Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Lastly for this evening's entertainment, I would like to share this Knights of Pythias kepi hat. As you can see it is embroidered with "Missouri." And since the pin may be of Missouri oirgin, I thought it was pretty cool. I have no idea what the number 46 represents, but I did see an almost identical hat from Indiana that was marked with a 82. There is a term I keep running across (Uniform Rank) that was related to this hat, but I haven't figured out what that means yet.

SBB

TCG ~ Thanks for all the helpful information. Isn't it strange, here we know the pin's origin and still can't find one to match? I'm going to focus on "cadet" and see what turns up.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

SodaBottleBob wrote:
> There is a term I keep running across (Uniform Rank) that was related to this hat, but I haven't figured out what that means yet.

The answer in my my prior post. Here's a direct quote from it. "The Wikipedia article says "some Pythians formed the Uniformed Rank, which adopted military terminology for its organization."

The "Uniform Rank" was the military-themed branch of the Knights of Pythias.

> I have no idea what the number 46 represents, but I did see an almost identical hat from Indiana that was marked with a 82.

In many nationwide fraternities, local chapters (or "posts") are numbered, in consecutive order following the formation of the first post in the nation. For example, my dad was an Elks member, and the Atlanta chapter was Elks Club "Post 78."

> TCG ~ Thanks for all the helpful information.

You're welcome. It's my only purpose for posting here at TresureNet to do.

> Isn't it strange, here we know the pin's origin and still can't find one to match?

Yeah... I looked through 9 pages of Ebay listings for KoP insignia (a total of 418 items), with no match-up for Bill_S's pin. :-/

> I'm going to focus on "cadet" and see what turns up.

Begging your pardon, I don't agree about the cadet/short-sword thing. The Military Cadet swords at the linked website, because they are modeled on the US M-1840 Non-Commissioned Officer (NCO) sword, seem to have narrow, long, straight blade. The US Military short-sword is characterized by having a straight extra-wide blade, which is only 19 inches long. For comparison to that length, typical US Military combat-use swords like the M-1860 Light Cavalry saber have a 30-to-31-inch long blade.

Tomorrow, I'll be websearching for KoP "Uniform (or Uniformed) Rank" insignia. You can join me at that if you wish. Tonight on Ebay I came across a KoP UR Artillery Officer's kepi. It had the same red trim as a US Army artilleryman's kepi. So I'm thinking that perhaps the KoP UR had their own equivalent of US Army rank-insignia.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TCG ~

Thanks again.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the swords on the pin "look like" short swords. Do you agree? Every "K of P" sword I have seen are those long fancy ones. Have you seen an actual "K of P" sword that matches those on the pin? I'm just confused why the pin depicts what looks like a short sword when they could just as easily have depicted a fancy, long, skinny, pointed one? Even the swords on the triangle shaped pin I posted (which I have seen a jillon of) look like short swords. I'm not sure we have seen every type of sword yet that is associated with the "K of P."

Regarding the numbers, I came across the following text that refers to "K of P" branches as "Lodges." And the one referred to below, Lodge no. 20, just happens to be one of the oldest. Of course, if the missing digit on the pin does turn out to be a number, it could just as easily have been 3 thru 9 = 30 thru 90.

I believe Sedelia, Missouri is located somewhere near Green County.
(I don't know yet if each state started with a Lodge no.1 ~ or if it was a national count).
{However, I did read where they once had 1,000+ Lodges ~ And about 650 today}

SBB

[Text]

Star Lodge No. 20, was the first subordinate lodge, and among the older citizens will be found those who composed its membership. The Uniform Rank, or military department, played a prominent part in the Pythian circles of Greene county's history, and at one time this branch of the order numbered some two hundred and twenty-five members. Today there is but one company of the rank and it is regarded by those in charge of uniform rank affairs to be the best company in the state of Missouri.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's a link to the most interesting and informative website I've seen about ...

"The Knights of Pythias"

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/knights_of_pythias.htm

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

[ From the website I posted above ]


~ Rank of Esquire ~

The Lesson/Motto "C "

The sole purpose of the ceremony must be to impress the candidate with the lesson of C, and the observance of the obligations of the order. The discussion should be clean and dignified, calculated to appeal to the better side of man, and leave in truth,

“no unpleasant recollections.”

In ancient times, an Esquire was but one rank removed from the honors of knighthood. It is the same in this order; and, as you advance to this rank, remember its motto C, study the full meaning of the word, so that, under all circumstances, at all times, you may be prudent, cautious and watchful, exercising care in the business of life, prudence in your social relations, and that watchful tenderness toward your loved ones consistent with the highest, purest type of manhood. The lesson of this rank is intended to be practical and of practical benefit. If you will take the motto as your life-motto; if you will keep it always before you, it will prove a danger-signal, warning you of the pitfalls that line the path of life.

