Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards

[BILL96]

Well let me start the "slamming" what type of rock is that? it sort of looks like "oil shale"

Bill

 

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[Cubfan64]

Kurt - I absolutely remember the story about the gold ore discovered in the Superstitions with a vein of gold running through a soft black rock with red layers on each side. Was just looking into that whole story fairly recently as a matter of fact

Want me to reference it, or would you rather do that - or would you rather just leave if for people to find out on their own if they're interested?

 

[silent hunter]

Paul please post what you know on that subject.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul please post what you know on that subject.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter

I'm attaching the story from Tom Kollenborn where I first heard the reference. There have been other discussions I've seen, but I don't have the notes in front of me right now. I also saw a small piece of ore with gold in it that was in a blackish/red matrix supposedly found in the Superstitions.

These are the relevant quotations from Tom's article and the entire story is linked at the end.

In the spring of 1942, he and fourteen other men went on horses
up the Salt River to La Barge Canyon then up La Barge Canyon to
Squaw Box Canyon. They turned up Squaw Box Canyon, passed
by the box canyon, then passed on the north side of three red hills.
Then turned north about one mile and turned west to a hill north of
the box canyon. There is a tunnel at the south side base of the hill,
with brush and small trees nearly hiding it. They then went to the
top of the hill and uncovered a pit. They took out about $50,000 in
gold. When they finished they covered the pit again. The vein of
gold is in a soft black rock and on both sides of the black vein is red
rock.

Another man spoke about Silas Haywood on several occasions
and said he actually met a man who worked with Haywood and
heard the same story about the rock that was formed by alternating
layers of red and black material. This same rock was filled with
gold. Stories often get confused over the years. The J.J. Polka
story is very similar to the Haywood story, except it occurred in the
area above the upper box of La Barge Canyon. The rock in the
Polka story is almost identical to the rock in the Kochera story.

Jim Butler, who knew Chuck Aylor, Roy Bradford and Abe Reid,
spent a considerable amount of time searching for the ore associated
with alternating layers of red and black rock filled with fine
gold. Butler was familiar with the Polka story and the man named
Silas Haywood.

http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/Haywood Story.pdf

 

[silent hunter]

Thanks Paul. My searches are all based on the facts that Human Beings (Indians) lived in the superstion mountains. Therefore I dont search for the lost duchman, I search for sites and areas known to the indians. If anyone ever had a mine in the area the Human Beings would know.



Best Wishes
Kurt Painter

 

[Cubfan64]

Thanks Paul. My searches are all based on the facts that Human Beings (Indians) lived in the superstion mountains. Therefore I dont search for the lost duchman, I search for sites and areas known to the indians. If anyone ever had a mine in the area the Human Beings would know.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter

Best of luck to you too Kurt. I'd say you and Somehiker (Wayne) both have a very good eye for the "out of place" stuff out there, and the fact that you're mostly just searching and exploring for nothing in particular gives you a possible edge over people with preconceived ideas of where things are or are supposed to be.

I wish I could remember, but I thought there was more to the story of the 15 men (Native Americans) who supposedly took the gold out back in 1942 - I can't put my finger on it, but it had something to do with a local tribe buying something expensive or paying back some debt or something shortly after that date - suggesting of course that the story is true and that they went there with an express purpose to only take what they needed for "something."

Perhaps someone else will think of it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

As I recall, it was to purchase some high-dollar bulls to improve their herds.
Could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

As I recall, it was to purchase some high-dollar bulls to improve their herds.
Could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

And to think you're the one who always says his memory is going - what's my excuse That's exactly what it was - thanks for the reminder.

In all seriousness, it's kinda scary to not be able to remember things like I used to be able to 10-20 years ago - I have to admit that although it doesn't run in my family, I wonder if this is what it's like as altzheimer's slowly starts to take affect. I hope it's just natural aging and the fact that I have so many things I'm trying to remember - I hate to the think of the other alternative

 

[somehiker]

Hi Kurt:
Great find.The photo can not compare I'm sure,with the actual appearance.Nor can reading about ore such as that sample compare with finding and actually holding a piece in one's own hand.Undoubtedly,each successive group of natives,from paleo peoples to the Yavapai knew and understood much of what the previous occupants of the area had done,and where.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I believe the only Yavapai in the Superstitions were the Kwevkepayas, which would have included the well known headman, Delshe. Some fascinating/treacherous history involving the Kwevkepayas, the Tonto Apache and King Woolsey can be found in a number of Arizona history books.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[silent hunter]

While everyone else searches for proff that the duchman was here. I spend my time searching down habits of the people we new where here. There history is at least masked in truth. I put this topic in SH's thread because I believe assumtion is the only clues that are left to help guide us to the location of the "Duchmans mine". And assumtion is how legends are created. I think everyone has assumed the ore sample in the photo is Gold. In my opinion and in short I leave you with my thoughts. The Duchman came across the indians laying to rest another indian chief. He got his gold or treasure from the tomb of the Human Beings. The (mine) is nothing more than the tomb of dead indians. The Jesuits used these tombs to hide all there treasure in. The reason Jacob could never go back for more was because the indians found that someone had entered the sacred tomb. And they then gaurded the sacred barial spots of there great Chiefs.


