Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

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[ivan salis]

www.arms2armor.com link

scroll down a bit go to --arms and armor identifaction help * click on it

scroll down a fair bit --you will see a blue "swords" click on it

the scroll down to us swords click on the sword picture -- then find "cadet"

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

www.arms2armor.com link

Thats a large link Ivan. Is it on this page? http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/usswords.htm

Ivan. Go to the page, click on the sword and then copy and paste the url.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Is this it? http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/cadet1.htm

 

[ivan salis]

no look at the second one -- it has a "MA" in a oval

 

[ivan salis]

I think it has elements of several differant US "artillery" / military academy cadet style short swords of the pre civil war early civil war era swords

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

www.arms2armor.com link

scroll down a bit go to --* click on it

scroll down a fair bit --you will see a blue "swords" click on it

the scroll down to us swords click on the sword picture -- then find "cadet"

Thanks for the better explanation. Here is the "arms and armor identifaction help/swords/cadet" page according to your instructions.. http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/usswords.htm#CADET

The pics are copyrighted. Here is an "MA" clamshell.

 

[ivan salis]

i think it has elements of both of the cadet type swords --the end like the 1840 west point model one and the "ma" type oval of the civil war era military academy one -- note that both of them have the wire wrapped style grips

 

[allan]

maybe that is the letter O look at the first pic http://hglanham.tripod.com/metalinsignia/collardisk1.html

 

[ivan salis]

note the lay out --its state and unit number under it NY with 88Th cav its pre WW1 since by WW1 the round type collar disc came into play .

mo - state would have then had the unit number under it (* see the soldier you showed) --


PLEASE LOOK AT THE POST #27 * IT IS A CIVIL WAR ERA -COLLAR DEVICE *
during the civil war it was the common practice to have the unit number on top with the "company" letter below it -- like 10 (th) over top of THE CALVARY SWORDS -company "H"-- in the civil war most units fought as a "state groups" so everyone in the group knew what state they were from .

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

note the lay out --its state and unit number under it NY with 88Th cav its pre WW1 since by WW1 the round type collar disc came into play .

mo - state would have then had the unit number under it (* see the soldier you showed) --


PLEASE LOOK AT THE POST #27 * IT IS A CIVIL WAR ERA -COLLAR DEVICE *
during the civil war it was the common practice to have the unit number on top with the "company" letter below it -- like 10 (th) over top of THE CALVARY SWORDS -company "H"-- in the civil war most units fought as a "state groups" so everyone in the group knew what state they were from .

The sword is different Ivan. We have not been able to find a hat device, or a collar device for that matter, with these swords. Yes they are similar but wrong swords. Read replys #1 -- #4.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TCG ~

Thanks. I clearly understand now there were no double-digit artillery regiments prior to the Civil War. However, based on the recent developments, I'm back to being confused again about the swords themselves. I'm not quite sure if the cadet swords being discussed are short swords or long swords. I supposed that will be determined shortly. But now I'm wondering if the swords on the pin are actual reprensentations of true swords, or merely a designer's "concept" of what they might look like. If they are simply an artist' design, then that could complicate things. But if they are actual, then I suppose it comes back to the whole clamshell business. It's a vicious circle that leaves my head spinning ...

"Will the real clamshell short sword (any country) please stand up!"

[ Like the one on the pin ]

(And by "stand up," I mean "picture").

Thanks.

I 'm looking, too.

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

But now I'm wondering if the swords on the pin are actual reprensentations of true swords, or merely a designer's "concept" of what they might look like.

Yes I am also afraid that the clamshell writing and blade designs are just a designers concept and dont say anything in particular. Are the 2 clamshells "initials" even the same?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Im curious if the back attachment is even the same on the calvary hat devices.
Can someone post a pic of the back of a a US Calvary crossed sword hat device?

Below is the WWI hat pin posted by allan. I see its also on the collar.

"An Early 20th Century 38th N.Y. Cavalry Soldier wearing "Cut Out" Collar Insignia on a Dress Uniform"

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Dang ... I've seen several of the backsides, but I didnt save the pictures. But I do recall the majority of them had "four short wires" and not a pin.

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I got to drive to work. Be back by Friday. Keep up the research. Good luck.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's an example of crossed cannons ...

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Hey Big Cy ...

Where'd ya go? Did ya leave already? If so, have a good week. Bring us an alligator. Lol

Anyway, here's the closest thing I could find for an American (or any other country) short sword that "sort of" has an oval/clamshell grip. I'm really starting to think the swords depicted on the pin are nothing more than "designer concepts" and not true-to-life swords. And if that's the case, then .... then, I don't know what to say or think.

SBB

[ Close but no cigar ~ or should I say, no "clamshell" ]

 

[Michellets]

OK...so we have solder on the letter/number backs, we don't have an old style pin clasp, and there are still no known examples found. Here's some food for thought..... the details on the swords themselves might be a clue as to age. To me the details suggest late 1800's to modern times. They are not indicative of pre civil war style, and motif. There is also the possibility that this pin could be a proto-type for a fraternal organization of some type. The fact that there were lead bullets and musket balls found in the area may not be a factor with this object.... One important clue might be a more detailed description of where it was found..... in a town/city, county. Are there any Colleges or Fraternal orders in that town, city, or even village? I think that we can solve it..... with just a little more looking HH M

 

[Bill_S]

Thanks for all the research and time you guys have taken to try to figure this out. I did not realize the thread would go this far.......;o) Its not that big of a deal to me if it don't get solved. It may be a challenge to some of you......;o) Thanks for the effort and time you have taken already.

It was found inside the city limits of Sedalia, Mo. North West of the downtown area.

 

[allan]

I found a pin that was attributed to the rough riders, yes I know the swords are different but its the soldering and pin back that caught my eye. I am wondering if it is rotc related, don't worry Bill S I am doing it for me now lol , interesting item