 

[allan]

Wheatland #440 Missouri charity lodge of the KOP and here is another tidbit Wyandotte Division No. 10, Uniform Rank Knights of Pythias, is the oldest and now the only division of the Uniform Rank in Kansas City, Kansas.

 

[diggummup]

Although I haven't replied as often as some on here, I have spent many hours researching this item. I've watched the evolution of this thread from it's inception. You guys are close, I can feel it. I for one am bowing out, as it is too much for me. I'm spending too much time on it. I can't find a single photo of any uniformed rank Knights of Pythias member wearing an insignia even close to this. For that matter I can't find a single example of anything even close to this insignia (with identical swords), regardless of the missing letter/number. Good luck and I hope know you guys will get it eventually.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

diggummup ~

I hear ya! The more I dig into this stuff, the weirder it gets. My personal goal is simply to identify the purpose of the pin and the meaning of the letters/numbers. Which is strange in itself, because I still can't figure out if the missing digit is a zero or an O. One minute I think it's a zero, and then the very next minute I think it's an O. Here is another example of it as an O ...

[From that website again]

Q: "In what capacity did you return to the Supreme Lodge?"

A: "As a Past Supreme Chancellor and a member in good standing in my Subordinate Lodge in the District Of Columbia." (DOC).

~ * ~

I have seen a jillion of those triangle-shaped pins, but nothing that even comes close to the one in question. Which suggest to me that it might be one of those weird ceremony pins, and only given to select members.

My current impression is that the crossed swords have something to do with a ...

"Master at Arms"

SBB

 

[ivan salis]

UR - uniform rank - of knights of phythias * -- note the U Q R on the sword * was to be the MOST MILITARY LIKE OF THE FRATERIAL ORDERS - during the spanish american war the leader of the knights of pythias offered an entire unit made of of knioghts of pythias members for use to the american military -- they were highly military like and trained to fight with SWORDS, AXES AND LANCES * -- some of them fought in the civil war as soldiers *-- maybe its a knight of pythias crossed swords item that was "modifed" by the sodering on the M O over the C --missouri -- artillery battery C or company C

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

~ Summarization (thus far) of Clues/Possibles ~

(Contributed by members starting with SoMdRelicHunter's ID post #133)

#137 ~ Breezie ... Possible 1920s clasp
#139 ~ TheCannonballGuy ... 1. Court of Calanthe ~ 2. Order of Calanthe
#143 ~ TheCannonballGuy ... Possible UR Rank Insignia
#144 ~ Sodabottlebob ... Possible Lodge Number (10 thru 90)
#146 ~ Sodabottlebob ... Mysterous "C" reference to Lesson/Motto
#147 ~ allan ... 1. Wheatland #440 ~ 2. Division No. 10
#149 ~ Sodabottlebob ... 1. District of Columbia ~ 2. Possible Master at Arms
#150 ~ ivan salis ... Possible Missouri (MO) Battery/Company C

Additionally ... Notice the "shoulder board/patch" in the picture below. The picture itself is described as being that of a Chancellor circa 1870s. I am looking for a better picture/close up of one of those shoulder patches. I'm not saying just yet that the patch is the same exact "crossed swords," but it might be. If anyone comes across anything like this, please share it with us.

Thanks to one and all.

SBB

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

SodaBottleBob wrote:
> #143 ~ TheCannonballGuy ... Possible Army Rank

No, not Army rank ...possible insignia of rank in the UR lodge's command structure, such as Master-At-Arms, Chancellor, etc.

The KoP UR organization, being military-themed, seems to have had its own equivalent to the rank of sergeant, colonel, etc. in its command structure. An example of the UR "equivalent" rank: The US Army has no rank of Chancellor, but a UR Chancellor seems to be equivalent to a Major or Colonel ...and the UR Master-At-Arms seems to be the equivalent of the US army's Sergeant-At-Arms, Master Sergeant, or Gunnery Sergeant.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TCG ~

Sometimes it's difficult for me to interpret exactly what is being said. Which I have no doubt is also the case with some of the stuff I post. I corrected your post #143, which I understand the meaning of now, but didn't earlier, and got from this ...

So I'm thinking that perhaps the KoP UR had their own equivalent of US Army rank-insignia.

SBB

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Glad to hear the meaning of my statement is now clear. KoP Uniformed Rank "equivalent of" didn't mean I think Bill_S's pin is an Army insignia.