Best Wishes
KurtPainter

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Kurt, interesting, any more?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Jim Hatt]

In my opinion and in short I leave you with my thoughts. The Duchman came across the indians laying to rest another indian chief. He got his gold or treasure from the tomb of the Human Beings. The (mine) is nothing more than the tomb of dead indians. The Jesuits used these tombs to hide all there treasure in. The reason Jacob could never go back for more was because the indians found that someone had entered the sacred tomb. And they then gaurded the sacred barial spots of there great Chiefs.


Best Wishes
Kurt Painter

Good Morning Kurt!

Having spent a considerable amount of time with you in the mountains. I know first hand, and better than most... How deeply you are dedicated to understanding the history of all those who have come there before us, and how you have developed a keen eye for spotting even the most subtle little changes in the environment around you, which when examined closely, would cause any prudent man to conclude that there has been some past human activities in the area.

That said... I sometimes find myself unable to understand how you weave it all together in your mind, and blend it in with the story of Jacob Waltz and the Lost Dutchman Mine. Since you called the above your "thoughts" and not a "theory" it cannot be challenged as a "THEORY"... which would require the presentation of Physical, Scientific, or Mathematical evidence which provides a logical explanation for what one believes.

In order to accept your "thoughts" as a rational possibility... A person would have to be willing to completely dismiss everything that has ever been written about Jacob Waltz and the Lost Dutchman Mine, some of which does contain a fair amount of Physical and Scientific evidence as well as, (in some cases) very credible documentation to back it up.

I think you should give a lot more consideration to the documented history of the Lost Dutchman Mine, before you completely dismiss all of it.

Give our best to Tami for the recovery from her injuries in the ATV accident, and tell her Doris and I think about her every day, and look forward to our next Sat. Night with plenty of pizza, brew, and good country music!

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

While everyone else searches for proff that the duchman was here. I spend my time searching down habits of the people we new where here. There history is at least masked in truth. I put this topic in SH's thread because I believe assumtion is the only clues that are left to help guide us to the location of the "Duchmans mine". And assumtion is how legends are created. I think everyone has assumed the ore sample in the photo is Gold. In my opinion and in short I leave you with my thoughts. The Duchman came across the indians laying to rest another indian chief. He got his gold or treasure from the tomb of the Human Beings. The (mine) is nothing more than the tomb of dead indians. The Jesuits used these tombs to hide all there treasure in. The reason Jacob could never go back for more was because the indians found that someone had entered the sacred tomb. And they then gaurded the sacred barial spots of there great Chiefs.

Best Wishes
KurtPainter

In my own research, I could find no evidence of Jesuit influence in the Superstition Mountains, and at one time I firmly believed, as you do, that they had hidden their treasures there. It took a number of years to change my mind.

In addition to that, Native Americans, and especially the Apache, have been a passionate interest of mine. What great chief do you believe is buried in the Supe's and what is your source, if you can say?

Historically, as far as I can tell, the only Apache who spent an appreciable amount of time in the range were the Tonto.

I would really like to hear more from you on this subject, and how it applies to the LDM.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[silent hunter]

Jim In my searching, the peraltas that mined the superstition mountains where only young men at best and had not came to arizona yet. I want to know what history there was before the peraltas came to arizona. As you know, to the Indians these outcrops would have been huge medican. They would have recorded the areas as sacred. They would have used the shinny metals. I believe in the stone maps and that they are treasure maps. I chose to hunt down what I know and that is Indians. Before there was a gold mine there where indians. You know that I trust mostly in the squaw map. I gave that map up when you showed me where that map was made. I am sure! that you have found that area. I have seen the stone maps come alive with you. There is no need for me to search for the end of the trail on the stone map's you have already solved them. I could only hope to be there when you hit the spot. I hope my answer don't cause you alot of phone calls asking you where the gold is. If it does ill deleate it my friend.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter

 

[Blindbowman]

While everyone else searches for proff that the duchman was here. I spend my time searching down habits of the people we new where here. There history is at least masked in truth. I put this topic in SH's thread because I believe assumtion is the only clues that are left to help guide us to the location of the "Duchmans mine". And assumtion is how legends are created. I think everyone has assumed the ore sample in the photo is Gold. In my opinion and in short I leave you with my thoughts. The Duchman came across the indians laying to rest another indian chief. He got his gold or treasure from the tomb of the Human Beings. The (mine) is nothing more than the tomb of dead indians. The Jesuits used these tombs to hide all there treasure in. The reason Jacob could never go back for more was because the indians found that someone had entered the sacred tomb. And they then gaurded the sacred barial spots of there great Chiefs.

Best Wishes
KurtPainter

In my own research, I could find no evidence of Jesuit influence in the Superstition Mountains, and at one time I firmly believed, as you do, that they had hidden their treasures there. It took a number of years to change my mind.

