Heart of Stone...

[Harry Pristis]

Wow, are there some meanies on this board or what??
Not sure it is a heart, but I can damn sure state that a CT scan can look inside mineralized objects and structure can be seen (just as was stated about dino eggs with embryo intact)... How much of a coincidence is it that internally it has structures/valves/etc as that of a heart?Also, for all of you that have done your best to embarrass the guy with your "MD's know squat, Paleontologists know everything" statements, all I can say is this.. I have seen many, many, instances of famous Paleo's creating a complete skeleton and even having drawings made up of humans and animals from nothing more than a few bone fragments... They are one of the largest groups of scientists that, when they believe something existed, will use even the slightest "facts" to support their hypothesis, but if they dont feel it is real, the quickest to say "it couldnt be"...

And lastly, for those mentioned above, if you thnk that only bone can become fossils, how do you explain fossilized sh*t? I believe they refer to them as "copralites".... Yes, Paleontologists say they are fossilized poop. Now if crap can fossilize, why not a heart in the perfect conditions?
Poop, in any form, is one of the fastest degrading things there is..

Keep us posted please...

"Meanies"?? Parody is effective criticism. Sheldon has a story that lacks any supporting evidence -- it begs for criticism. ...Unless you, 'Christof60', have actually seen the scans of Sheldon's heart!? Are you implying that you have seen them when you say, "How much of a coincidence is it that internally it has structures/valves/etc as that of a heart?" Or, is it simply that you credit whatever you read on the Internet?

No one has attacked physicians. M.D.s are specialists in living (or recently-dead) humans. They are specialists neither in geological processes, nor in the remains of long dead animals. Attacking paleontologists is an irrational and unnecessary defense of human medical knowledge.

Paleontologists, as well as physicians and ED nurses, have the same flaws and weaknesses as the rest of us: they can be rude and overbearing along with over-reaching and even deceptive. In other words, they are human. But, in the final analysis, paleontologists are specialists in geological processes while medicos are not.

The extravagance of your criticism of "many famous Paleos" suggests you know more about human medicine than about paleontology. And that's okay -- we're all here learning about geological processes. So, here's a nugget for you: The word is spelled "coprolite," not copralite.

 

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[Tylocidaris]

I wasnt singling you out John, not even sure you were one of the guys that really blasted him... I will go back and re-read..
....
Have a great one, and sorry if offended (but nastyness still has no place on such a great board)...

Christof

Consider yourself one of the "meanies"....

Kinda sounded like you were...but, we'll not flame about that. When the substance is lost in the emotion, the discussion is over. No worries.

John

 

[Sheldon J]

Been busy, went to Korea for one great tour, Hong Kong (ditto), finished my gyro copter, certified it, moved it to an airport that is only 29 miles away instead of the 130 where it was, restoring a 125 year old barn (new foundation with Amish craftsmen), drove out east, tornado hit our Church and had a real mess to deal with, and other stuff (apartment building, farm) so not much free time to play here....

But we did take the stone to a Paleontologist in Ann Arbor, first words out of his mouth "this may look like a heart..." and suggested we have a CAT scan done. Which we related how that had already been done. He then asked what the results were, and we told him the guy that did the analysis said it had three chambers, and we could see the valves when he pointed them out to us, we also said we have a copy with us if he wanted to see it.

That is when the "I didn't find it" syndrome kicked in and all of a sudden he was no longer interested. Since then we have contacted others and some wanted to slice and section... that is not going to be allowed to happen, non destructive test only! But the primary problem is and continues to be if they did not find it they flat out are not interested in verifying it.

Something as amazing as this is one would think that a piece of the pie is at the very least better than looking at an empty cupboard but that is not how they seem to see it... apparently Paleontologist are not cup half full but more half empty type of people.

All it's going to take is one that actually is more interested in the discovery and not the the discovering

 

[Solius Symbiosus]

But we did take the stone to a Paleontologist in Ann Arbor, first words out of his mouth "this may look like a heart..." and suggested we have a CAT scan done. Which we related how that had already been done. He then asked what the results were, and we told him the guy that did the analysis said it had three chambers, and we could see the valves when he pointed them out to us, we also said we have a copy with us if he wanted to see it.

[red]That is when the "I didn't find it" syndrome kicked in[/red] and all of a sudden he was no longer interested.

That is a very provocative and disturbing accusation... and it deserves a rebuttal. The odds are that I know the guy, or knows someone that does.

What is this persons name? If you prefer, respond with a PM.

 

[Solius Symbiosus]

 

[Sheldon J]

Don't get me wrong he was a very friendly guy, head of the Paleontology department, gave us a fantastic and very informative tour of the Museum, and it's most interesting research areas with a synopsis of what projects were at hand. I managed to get his e mail and he promised to forward and help, but multiple e mails to him after our visit thanking him for his time, tour and requesting to be directed to our next avenue went totally ignored. I could just be that he is up to his eyeballs in the Mastodon dig but a simple reply would have been nice.