For further clarification... here are some quotes from a statement by Alfred A. Saltzman, the current Supreme Secretary of the Supreme Lodge of the Knights of Pythias. http://www.joycetice.com/flaghold/flag009.htm

"The jewels and pendants which our officers wear around their necks during meetings show a particular weapon or combination thereof, and each officer's rank is represented by a different weapon."

Here is KoP Supreme Secretary Saltzman's description of the Uniform[ed] Rank branch of the KoP:
"On some swords. the letters "U R" (not V R) stand for Uniformed Rank. Just after the fraternity was founded, a very elite group of Pythians fashioned themselves into a militaristic type of organization. They had their own military [style] uniforms, they referred to their lodges as military units, they called themselves by military titles, they went to "encampments" instead of conventions, and they even had their own set of rules and regulations. They excelled in marching and in drills, but the group became very disruptive to the Order and the last unit was finally disbanded in the 1950's. The Uniformed Rank used the [Calla] Lily as its official flora [...]."

Supreme Secretary Saltzman's statement about the two lengths of KoP swords:
"The long narrow sword is used for parades and drills because it is easy to handle. The short stubby type is used whenever one has to be placed in a semi-permanent position, such as on the open Bible which is present at all Pythian gatherings."

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TheCannonballGuy ~

I sure hope you have a sense of humor, because I'm going out on a limb with this one and betting you do. And please know that it applies to myself more than anyone. I post it because I'm sure there are a lot of members out there who are asking ...

 

[High Plains Digger]

I'll bet there are "Secret Societies" that have more pins and other bits and pieces out there than what is showing up for the KoP. Something isn't setting right for all that research to not have come up with something. Or an active member, proud of their membership.

 

[allan]

I found a letter a guy wrote that said he had spoken to one other original member in 1995 by mail one time and never heard from him again. also in 1999 he said he brought it up as to ressurect it to keep it in the minds of KOP members but no further action was taken.He said he thinks he is one of the last. I just have to find it in one of my dozens of links from this item. swords abound but other military style accessories are few and far between. if it is out there we will find it if not today one day I hope. another funny thing happened on one of my searchs I saw references to the KGC and the link brought me to Tnet lol

 

[Bramblefind]

Here's a depiction of a Uniform Rank K of P medal from a Ft. Worth newspaper 7/5/1907.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Bramblefind ~

As always, you're the "woman."

Now ... please, please figure out what the letters/?/numbers represent.

Gracias'

Roberto

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

SodaBottleBob, I cannot be offended by a joke I don't "get." ;-)

Okay, try these two thoughts on.

SodaBottleBob wrote:
> Unless someone convinces me otherwise, (which would be pretty easy at this stage) then I am sticking with ...
> The swords depicted on the pin are some type of "Short Swords"
> I don't know from what country or time period, but I definitely believe them to be short swords. The reason I emphasize
> this is because at least 90+% of the short swords I have seen pictures of, and text references to, were all ...
> "Artillery Related"
> So unless someone chooses to question or challenge this, then it too may serve as a valuable clue to the item's eventual identification ...
> TheCannonballGuy ... What say you? I hold high regards for your knowledge and opinions.

You've asked specifically me if I question or challenge that
1- "the swords depicted on the pin are short swords"
2- "90+ % of short swords I have pictures of, and text references to, were all Artillery related."

Here are my challenges to those two theories:
1- There seems to be no USA (nor CSA, nor British, nor French) Artillery short-swords which have a clamshell guard. The swords on the pin have a large oval clamshell guard on the main crossguard. Therefore, the swords on the pin do not represent short-swords.
2- I believe I know what the swords on the pin represent. The emblem on their clamshell guard shows the letters U R and a Calla Lily, which we know means the KoP Uniformed Ranks. The KoP UR short-sword does not have a clamshell guard. The KoP UR long-narrow-bladed sword does have a clamshell guard (which has the letters UR and lily-emblem). Therefore, the swords on the pin represent the UR's long-sword.

I believe there is a simple "practicality" reason why the UR long-sword blades on the pin are not as long as they "ought to be" for a strictly-accurate portrayal of the UR long-sword. If the pin swords' blades were long and narrow, they would much more easily get broken off. Also, you could easily stick yourself in the neck while wearing the pin on your collar.

That is why the US Army crossed-swords collar insignia shows the swords in their scabbard -- which makes the swords' long body wider, for strength, and the scabbard-ends have blunt tips, so they won't stab your neck.

 

[allan]

I saw this and wondered if the "sword" pin had similar lettering at the top like these crossed rifles ?urmo uniformed rank missouri ? I also read the long kop sword was ceremonial and the short sword was used as a page holder for the bible which was present at all functions