In addition to that, Native Americans, and especially the Apache, have been a passionate interest of mine. What great chief do you believe is buried in the Supe's and what is your source, if you can say?

Historically, as far as I can tell, the only Apache who spent an appreciable amount of time in the range were the Tonto.

I would really like to hear more from you on this subject, and how it applies to the LDM.

Joe Ribaudo

"In my own research, I could find no evidence of Jesuit influence in the Superstition Mountains"

joe very true .. i had only seen one statement in the killer mts about the jesuits and the 240 pack nmule train and the statements about Kino and that was it till i broke the code and traslate the part about the Tayopa letters . it is a unmisteakable dirrect link between the jesuits tayopa letters the stones and the ruth gonzales map..


if i had not translated the code i would totally agree with 100% the other accounts may be in the killer mts but hold no truth at the level of the code and how it relates to the translations ...


there is not dout what so ever the stones were created by the jesuits at tayopa and were made with the help of 4 groups of people ... and i fully agree to this point so far .. i have seen nothing else that links the jesuit dirrectly to the supers ...other then these events stated here ..

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

In all the years I have been researching and pounding around in the Superstition Mountains, I have never seen a single smidgen of solid evidence that the Jesuits ever set foot in them.

As long as your "evidence" is a code that only you understand, and things in the mountain that only you have seen, I will have to go with main-stream history.

My mother's uncle was Obie Stoker. He believed he had found the LDM back in the 20's. Over the years he convinced many people that he had found it, and talked them into financing and working his "claim". I believe he went to his grave believing he had found the mine.

Unfortunately, believing that you have broken a code that no one else has been able to do, along with five bucks, may buy you an average cup of coffee these days. You have worked hard over the years here, to convince people that you have the key, and know the facts.

I would suggest that you find one person on this site that you believe is honest and trustworthy, and explain the code and how it leads you to X marks the spot. If you can convince them that you are correct with your theories, that will be one more person than you have convinced since you joined this forum.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[silent hunter]

The apache indians from the valley in the 1840's had a camp outside a mexico town of sonoran. While they where there peacefully trading with the mexicans there camp was attacked and the indians who where left behind to gaurd the camp where killed. Among those killed where Chief Goyathlay's wife and children. Now what I wont get into is what the indians where trading in sonora because I dont know. But what ever it was caused the death of his family. The indian chiefs name was Goyathlay's or known to us as Geronimo. The mexicans killed his family that day at the camp the indians called Kas-ki-yen. Now we know that the indians attacked and killed the peraltas that where here in Goyathlay's home land, what we dont know is why.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter

 

[Jim Hatt]

Jim In my searching, the peraltas that mined the superstition mountains where only young men at best and had not came to arizona yet. I want to know what history there was before the peraltas came to arizona. As you know, to the Indians these outcrops would have been huge medican. They would have recorded the areas as sacred. They would have used the shinny metals. I believe in the stone maps and that they are treasure maps. I chose to hunt down what I know and that is Indians. Before there was a gold mine there where indians. You know that I trust mostly in the squaw map. I gave that map up when you showed me where that map was made. I am sure! that you have found that area. I have seen the stone maps come alive with you. There is no need for me to search for the end of the trail on the stone map's you have already solved them. I could only hope to be there when you hit the spot. I hope my answer don't cause you alot of phone calls asking you where the gold is. If it does ill deleate it my friend.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter

Friend Kurt,

I would probably get all upset and call you a "Big Mouth" but in truth I don't think that is called for, since there is so little chance of anyone believing what you wrote anyway.

I have seen the stone maps come alive with you. There is no need for me to search for the end of the trail on the stone map's you have already solved them. I could only hope to be there when you hit the spot.

If I live long enough to hit that spot Kurt. I am confident that there will be much more there than I could ever carry out on my back. With little chance of ever getting a pack animal to it... That leaves only the possibility of maybe getting it out via helicopter

Whom else would I turn to my friend?


So... Now the whole world knows that I believe the stone maps are authentic, and you believe I have solved them. I'll just go ahead and say it myself before "You Know Who" does.

"That and 5 Bucks will get us both........................"

Best,

Jim

 

[somehiker]

Hey Jim:
"That leaves only the possibility of maybe getting it out via helicopter "
Just tell them you'll buy it.
Get them to put one of those "fire buckets" on it,and you're good to go.

Weighed a couple of chunks of gold for a young lady at work today......14.4 grams and 4.7 grams.
I would guess the larger at a little over a 1/2 cc,but I asked her to bring them back in so I can do a volume test next week.
Looks to be pure 24 though.I'll get a photo tomorrow or monday as well.

Good to see you all been on here pillow fighting,while I been breaking rock of another kind.It's exactly what I had in mind for this topic.Kindova place where folks can park their ideas and let everyone else kick the tires or add their own spit and shinola.Don't need no stinkin documentation,just what you've seen and what you think about it.

Regards:SH