I did however come away with a much larger appreciation of the Paleontology field. There are many sub areas of study each with their own specialty, for example there are specialist in tube worms, pollen, or just teeth in the Mastodon. We got to see a real cool Whale skeleton from the Egyptian desert that they were making molds of so other institutions could display and study it.


I have not given up and when we do get a hit will post the results here.

 

[zerojinx]

A brain would indeed be most interesting, and your theory could have some merit, it would after all explain why just the heart and not the kidneys, liver, and the rest of the internal organs, but they could have been widely scattered due to glacial action.

A fossilized human brain was found a year or two ago in Waco, Texas. It came from a cemetery excavation at the Texas Ranger Museum. The graves in question were no more than 150 years old at the most, 40 years old at the least. Meaning that the fossilization occurred on an interred body preserving only the brain in 100 years or less.

So it is not that improbable that a heart from some critter fossilzed where everything else didn't. Pretty cool Heart.

 

[jeff a]

glacial chert cobble or as i call them sex stones because they are just a f%%% rock

 

[Sheldon J]

A brain would indeed be most interesting, and your theory could have some merit, it would after all explain why just the heart and not the kidneys, liver, and the rest of the internal organs, but they could have been widely scattered due to glacial action.

A fossilized human brain was found a year or two ago in Waco, Texas. It came from a cemetery excavation at the Texas Ranger Museum. The graves in question were no more than 150 years old at the most, 40 years old at the least. Meaning that the fossilization occurred on an interred body preserving only the brain in 100 years or less. So it is not that improbable that a heart from some critter fossilzed where everything else didn't. Pretty cool Heart.

Most interesting, according to one guy that looked at the stone and is a card carrying Mineralogist with a PHD to his accreditation such things as mineralization under certain very specific conditions can happen, which goes to add credence to it could happen....

 

[Goodyguy]

Hang in there Sheldon, the world is full of examples of things that couldn't happen according to the scientific theory of the day.

GG~

 

[Solius Symbiosus]

A fossilized human brain was found a year or two ago in Waco, Texas. It came from a cemetery excavation at the Texas Ranger Museum. The graves in question were no more than 150 years old at the most, 40 years old at the least. Meaning that the fossilization occurred on an interred body preserving only the brain in 100 years or less.

So it is not that improbable that a heart from some critter fossilzed where everything else didn't. Pretty cool Heart.

The only thing that I could find on a fossilzed human brain found in North America was a bunch of non-sense spewed by the Institute for Creation Research. Steven Novella destroyed that argument HERE.

Perhaps, you could provide a link to the story.

But, I will accept that a "fossilized" brain was found while disinterring a corpse for the sake of argument. If one was found, it would be an endocast of the brain case that was mineralized, and that endocast would not preserve any structure other than the superficial outline of the brain case. The original poster claims to have found a fossil that exhibits soft tissue preservation-a process that involves permineralization, and that preserves internal structure.
If an endocast was found, there would be no internal structure.

The sheer credulouness of some members to accept this as described by the original poster, after it has been explained, time and again, why it is not, is disturbing- I guess it speaks volumes about the educational system in this country.

And, it has turned me off to this forum, so I guess I will take my leave.

See ya out there in cyber-space.

 

[Harry Pristis]

Don't go away, Solius . . . this forum needs your skepticism!

Actually, fossilized human brains are not that rare. The bog people of Europe are fossils, and their brains are preseved by the tannins and anaerobic conditions. Same for the Native Americans found at Windamere Farm in Central Florida, buried and preserved in bog some 7,000 years ago. Same with the pickled Paleoindian brain from Little Salt Spring in South Florida. It's just that the brain tissue is not replaced by minerals, so it remains jello-like.

People want to believe the wackiest things, and they will distort (not deliberately, of course) real stories to fit their needs.

 

[Sheldon J]

A fossilized human brain was found a year or two ago in Waco, Texas. It came from a cemetery excavation at the Texas Ranger Museum. The graves in question were no more than 150 years old at the most, 40 years old at the least. Meaning that the fossilization occurred on an interred body preserving only the brain in 100 years or less.

So it is not that improbable that a heart from some critter fossilzed where everything else didn't. Pretty cool Heart.

The only thing that I could find on a fossilzed human brain found in North America was a bunch of non-sense spewed by the Institute for Creation Research. Steven Novella destroyed that argument HERE.

Perhaps, you could provide a link to the story.

But, I will accept that a "fossilized" brain was found while disinterring a corpse for the sake of argument. If one was found, it would be an endocast of the brain case that was mineralized, and that endocast would not preserve any structure other than the superficial outline of the brain case. The original poster claims to have found a fossil that exhibits soft tissue preservation-a process that involves permineralization, and that preserves internal structure.
If an endocast was found, there would be no internal structure.

The sheer credulouness of some members to accept this as described by the original poster, after it has been explained, time and again, why it is not, is disturbing- I guess it speaks volumes about the educational system in this country.

And, it has turned me off to this forum, so I guess I will take my leave.

