What ya think?

[rock]

Ive been thinking on this for a while now. Why would there be so many tools like scrapers and knifes in one spot? I am leaning towards these type of spots to be a kill spot. Which means they killed a animal and then cleaned it for process and then carried it back to camp to eat. Well I have found spots with just tools and maybe 1 or 2 damaged points in the general area. My question is this.......do you think they just cleaned the animal and left their tools in the kill spot or do you believe they carried all of their tools with them back to camp? I am thinking they could make tools fast and just left them and made more later as needed. I am sure they had some favorites and hung onto them. Here are some I have found in the same spot. Each pic is a different spot. Id like to hear some theories on this as to what everyone has to say.

 

[GatorBoy]

"You want to hint that what I say is unintelligent"

Heck, now that I see you have removed material in a sorry attempt to hide your ignorance, you ol "archie" ;-), let me be the hundred and somethingth to say it, I surely can't be anywhere near the first.

Yessir, you are a piece of work, and the only guy I have met that removes text in an attempt to make someone else look foolish.

see ya later gater, maybe.

I removed nothing buddy.
The moderators did. I wish it stayed.
I made no attempt to make anyone look foolish..though you made several... I simply provided information...if feeling foolish is what has happened as the result of all the wonderfully informative posts you've made on this subject I'm sorry about that.

 

[quito]

I removed nothing buddy.
The moderators did. I wish it stayed.
I made no attempt to make anyone look foolish..though you made several... I simply provided information...if feeling foolish is what has happened as the result of all the wonderfully informative posts you've made on this subject I'm sorry about that.

I wonder why they removed some of your posts? I didn't see where you were breaking rules, unless insinuating you may be an "archie" to me in one of them wasn't cool in their eyes. Are you sure you didn't hit delete post a couple times?

 

[Harry Pristis]

How old are the points you have found at that site rock?
...
There is endless information out there the back up exactly what I'm saying... yet several on this thread want to type a whole lot with nothing offered to back up their claims other than statements like "it's my guess" ...

I see. So you're saying that your unsupported assertions are valid, but the assertions of others here are worthless. Interesting.

How about giving us your citations for your arguments. Provide us some hyperlinks that will convince us that your notions are valid.

 

[GatorBoy]

I wonder why they removed some of your posts? I didn't see where you were breaking rules, unless insinuating you may be an "archie" to me in one of them wasn't cool in their eyes. Are you sure you didn't hit delete post a couple times?

Positive

 

[GatorBoy]

I see. So you're saying that your unsupported assertions are valid, but the assertions of others here are worthless. Interesting.

How about giving us your citations for your arguments. Provide us some hyperlinks that will convince us that your notions are valid.

Harry.. just search "soil creep/artifacts" there will be plenty for you to read and learn about.

 

[quito]

Originally Posted by quito
I wonder why they removed some of your posts? I didn't see where you were breaking rules, unless insinuating you may be an "archie" to me in one of them wasn't cool in their eyes. Are you sure you didn't hit delete post a couple times?


gatorboy "Positive "

Now you would think with all that valuable archieological information you provided, not to mention your personal observations, and informative commentaries, your posts would have been allowed to stay....... Or do you think it's the archie impersonation you tried to pull on me?

Anyone else getting a whiff of fish?

 

[GatorBoy]

Ask them quito.
Or are you out of gas.
All I said was.." how do you know you're not talking to an archie now".
I said it again.. you read it the first time.. read it again.
You're adding nothing to the discussion.
Do you have anything constructive to add?

 

[Gold Maven]

Does it really matter if artifacts moved a foot, or 10 feet? I'm just glad they are where I can find them.

I believe things are relatively close to where they were deposited. I found a beautiful stemmed Archaic point under a rock in a rock shelter once, and I believe it was exactly where it was hidden thousands of years ago. Other than that one, it's hard to say how far they have moved, but once they are in my collection, they are done moving.

 

[quito]

Ask them quito.
Or are you out of gas.
All I said was.." how do you know you're not talking to an archie now".
I said it again.. you read it the first time.. read it again.
You're adding nothing to the discussion.

LOL You DON'T want to know how I knew you weren't an archie. But I'm glad I had the opportunity to get the correct spelling of it to you.

Enough about you, back to the discussion, and since you asked. I say, not knowing anything about the site that rocks rocks are/were scattered about an area just slightly larger than the original area they occupied when they were left there. They haven't moved very far.

