Man fined for using metal hoe on beach. Associated Press

teklord

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An Alabama youth minister was fined $25 for using a metal garden hoe to dig in the sand with his 7-year old son while on spring break in Panama City Beach Florida. The officer told them they could not use metal tools on the beach. The law was adopted after a rowdy 2015 spring break and was designed to protect against sexual assaults.

Bring a plastic scoop?

Tek
 

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No need to be flippant, I specifically said "obscure and recently enacted ordinances".
Speeding, drug use, rape, murder ect are well known to be against the law while using metal tools at the beach are not.

You are most certainly being "flippant". Since when HAVEN'T you know "known" that your son digging sand castles on the beach ISN'T as bad as "rape and murder". What's wrong with you ? HOW DARE you question this. Tsk tsk.
 

I'd still like to see a pic of this "hoe", has anyone checked his facebook account for more info ?
I've seen screen grabs, seems he posted quite a bit about this incident ,, I'm having a hard time seeing a garden hoe being an efficient tool for sand digging.
 

It's Saturday morning, and a few of you authority haters wake up to find the Treasurenet Newbie Detecting Club digging up your back yards. You walk out back and say, "Hey, you can't be doing that here!" A little guy walks up to you and he says, "But you advocate don't ask and if it isn't posted don't worry about it. Now then, we'll need you to cite all of the corresponding laws to us before we decide what we're going to do." :laughing7: I don't know, what would you guys do? Call those bad cops, let them handle it for you? :laughing7:
 

I'd still like to see a pic of this "hoe", has anyone checked his facebook account for more info ? ....

What would it matter ? If I recall, the prohibition was from metal digging tools of *any* sort, wasn't it ? So the fact/distinction of "hoe" vs "shovel" etc.... is almost a moot point, eh ?

Perhaps the intention was not to single out little kids with their plastic pales and shovels. And they had in mind dangerous holes dug by partying college kids, so they just defined "metal' shovels. D/t that's the stereotypical type bought at a hardware store and associated with deeper true "pits".

There was a beach in So. CA (city-owned, in that case) that had a prohibition on "digging" on the beach. Turns out that the root/origin of the rule was d/t some kids digging tunnels through the damp sand, had had the sides cave in. A kid suffocated and died. Thus the rule "no digging".

Yet ... let's be honest : Was that EVER meant to ensnare md'rs 'holes' ? OF COURSE NOT. *Could it be* ? Sure. We "dig" after all, right ? Thus as you can probably imagine, no one had ever heard of or ever enforced this "rule" (barring unless someone was being a real nuisance). Yet it was enough to cause an md'r to "shudder in his boots" wondering if he should "go to city hall seeking clarification/permission" blah blah

In the end, the md'r (who'd seen this rule and thought it meant he couldn't md) believed local So. CA hunters who assured him you could hunt till you're blue in the face. But in that case, I wonder: Would it have been possible for some authority (who perhaps was aware of the law) to come split hairs and shut an md'r down ? I suppose. Yet the *reality* was something quite different.
 

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oddscoop the authority craver, you make some of the lamest attempted analogies I have ever seen.
Peoples backyards are private property, public beaches are not. Trespassing was never an issue in this matter.
If someone was digging in my back yard without permission, they'd wish they weren't there when I let my 2 90 lb German Shepard's out and let them handle it for me.
 

oddscoop the authority craver, you make some of the lamest attempted analogies I have ever seen.
Peoples backyards are private property, public beaches are not. Trespassing was never an issue in this matter.
If someone was digging in my back yard without permission, they'd wish they weren't there when I let my 2 90 lb German Shepard's out and let them handle it for me.

So you're arguing now that it's ok for people to be ignorant of the laws on a beach but it's not ok for people to be ignorant of the laws concerning digging in your back yard? :laughing7: In one case you think the officer was unjust for writing the ignorant a citation, in the other you're set to turn the dogs loose on the ignorant who were only following the advice and logic of, well, some of the posters here? This is kind of one of those "shoe on a different foot" sort of things, I think. Lame? Perhaps, perhaps not so lame?
 