See ya out there in cyber-space.

A prime example of that is the guy that proposed the Dino/Meteor extinction theory. Man did he ever take heat from the scientific community for that paper, it took years but was later proved to be 100% correct...

 

[Goodyguy]

A prime example of that is the guy that proposed the Dino/Meteor extinction theory. Man did he ever take heat from the scientific community for that paper, it took years but was later proved to be 100% correct...

If you are referring to the KT boundary extinction, they are still arguing over that one.
Seems the asteroid was only half as big as the average scientist's ego

 

[zerojinx]

The only thing that I could find on a fossilzed human brain found in North America was a bunch of non-sense spewed by the Institute for Creation Research. Steven Novella destroyed that argument HERE.

Perhaps, you could provide a link to the story.

But, I will accept that a "fossilized" brain was found while disinterring a corpse for the sake of argument. If one was found, it would be an endocast of the brain case that was mineralized, and that endocast would not preserve any structure other than the superficial outline of the brain case. The original poster claims to have found a fossil that exhibits soft tissue preservation-a process that involves permineralization, and that preserves internal structure.
If an endocast was found, there would be no internal structure.

The sheer credulouness of some members to accept this as described by the original poster, after it has been explained, time and again, why it is not, is disturbing- I guess it speaks volumes about the educational system in this country.

And, it has turned me off to this forum, so I guess I will take my leave.

See ya out there in cyber-space.

I personally saw the brain, as I was a member of the excavation team that found it. As far as I know, no one ever sliced it open or even bothered to look inside via a CAT scan. The brain was measured, weighed, photographed and reburied with the scant remains of its original owner, which was very little bone and coffin hardware. The individual was most likely an African American, as we were in thier portion of the cemetery. The most likely date of the individuals death was 1880 to 1940. No further research was allowed due to pending lawsuits against the city of Waco. Photos can be found at the TARL (Texas Archaeological Research Laboratory) in Austin Texas.

A good dose of skepticism is always good in any discussion, as long as its done in a respectfull fashion. I should have probably given more background information on the fossilized and or endocast brain. However, some of the skepticism given on this forum has been a bit hateful. In my profession I see alot of the attitude I've seen here. Which is to say the ever present I didn't see it and or no one taught me about it in school so its not true attitude.

I do hope this debat continues in a respectful fashion. Some of the posts pertaining to other fossilized objects were in poor taste and rude, but hey thats what the ignore button is for.

 

[centfladigger]

the Windover site in Titusville Fl has some awesome preservation 7000 year old brain still preserved, stomach contents hanspun cloth from palmetto fronds etc. never know what will be discovered that was believed impossible

 

[Goodyguy]

"History is replete with the blunders of science continuing all the way up to present day."
"Forgive me if I question any of the so called "scientific facts" thusly postulated by the so called scientific experts whose ego's can only be eclipsed by the vastness of their ignorance."
-----GG, TreasureNet Forum Heart of Stone (Jan. 31 2011)

 

[Harry Pristis]

History is replete with the blunders of science all the way up to modern day science blunders.
So please forgive me if I question any of the so called "scientific facts" thusly postulated by the so called scientific experts whose ego's can only be eclipsed by the vastness of their ignorance.
Keeping it real,
GG~

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' "
-------Isaac Asimov, column in Newsweek (21 January 1980)

 

[Goodyguy]

History is replete with the blunders of science all the way up to modern day science blunders.
So please forgive me if I question any of the so called "scientific facts" thusly postulated by the so called scientific experts whose ego's can only be eclipsed by the vastness of their ignorance.
Keeping it real,
GG~

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' "
-------Isaac Asimov, column in Newsweek (21 January 1980)

That was a classic example!
Thanks for providing proof to my point concerning ego.

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."
-----Arthur C. Clarke

* my post was directed only to those who are so full of themselves as to believe that they are never wrong. Surely no one on this forum fits that description.

After all "The fellow who thinks he knows it all is especially annoying to those of us who do."
----Harold Coffin

 

[Sheldon J]

Along those lines of reasoning gentlemen... Those who refuse to explore and examine will never expand the knowledge base of mankind....

Which is what I have ran into multiple times look, make and assumption, refuse to examine because I say it cannot exist.

On a recent note, my youngest son is in his final years of engineering at Western in Kalamazoo, and ran into a Paleontologist, after showing him some photos of the stone asked some questions for me.

One was could we get a Graduate student to take it on for a thesis project? Basically that answer was no, as all subject matter for a thesis must be approved by the college board, and their criteria rests more in the immediate field and not examination of such an artifact.

What did he think of it? Interesting object, and it needs further examination, however at present he is time poor. He did make copy's of the photos and post them thorough out the department with our contact information.

I called after a few days and talked to him on the phone, and volunteered to bring it over at his connivance should he or anyone wish to see it in person. He was very polite and helpful, but this object is not in his particular Paleontology field, but he will make sure everyone has a look at the photos and attempt to find a interested party.

So we are still in search of someone to take the rock for a closer and serious look.