How far do you think they traveled, and how do you think they got there?

 

[GatorBoy]

A rock shelter would be sheltered from most of the forces that I'm speaking of.
Someone posted that soil creep was ridiculous and some filed suit.one person inparticular..has somehow taken a personal stance oppising proven science in what seems like an attempt to beat chest.. as if information that's new to him threatens him somehow..or Mabey I do..IDK.
Everything I posted was real and could be very educational.. if that is what one decided to do with the information.
I'm sure there will be more educationaly empty posts to follow.
Probably quoting me.. I'm OK with that..he's out of gas.

 

[quito]

well if you weren't trying to put so much creep into so little time, I think you would have got further.

I doubt anyone is feeling threatened by new information you may have put forth though.

 

[Harry Pristis]

Okay . . . I did look at Geoarchaeology (2006) using Google. The author does talk about solifluction and soil creep distorting the archaeological record . . . on a wet slope . . . in Alaska. The author says outright that this mechanism is found in peri-glacial areas (that is, around or near a glacier).

Let's see, I believe 'Rock' claims to be in Georgia. Any glaciers near you in the last 10,000 years, Rock?

The author describes a number of ways that artifact layers can be mixed or distorted -- tree roots, burrowing animals, even earthworms -- but not a single one of those mechanisms requires an artifact to move on its own. Not only that, but none of those mechanisms would move the artifacts horizontally any significant distance.

You can read it for yourself . . . it's the very first hit on Google for "soil creep artifacts". This ballgame is OVAAAH!

 

[GatorBoy]

Okay . . . I did look at Geoarchaeology (2006) using Google. The author does talk about solifluction and soil creep distorting the archaeological record . . . on a wet slope . . . in Alaska. The author says outright that this mechanism is found in peri-glacial areas (that is, around or near a glacier).

Let's see, I believe 'Rock' claims to be in Georgia. Any glaciers near you in the last 10,000 years, Rock?

The author describes a number of ways that artifact layers can be mixed or distorted -- tree roots, burrowing animals, even earthworms -- but not a single one of those mechanisms requires an artifact to move on its own. Not only that, but none of those mechanisms would move the artifacts horizontally any significant distance.

You can read it for yourself . . . it's the very first hit on Google for "soil creep artifacts". This ballgame is OVAAAH!

Haha.. You find the one that's in Alaska And focus on that.. You're hilarious.. Groundwater of any sort Can create the affect... It's documented all over North America.
I'm sure some of them While describing the slope affect Will tell you about your hill With the limestone 6 inches from the surface. You're going to have to read more than one report to understand This new to you information Harry.
All that can happen is that you become more educated ... that's not a bad thing.
It certainly doesn't warrant the slander seen in previous posts.
We seem to have come a long way from "exposing the ridiculous" now you're actually learning something new..your welcome.
Kicking and screaming the whole way..but that's OK.. I don't take that stuff very seriously.
Bigger fish to fry.

 

[rock]

Now I hope everyone feels better and have proven their points.
I would like to get back on track if possible.
I feel some if not allot of people could of learned or joined in this discussion and could of given their own views on how these artifacts could of gathered or even told some stories of how they found them in piles so to speak. But when people see 3 well known members arguing on a thread like this I am sorry to say most will not join in. Most are afraid they will be told they are wrong. I really thought this was a good subject to learn by and not fight but actually have a real nice debate as to what they thought. I am trying to learn and I really enjoy this site ( Tnet). But I am going to request this thread be erased if Tnet or the mods wish. I am ashamed as to how it turned out. It was really going well and now it has gone nowhere but south.

 

[NC field hunter]

