My Dowsing Test

[Jean310]

Hi Art - I could be way-way off and completely wrong, just that seems to make sense to me. All things have an electrical charge, whether positive or negative - and electrical charges are similar to magnetic charges - opposites attract, alikes repel. Seems logical to me! It is funny too - there are folks who don't believe metal detectors work, since after all, no buried coin is giving off any "lines" - yet the electronic gizmo does work. Is dowsing so different?

Oroblanco

Often, we hear reasons for why (or how) dowsing works (or should work), which utilize and are linked to common electrical or electronic terminology. Dowsing falls into the area of pseudo-science, and hence ---it is always a bad idea to try and explain how pseudo-scientific things work, using real scientific terms. To this point in time, no one has been able to make those associations stick, provide valid evidence for the associations.

It would be better if there were specific terminology for dowsing; like ~~~

"the L-rod moves because all objects in this world emit terizonides. These terizonides fly off in all directions and essentially go forever. The L-rod acts as a receiver to these terizonides and they travel along the surface of the L-rod and up into the dowser's brain, where they react with a chemical known as proxtamyth. This reaction causes muscles in the dowser's hand to move and hence the L-rod indicates."

Do you see the difference? No electronics engineer, no scientific investigator, no physics professor could EVER take issue with that explanation, because there are no terms used that conflict with the science and electronics that are already established and proven for the terms.

Of course, then, all that needs to be done is for the pseudo-scientific community to demonstrate the existence of terzonides and proxtamyth...... and BINGO! You have elevated the idea of dowsing to the realm of real science.

BTW, comparing the way metal detectors work with dowsing is not a good association. Something like comparing what causes a woman in a black robe to sit on a bench and belittle and ridicule other human beings, for capital gain ----to what causes a dog to bark at the Moon. There just isn't any comparison.

Jean

(you know, I never thought about it before, but perhaps the dog and Max know something about the Moon that we don't.... hmmmmmm) :::the plot thickens::: :::exit, stage left:::

 

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[Bill]

A question put to 1973 Nobel Peace Prize winner for physics, Professor Brian Josephson of Cambridge.” Is it a realistic question that man might be a thought-form in a universe that was made of thought?” His answer was, “It has been suggested by some people that the universe is made of thought. The scientist says everything is made up out of fields. It’s somewhat parallel that a field might be a thought and then you could arrive at the conclusion that everything is made of thought. Certainly things are not made up out of particles, so I think to show it was made up of thought, you’d need to show that something like a thought process was going on, and we really don’t have that picture yet. But we do have some sense that observation might help to construct reality, and that comes close to the idea that thought is involved in the nature of reality.”
A thought is energy that causes neurons in the brain to fire in certain patterns. That firing produces tiny currents along definite paths in the brain cortex that can be picked up with sensitive instruments through electrodes on the surface of the skull. This thought that starts out very tiny will or can develop into a full blown thought producing at least a 70 millivolt potential somewhere in the cortex. It fires the first neuron, which in turn causes others to fire in a certain sequence. In this universe, no energy is lost. If we can pick up the current produced by the thought outside of the head, it means that the energy of that thought was sent in the form of electromagnetic waves, and at the velocity of light into the environment. Since energy can’t be destroyed, that thought remains in the universe, and might or might not impinge on someone for whom it was created.
This brings up some interesting findings of mine from years of treasure hunting with different methods of locating lost or buried objects. When I used dowsing as a means of locating, I noticed certain remarkable patterns begin to emerge. After some failed attempts to find targets in areas that someone had taken me to, invariably someone would make a comment such as, “ I really THOUGHT that ----------------(whatever) was buried right there.” Or, “my Father THOUGHT that the French buried gold at this exact spot.” One perfect example of this was when a family called me to a small town in Arizona to find some gold coins buried by a husband and father. After getting a target location, the area was dug up in their garden with no gold coins revealed. The wife stated, “ I always THOUGHT that my husband buried those coins in the garden.”
While searching for a famous lost gold mine by map dowsing, two of us pinpointed the exact same location. After extensive searching of the area, no gold mine was located. Later, we uncovered a newspaper account of an attempt to locate the same lost mine by some townspeople. Quoted from the article, “ Mr. XYZ of this city, who knew the original finder, THINKS that the old lost mine is located on that ridge.” Exactly where we map dowsed the location.