So you're arguing now that it's ok for people to be ignorant of the laws on a beach but it's not ok for people to be ignorant of the laws concerning digging in your back yard?

Unless you [not you personally, lets not get started] are a ******, criminal, Alzheimer victim or wandering 5 year old, its common knowledge that you don't invade someone elses private property without consequences.
Public beach digging sand castles, not so much so. I fail to see why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.
What next, you going to suggest a guy grabs my wifes ass then steals my lawn mower and I'm going to have to explain why I am going to bust his teeth out ? I think a majority of folks would be taken aback if told they can't use certain digging tools to make a sand castle and can only dig up to a certain depth and would question it, except for 'Yes Sir ! You are always right sir because you have a badge sir !" guys like you.

You may call that law abiding, I call it subservient, meek and patronizing.
 

.... I call it subservient, meek and patronizing.

Then you OBVIOUSLY don't know how evil and unlawful "2 ft. deep holes" and "metal shovels" are. Any thinking person would *obviously* know that it's as wrong as grabbing your wife's @ss, stealing lawn mowers, rape, etc.... Which is exactly why the story-guy was utterly in the wrong to question anything.
 

Unless you [not you personally, lets not get started] are a ******, criminal, Alzheimer victim or wandering 5 year old, its common knowledge that you don't invade someone elses private property without consequences.
Public beach digging sand castles, not so much so. I fail to see why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.
What next, you going to suggest a guy grabs my wifes ass then steals my lawn mower and I'm going to have to explain why I am going to bust his teeth out ? I think a majority of folks would be taken aback if told they can't use certain digging tools to make a sand castle and can only dig up to a certain depth and would question it, except for 'Yes Sir ! You are always right sir because you have a badge sir !" guys like you.

You may call that law abiding, I call it subservient, meek and patronizing.

Was there or was there not a law in place prohibiting the use of metal tools on the beach? It's a simple yes or no answer. It isn't an issue of holes, or bad cops, or anything else you're trying to turn it into....it's a simple case of a violation of a written law that was in place. You seem to want to pick and choose when ignorance of such laws is ok and when it isn't. If it effects you personally, or your personal property, then ignorance isn't ok. Well, that beach isn't your property, not under your jurisdiction, it is municipal, county, or state property, etc. "Public" doesn't mean that you own it, or any part of it, and yet you continue to insist that ignorance of the law on this property is an acceptable accuse, yet not ok when it directly effects you, yours, and your property. "subservient, meek and patronizing"....."if you say so."

PS: If I had been that guy on the beach I would have thanked the officer for informing me of a law I had been ignorant of, bought my son a plastic bucket and shovel, and I would have concluded my quality time on the beach with my family and avoided getting a citation for a law that I was violating. You may call that "subservient, meek and patronizing." However, I think a lot of people would call it, "just plain smart."
 

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Was there or was there not a law in place prohibiting the use of metal tools on the beach? It's a simple yes or no answer. ...

Yes there was. And it's someone's duty to have known that. Right ?

.... If I had been that guy on the beach I would have thanked the officer for informing me of a law I had been ignorant of...

Then you are a mother-Teresa of all-folk. Because the "real-life" people, told of something as silly as this, DID NOT have this reaction. They (gasp) thought to say "really?" "since when?" and "this can't possibly be", etc.... If you don't believe me, I can maybe find the youtube candid camera stunt were something this silly was thrust on people.
 

It's Saturday morning, and a few of you authority haters wake up to find the Treasurenet Newbie Detecting Club digging up your back yards. You walk out back and say, "Hey, you can't be doing that here!" A little guy walks up to you and he says, "But you advocate don't ask and if it isn't posted don't worry about it. Now then, we'll need you to cite all of the corresponding laws to us before we decide what we're going to do." :laughing7: I don't know, what would you guys do? Call those bad cops, let them handle it for you? :laughing7:

Bigscoop. I really have a question for you. WHO do you think is an authority hater on here? I for one haven't seen any. However, if you feel like people that ask questions or defy what they are told to do EVEN if the officer is in the wrong. Well I guess you can call me an authority hater.
 

