward (assuming they are not in the Wilderness area) and could be sold at public auction but gold is a completely different matter even though Arizona has adopted a sort of gold standard (which means its legal to pay your bills with gold if the merchant will take it). I thought everybody took gold...

Finding treasure caches is not cheap or easy and to spend an extreme amount of money and then have any ownership become questionable... Ron ran into this sort of thing when he got a permit to mine in the Superstitions a few years ago.

coinbug · Aug 4, 2013

If you want some comfort before you undertake a costly hunt, figure out what exactly you propose to search for and where, and then, before you spend the money, hire a lawyer to provide you with an opinion as to ownership and so on.

For example, if you were digging up a steamboat in a buried river channel under a privately owned farm in Missouri, you could get a legal opinion concerning ownership before you spent any money.

If you narrow your parameters sufficiently that would apply pretty much anywhere, including Arizona, although some opinions will necessarily be hedged.

Lawyers will be the only thing that stand between you and Leviathan, if you do strike it lucky, so you may wish to reconsider your attitude towards them.

Lady Pirate · Aug 4, 2013

As I said "Loose Lips, Sink Ships"
The more people that you tell: what, when and how.... the more eyes you have upon you.
We all can dream of finding the mother lode. I would like to think that most people have at least half of a brain and not go bragging all over. Use that brain and find a way to keep your treasure. Brains over beauty or brawn. You decide.

BosnMate · Aug 4, 2013

Back in the mid 60's there was some road construction in Nevada. The construction outfit cut into the roots of a cottonwood tree. Later some kids were playing there, and found something like $30,000 in face value gold coin. I could be all wet on the amount, but that sticks in my mind even though my memory isn't all that good anymore. This money was turned into authorities, ownership couldn't be determined and the coins were returned to the kids. True story. Since then, Insurance companies and relatives come out of the wood work. Now lets get hypothetical, Jesse James robbed a bank, the money was insured, and the insurance paid off, so the bank got it's money. Jesse hid the money under a cottonwood tree. During the next hundred plus years the insurance company sold several times, and none of the new companies even had knowledge of the original loss. Kids find Jesse's hidden horde. Does the insurance company that now owns the original company have any claim to the money? You know the finders are going to have to go to court and defend the find because if the company gets any idea they might have a claim, they will be in court with hands out. There is a museum that is still in business, but some of the best stuff that was on display is not there now, and I think it's because of the greed of government and church. They had silver bars on display that were found in Arizona, and were identified as Jesuit, along with some other found treasure. Non of that is on display now, and asking only gets a blank stare, don't know what you are talking about. Personally, shoot, shovel, and shut up.

Mekong Mike · Aug 4, 2013

The really good stuff does not get posted online.

coinbug · Aug 4, 2013

There's a difference between shutting up when you find something, and getting legal advice before you spend money in a hunt.

You can get legal advice at any stage of your treasure hunt, and ,subject to certain very narrow exceptions it will be covered by lawyer client privilege, which means your lawyer has to keep your communications secret.