Exit stage right.............. Sam
Bill

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey Oroblanco....I bought a metal detector back in thr 80's. It worked so well that I threw it in the river. My new one works as good as the operate is. Just like dowsing, I don't know how it works or why it works but I will use these tools. If I am fooling myself, what are the odds that I can beat the rules of chance guessing year after year...Art

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=SWR I think you meant the Van de Graaff generator, invented by Robert Jemison Van de Graaff in 1931 (Tesla sat-out on this one). Whole different beast than the Tesla Coil
***************
agreed swr, but how does the external conductor /accumulator completely absorb the "entire" electro-static charge from the inner emiter? Why no shareing? Or no Limit effectively? How can one volt be added to say 100,000?

Tropical Tramp

p.s. I agree the answer is simple, but post it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
I don't think it is fair to call dowsing "pseudo-science" nor wrong to try to understand it using ordinary science. If the electrical idea is SO far off, then why can you get that pie-plate demonstration on a high voltage source? If we dismiss the idea of dowsing as "pseudo-science" we can never understand how it works, nor PROVE that it does or does not work. There is nothing wrong in studying any phenomenon, whether it is a rare thing or something instantly repeatable. The dog sniffing cancer analogy is a fair example - for there were plenty of skeptics that did NOT believe that a dog could detect a cancerous growth. By comparison dowsing probably does not have the same levels of success, but if the rate of success is higher than pure chance, something is happening. By the way, read up on the remote viewing, those who participated in it have written some books, and the program is supposedly still being used but in quiet like most spying activities.

If the test of bringing a bucket of water close to a dowsing rod in a vise does not work, perhaps it is because we are not duplicating the relevant factors, for instance a human body has a considerable amount of water and an electrical charge - the vise almost certainly is NOT a match for the charge, the capacitance, resistance etc. The test has to include the correct factors, to match or the results are not meaningful.

Oroblanco

 

[Jean310]

By comparison dowsing probably does not have the same levels of success, but if the rate of success is higher than pure chance, something is happening.

You've hit on the very crux of the matter. Dowsing, when subjected to fair and controlled tests, has categorically NEVER produced results that are better than pure chance.

If the test of bringing a bucket of water close to a dowsing rod in a vise does not work, perhaps it is because we are not duplicating the relevant factors, for instance a human body has a considerable amount of water and an electrical charge - the vise almost certainly is NOT a match for the charge, the capacitance, resistance etc. The test has to include the correct factors, to match or the results are not meaningful.

Oroblanco

You are not the first to bring up the fact of the human body and the "charge" or "water content" as a factor in the equation. To dispel that factor, one only needs to connect a wire from the vise (holding the dowsing rod) and then let the dowser hold the end of the wire. Now, if(?) there is a charge involved, or some other force not yet discovered by conventional science, the vise will be at the same potential as the dowser. Try it. Wave the bucket of water around near the tip of the L-rod, it will remain stock still.

Jean

 

[aarthrj3811]

You've hit on the very crux of the matter. Dowsing, when subjected to fair and controlled tests, has categorically NEVER produced results that are better than pure chance

.
Right from Randi's web site....WHERES THE PROOF

You are not the first to bring up the fact of the human body and the "charge" or "water content" as a factor in the equation. To dispel that factor, one only needs to connect a wire from the vise (holding the dowsing rod) and then let the dowser hold the end of the wire. Now, if(?) there is a charge involved, or some other force not yet discovered by conventional science, the vise will be at the same potential as the dowser. Try it. Wave the bucket of water around near the tip of the L-rod, it will remain stock still.

Right on Jean...Millivolts will just zip to the vise and cause the rod to move....May be some of these hot shot Electronics Guys can explain the facts of life to her....Art

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI I will simply state that in my initial tests of dowsing to see if it warranted further study, I had my wife hide my wedding ring. I successfully found it 9 out of 10 times so either dowsing is working or telepathy, Both are flatly denied in here sooo?

p.s. NO she was not in the room, so the were no subconscious signals given.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Operational definitions are inherently difficult — arguably, even impossible — to apply to mental entities, because these latter are generally understood to be accessible only to the individual who experiences them and are therefore not independently verifiable."
=================
Of course I can dowse! It's quite easy, just not very useful. - Carl
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Tropical Tramp