Bigscoop. I really have a question for you. WHO do you think is an authority hater on here? I for one haven't seen any. However, if you feel like people that ask questions or defy what they are told to do EVEN if the officer is in the wrong. Well I guess you can call me an authority hater.

News-flash! The officer in this case....."wasn't in the wrong!" So why are so many trying to find something, anything, to put that officer in the wrong? It's pretty simple, the guy with the metal hoe was in the wrong, "Period!" :laughing7:

A lot of you guys are confusing the issue, trying to twist it into something that it isn't simply because they want to find something wrong with "authority" in this case. Sure, the law may be silly, even petty, but that's not the issue. The core issue here is that an officer approached a beach-goer and informed him that he was in violation of the law, asked him to stop. What is at issue here is that this wasn't agreeable to the violator, this resulting in a citation. End of story. No big mystery. No bad officer. :dontknow:
 

News-flash! The officer in this case....."wasn't in the wrong!" So why are so many trying to find something, anything, to put that officer in the wrong? It's pretty simple, the guy with the metal hoe was in the wrong, "Period!" :laughing7:

A lot of you guys are confusing the issue, trying to twist it into something that it isn't simply because they want to find something wrong with "authority" in this case. Sure, the law may be silly, even petty, but that's not the issue. The core issue here is that an officer approached a beach-goer and informed him that he was in violation of the law, asked him to stop. What is at issue here is that this wasn't agreeable to the violator, this resulting in a citation. End of story. No big mystery. No bad officer. :dontknow:

Well from what I have read you are absolutely correct. However, as the officers supervisor pointed out the law wasn't written to stop children from building sand castles with metal tools. I think that is EVERYONE'S problem but I could be wrong. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. YES, he broke the law as many of us do because of the letter of the law.

But as for the spirit of the law, he did nothing wrong.

There are absolutely thousands of laws on the books because of certain problems with people. Also those thousands on the books can be enforced as per the letter of it, or ignored because they were written for certain instances like digging a hole to have sex on the beach, or ignored because the child has a small metal hoe and is not digging a hole for sex.

As an officer, you have DISCRETION as I have stated. Sometimes laws need to be overlooked because what they were written and what the situation is, are frankly two different things. When an officer investigates a situation, they are supposed to use common sense. I can't say as I agree with the officers choice of action but again I wasn't there and I don't know what actually transpired.

But you are absolutely right. The priest broke the law with his child. No argument.

But was the officer a little overzealous in doing her job? I think some including her supervisors tend to think yes.
 

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As I said before, I think there is more to the story that eventually lead to the citation. I don't believe for a second that the officer approached this individual in an overzealous or ego-driven fashion, but I do think the officer was, perhaps, short on patience, the reason for this completely unknown to any of us. This is the portion of the story that is left untold and has to be witnessed before judgement of that officer actions can be so easily passed. BUT, regardless why that law came into being isn't the issue, and in all fairness to the officer, that law should be applied evenly across the board. To me this is one huge problem with many laws, that they are subject to discretion at all. Two individuals in violation of the same law, one gets a citation while other walks.....while I understand this discretion it also makes the law very bias and subject to selection.
 

.... However, as the officers supervisor pointed out the law wasn't written to stop children from building sand castles with metal tools.....