I'm not wanting to side with any one, as this seems rather heated. It's gone on for dang near a week now. Fault lines, tree roots, erosion, animals, and only The Lord knows what else can move artifacts. I'm unfamiliar with ground creep. I see where it could be, and probably is real. However, it is moving at a "creep". If the soil is moving artifacts far at all, points would not be associated with states. For instance, guilford points are normally associated with NC. If points are moved hundreds of miles, how could they be associated with certain areas? Now, I haven't read in this thread a distance, I just said hundreds because it sounds to me one side of this debate suggest artifacts boogie on down the road. The other side makes it sound like artifacts sit, never to move. Perhaps some do not move. Wind gust will blow topsoil over them and there they sit. However, I feel they do eventually move vertically with rain, until they meet up with tree roots that may push them horizontally. On undisturbed grounds, that are off of fault lines, I suppose vertically artifacts will travel a nice distance. Horizontally, not far at all. I'm not formally educated on this, nor will I ever be. If I ever sit in a class room again, it will be to gain knowledge worth a damn. Stone henge is still where stone henge was discovered. The rate at which these artifacts travel is so slow, that I find the mere study of it a total waste of time and some poor educated idiot's time. (I'm not insinuating Gator is the idiot either. He merely reads as do I, and learned some rather irrelevant stuff) come on fellas, is this really even worth talking about?

 

[rock]

I do know that in the winter when it gets really cold it will bring the rocks to the top. I have to remove them every yr from my back yard and throw them over the fence so as my mower doesnt hit them and break the blade. But that is upwards as far as I know.

 

[Hippy]

I find it pretty unfortunate that all of these long-winded, pointless arguments seem to have one common person. They often are far separate from the original intent of the thread. If they were good arguments maybe it should be allowed, but this gets ridiculous.

I suppose it's easy to be an internet know-it-all though.

Hippy

 

[Tnmountains]

Rock you got Ga clay buddy and not a lot of top soil is my guess. It builds up and washes away in washes often I bet. When the land is in forest it builds when in prairies or grass it can wash away pretty quick. The valley I am in is deep top soil but I can go 5 miles into Ga or Ala and hit clay in a couple of inches. That stuff is hard and probably can bet it is the bottom of your artifact zone. I know it is as far as I find relics metal detecting. Things are not real deep when you have that hard arse sticky clay. One reason pottery technology kinda came from Ga around here..that clay.


60 years ago this blue hole blew up out of the ground. The farmers in the valley talked about it for years. It was water pressure in the mountain pushing down on lime stone caves that caused it. The water had to go somewhere and eventually formed a fast stream back to the main creek. In the process of the water finding its way back to the creek it ran thru an ancient site. The artifacts were dispersed down that creek a pretty good ways. By hunting and excavating going backwards we found the site near the blue hole in the new stream. It clipped the edge of the site. It was arena mostly.






Sites in the south east look nothing like they did in ancient times. Where we used to be more open grass lands they were eventually taken over by hard woods and conifers later to be re-claimed and burned again for cultivation. So do artifacts get moved you bet. Do they move on their own maybe by freeze and thaw and rains and man. In my opinion.
Rock shelters of course not, sometimes they are left on a rock for thousands of years. I have a large one I found in a shelter just as it was left. It saw may sunrises and sunsets.

In the original post Rock said something about kill sites. We do not have kill sites per say as the herd animals were pushed out when we lost by extinction the giant sloths,camels,cave bears and sabre tooth tigers.Buffalo were here for a while but the landscape was changing back from prairie to hardwoods then. But we had plenty of processing sites/camps that saw habitation off and on for over 12,000 years. Just because what you hunt is a plowed field today does not mean it was even a field back then though they may have kept it burnt off. I remember when a field was cut out about 30 years ago and they did the first plow. We went after the first rain and you could see the charcoal disbursement from ancient fires in many areas by the color of the soil and we went there first.We could see this for about 5 years and then it was to mixed up to see anymore. I still hunt that old field and still look for the darker areas.Its maybe a 100 acres.
Yeah field hunters fill their pockets with flint and dump them on the edges of fields. Ancient man also cleaned his site often if they stayed there because all that debatge would cut your feet and they could not risk injury. I bet many were crippled from flint slivers in their feet and they were not stupid by any means so they cleaned often or went to certain areas to work tools. Hence just flakes in certain areas. Sometimes hit the wide open un expected spots where there is no flint for a good one. Clean ground.
Cheers.

 

[GatorBoy]

Very nice well rounded explanation there TN.
And I agree Hippy they should have gotten rid of me long ago.. I can't figure that one out.
H.H. rock.. and everyone.

 

[quito]

Very nice well rounded explanation there TN.
And I agree Hippy they should have gotten rid of me long ago.. I can't figure that one out.
H.H. rock.. and everyone.

either they are getting paid per post posted on here, or it's a sympathy thing.
And who are you agreeing with? Hippy didn't say anything about removing anyone.