 

[ClonedSIM]

You've hit on the very crux of the matter. Dowsing, when subjected to fair and controlled tests, has categorically NEVER produced results that are better than pure chance

.
Right from Randi's web site....WHERES THE PROOF

You are not the first to bring up the fact of the human body and the "charge" or "water content" as a factor in the equation. To dispel that factor, one only needs to connect a wire from the vise (holding the dowsing rod) and then let the dowser hold the end of the wire. Now, if(?) there is a charge involved, or some other force not yet discovered by conventional science, the vise will be at the same potential as the dowser. Try it. Wave the bucket of water around near the tip of the L-rod, it will remain stock still.

Right on Jean...Millivolts will just zip to the vise and cause the rod to move....May be some of these hot shot Electronics Guys can explain the facts of life to her....Art

Well, Art. If you weren't so closed-minded, you might have understood her statement.

Jean suggested that two rods in a vise would not move when exposed to a water source, and Oroblanco advised that an absent electrical source, in this case the dowser's body energy, would in fact keep the rods from moving. So Jean rebutted with the suggestion that the connection of two exposed wires running from a dowser's hands then connected to the rods in the vise would add this necessary electrical supply.

In essence, the dowser holds exposed wires, and those wires are attached to two dowsing rods. The dowsing rods are in a vise, which essentially means the rods are in the dowser's hands, but eliminates the "ideomotor" response you dislike so much. You should love this, Art!

 

[Jean310]

You've hit on the very crux of the matter. Dowsing, when subjected to fair and controlled tests, has categorically NEVER produced results that are better than pure chance

.
Right from Randi's web site....WHERES THE PROOF

You are not the first to bring up the fact of the human body and the "charge" or "water content" as a factor in the equation. To dispel that factor, one only needs to connect a wire from the vise (holding the dowsing rod) and then let the dowser hold the end of the wire. Now, if(?) there is a charge involved, or some other force not yet discovered by conventional science, the vise will be at the same potential as the dowser. Try it. Wave the bucket of water around near the tip of the L-rod, it will remain stock still.

Right on Jean...Millivolts will just zip to the vise and cause the rod to move....May be some of these hot shot Electronics Guys can explain the facts of life to her....Art

Well, Art. If you weren't so closed-minded, you might have understood her statement.

Jean suggested that two rods in a vise would not move when exposed to a water source, and Oroblanco advised that an absent electrical source, in this case the dowser's body energy, would in fact keep the rods from moving. So Jean rebutted with the suggestion that the connection of two exposed wires running from a dowser's hands then connected to the rods in the vise would add this necessary electrical supply.

In essence, the dowser holds exposed wires, and those wires are attached to two dowsing rods. The dowsing rods are in a vise, which essentially means the rods are in the dowser's hands, but eliminates the "ideomotor" response you dislike so much. You should love this, Art!

I applaud you AF, you have more patience than I do. When I read Art's cryptic response, I thought about trying to clear up his confusion, but then decided it was probably not worth it. Thanks for giving it a shot, but there is no guarantee it will sink in.



Jean

 

[ClonedSIM]

I've just had enough practice with Art to understand how his mind works.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI OK so you do not believe aa's theories. Since no-one knows exactly how it works yet - to my knowledge - everyone has their own theories. Most will fall by the wayside eventually. but what does this have to with actual dowsing?

If their theories help them to dowse, so what if they are correct or not?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Operational definitions are inherently difficult — arguably, even impossible — to apply to mental entities, because these latter are generally understood to be accessible only to the individual who experiences them and are therefore not independently verifiable."
=================
Of course I can dowse! It's quite easy, just not very useful. - Carl
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


Tropical Tramp

 

[ClonedSIM]

HI OK so you do not believe aa's theories. Since no-one knows exactly how it works yet - to my knowledge - everyone has their own theories. Most will fall by the wayside eventually. but what does this have to with actual dowsing?

If their theories help them to dowse, so what if they are correct or not?

Tropical Tramp

There's the inherent problem with dowsing and it's sources. No one follows the same set of dowsing rules.

Let's for a moment say dowsing is a working thing, an actual concept that works. It would have a source, a root, that caused it to work. Just like everything else, it should be a stimulus/response reaction. IE: If I walk holding these rods, then they will cross when I'm standing on a coin.