Doesn't matter, does it ? The "spirit" (intent) of the law isn't to be taken into account, eh ? That's what I seem to gather from some well meaning folks on md'ing forums. They read of some fluke isolated odd-ball 1-in-a-million story like this, and think "oh no! I'm at imminent risk of arrest if I hunt a sandbox! "

Stories like this (and lots that get cited for saying "scram" to an md'r) are just that: Flukes. Ignore them, give lip service, keep a low profile, and don't ask silly questions of bored bureaucrats :)

It was sort of a funky story. That did have ramifications to md'ing. But in the end, should be dismissed as nothing but a fluke on both sides: The cop and the civilian. And a "fluke" for the media who picked up on it as a tabloid sensational funky story.
 

As I said before, I think there is more to the story that eventually lead to the citation. ....

Perhaps. But could also have been something quite routine (albeit against the agreed-upon intent/spirit of the law). But then when the media gets ahold of it, you KNOW it's their job to put out catchy titles. Why do think supermarket tabloids sell so many issues ? It's human nature to be drawn to a story with a "you got to be kidding" sort of bait-to-it. :) Then, sure: You've got to pull quotes to make the sides quite dramatic, etc....
 

Well from what I have read you are absolutely correct. However, as the officers supervisor pointed out the law wasn't written to stop children from building sand castles with metal tools. I think that is EVERYONE'S problem but I could be wrong. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. YES, he broke the law as many of us do because of the letter of the law.

But as for the spirit of the law, he did nothing wrong.

There are absolutely thousands of laws on the books because of certain problems with people. Also those thousands on the books can be enforced as per the letter of it, or ignored because they were written for certain instances like digging a hole to have sex on the beach, or ignored because the child has a small metal hoe and is not digging a hole for sex.

As an officer, you have DISCRETION as I have stated. Sometimes laws need to be overlooked because what they were written and what the situation is, are frankly two different things. When an officer investigates a situation, they are supposed to use common sense. I can't say as I agree with the officers choice of action but again I wasn't there and I don't know what actually transpired.

But you are absolutely right. The priest broke the law with his child. No argument.

But was the officer a little overzealous in doing her job? I think some including her supervisors tend to think yes.

Really you just touched on a huge underlying issue in this "discretion" application.....that being, "where does discretion end and discrimination begin?" So many officers, so many different individual mindsets. To me, this is one HUGE issue with the fair application of many written laws.
 

Beach Patrol, I wouldn't want that job. Let's look at the issue of alcohol on the beach and the ordinance in place prohibiting it. However, due to revenues that this tolerance of alcohol beings in, Beach Patrol is basically told to be reactive instead of being pro-active in the upholding of this ordinance. In other words, if it's not causing an issue then tolerate it.

But, it's this tolerance of the alcohol that eventually brings about the those negative events in the first place. So while there are laws in place prohibiting this alcohol on the beach it can easily be argued and established, once again, it is this tolerance and discretion that permits the worse alcohol offenses to even be possible. So here is the prime example of discretion concerning the application of written law, “give them an inch and many will shoot for that mile.”

In the end, there are hundreds upon hundreds of openly drinking violators on that beach in the summer, only a few, however, are selected for citation, or worse. Who is to blame? One could easily argue that the selective enforcement of written law is to blame. Because it is written law it can't be carried out with discretion, this discretion actually being discriminatory by its very nature.
 

A couple of observations.....first, the "ignorance is no excuse" statement.....that applies to LEOs also. It seems to me that if you're going to cite someone for an infraction, that you should at least know what the law is and how it's interpreted/applied. Second, you're only guilty of something when a judge (and subsequent appeals) says you are. Or you admit to it and pay your fine. A little story that I was a part of.......There was a right angle turn at the end of a residential area. No stop sign because there was only one way you could go. In the future it was going to be an intersection, but, that was still a few years off. One day, a stop sign appeared there with no prior warning. Sure enough, I drove right through it as I had done for many years. Not just one, but, 4 city policemen and their cars were stationed right around the corner where you couldn't see them. They were writing tickets as fast as they could get them done. One officer was directing cars to the curb, the others were busy wearing out their pens. In leaning up against one of the patrol cars and signing my ticket on the hood, (this was before they had to keep them running 24/7) it was stone cold. They had been there all morning and had a stack of tickets over 6 inches high. At least this car did, as, I could see them in the front seat. Anyway, they obviously weren't concerned about our "safety" as the road still hadn't been changed and there still was no need for the stop sign. If they were concerned, they would have stationed a car BEFORE the turn, and with lights flashing to warn us of this :dangerous" situation. No, they were there to write tickets. My friend who lived around the corner from there ran that sign at least 6 times in the next few days before he remembered to actually stop. When he did stop, he looked around and......what the heck..........where is the sign? They had taken it down! Oh, I forgot to mention.....this was the smallest legal sign they could have put up, it was 30 feet back from the corner, 20 feet to the right of the street (in the bushes to the right of the sidewalk), on top of an 10 foot post that was leaning away from the road. We decided to fight this and had our day in court. The day arrives, I'm sitting in the courtroom awaiting my turn. They called someone up, and the judge read the infraction he was accused of. What do you know but it was the exact same one I was accused of. The judge listened to what the guy had to say (basically what I was going to say), reduced the fine a bit, and sent him to the bailiff to pay it. He called the next person up to the box. The judge is reading the infraction, pauses, and says, "Hmmm, this is the same infraction, at the same time and place...." At this point, someone in the courtroom speaks up and says, "yeah, most of us are here for the same reason"! The judge looks up from his papers and asks, "How many of you are here for the same reason"? Over 95% of the courtroom raises their hand! After hearing more details about the signs and that it had been removed a few days later, he sent someone to get the first guy before he paid his fine, and told the rest of us that all charges were dropped. You could tell he was rather disgusted with the way the cops handled it and told them so in no uncertain terms! That drew a cheer from everyone in the courtroom! My point here is this, just because a cop is doing something in the letter of the law, and we were technically in violation of that law, doesn't make it right to impose and enforce that law on us. Intent can work both ways. The minister wasn't intending to break the law, negligent, or, "should have known better". It was a new law that was being enforced without sufficient warning. If metal tools at the beach was such a serious problem, why didn't they erect some signs there (like all the other ones prohibiting smoking, drinking, walking dogs, etc.)? The average person can't be expected to keep up with all the new laws that politicians can dream up. There should be a decent grace period when something is changed from legal, to illegal, and IMO on this case, not even applied when it doesn't make sense to do so. Police officers are supposedly trained to deal with the public. They know good and well that nobody is happy to receive a ticket, and that they're going to question and argue about it. Their job is to explain why they're giving the citation and try to keep the situation calm. Having to call backup on this type of offense, just seems strange and unnecessary with the story as I read it.But, as I and other have mentioned, we don't know the who story, and until we do, we should reserve judgment.
 

I think you guys are actually zeroing in on something that is, perhaps, less obvious in all of this. I wouldn't want to be any type of officer these days, not for a minute, and here's why....

Let us just examine a simple speeding violation regarding officer discretion. Is the driver, drunk, sober, white, black, Hispanic, male, female, attractive, ugly, young, old, educated, uneducated, polite, resistant, etc., etc., etc. In any of these cases, and the list is even much longer, what is the legal distinction between discretion and discrimination since they were all in violation of the same speed limit law? Now let us add to this that this discretion/discrimination is subject to the endless individual mindsets of thousands, if not millions, of officers. The original inquiry of violation was a violation of an existing speed limit law, however, it is now this officer's discretion alone that will determine who gets penalized and who won't. The minute this officer's discretion is permitted then written law is no longer the deciding factor and the guilty, in reality, has been randomly selected for other “individual personal reasons.” Yet these officers are told and trained to use discretion. So when does discretion become discrimination? I personally feel that this issue plays a huge part in the officer/authority public perceptions because it allows for inconsistent application of the law. Same violation, "I got a ticket and that other guy didn't." Or, "I got hassled and that other person didn't." This is never going to work....and it isn't working.
 

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