In order for this to be anywhere near the realm of science, this should be the reaction for almost everyone. There are exceptions to most rules, so I won't be all-inclusive here, but it only stands to reason.

If you have a person whose rods cross when the step on a coin, a person whose rods uncross when they step on a coin, a person whose rods will only cross when they are 50 feet away from a coin, it's pretty clear that all that is happening is ideomotor with different conclusions drawn from the results.

In simpler terms, since the theories either fall by the wayside eventually or are in direct contradiction with another theory or are simply too far-fetched for anyone but their creator to believe, what reasonable alternative are we left with? That dowsing is only a concept with no evidence, no cause, and no scientific backing.

 

[aarthrj3811]

In essence, the dowser holds exposed wires, and those wires are attached to two dowsing rods. The dowsing rods are in a vise, which essentially means the rods are in the dowser's hands, but eliminates the "ideomotor" response you dislike so much. You should love this, Art!

Hey af1733 and Jean.....The question should be...is there enough body energy to operate the Dowsing Rods through the wires. Your little test will prove there is not. Besides that little fact you have also "baited the rods" with copper from the wires, and a big hunk of steel and you expect them to respond to water. That test is almost as smart as Randi's and Carls...Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

In essence, the dowser holds exposed wires, and those wires are attached to two dowsing rods. The dowsing rods are in a vise, which essentially means the rods are in the dowser's hands, but eliminates the "ideomotor" response you dislike so much. You should love this, Art!

Hey af1733 and Jean.....The question should be...is there enough body energy to operate the Dowsing Rods through the wires. Your little test will prove there is not. Besides that little fact you have also "baited the rods" with copper from the wires, and a big hunk of steel and you expect them to respond to water. That test is almost as smart as Randi's and Carls...Art

Soooooo......use a wooden block with holes drilled in it and thin steel wire, or a metal the same as that of the rods, wrapped around the base of the rods. Why do you insist on making things so difficult?

 

[Peg Leg]

i WILL TELL YOU WHAT I WILL DO JUAT FOR THE HECK OF IT.
I will take whatever test you can come up with BUT I will do it from my home here in Florida and not have to move anywhere.
All you need to do is place a silver coin on your property-ANYWHERE and give me a drawing of your property. To make sure this is up and up I will also required that someone else is there to verify that you actually placed the coin on your property and sign a Notarized statement to this fact and the coins cannot be placed above the ground.
In order to do a proper search I will even go so far as providing the silver for this TEST.
NOW YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU WOULD PAY $25,000.00USD IF i CAN DO THIS TEST?
I know that sometimes things like this turns into a RIPOFF. So how about this. You put the $25,000USD into an escrow account and then give me the name of a PERSON that can act as the JUDGE.
This JUDGE will see where you have placed this silver. Once this has been done you will NOT move the silver to anyother place.
Once I have completed this TEST I will send the results to this JUDGE and he/she will take my results and verify if I am right or wrong. If I am correct the JUDGE will cause the $25,000USD TO BE REMOVED FROM ESCROW and sent to me.
In fact I would prefer that the JUDGE place the silver without you even knowing the location. This way there can be no doubt that anything fishy was done.
The JUDGE CANNOT be a personal friend or a relative but must be a HONEST PERSON.
Well what do you think of this.
This TEST will be conducted not 5 feet away but several hundred miles away.
Think about this AND POST YOUR RESPONSE right here on this forum.
Peg leg

 

[ClonedSIM]

i WILL TELL YOU WHAT I WILL DO JUAT FOR THE HECK OF IT.
I will take whatever test you can come up with BUT I will do it from my home here in Florida and not have to move anywhere.
All you need to do is place a silver coin on your property-ANYWHERE and give me a drawing of your property. To make sure this is up and up I will also required that someone else is there to verify that you actually placed the coin on your property and sign a Notarized statement to this fact and the coins cannot be placed above the ground.
In order to do a proper search I will even go so far as providing the silver for this TEST.
NOW YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU WOULD PAY $25,000.00USD IF i CAN DO THIS TEST?
I know that sometimes things like this turns into a RIPOFF. So how about this. You put the $25,000USD into an escrow account and then give me the name of a PERSON that can act as the JUDGE.
This JUDGE will see where you have placed this silver. Once this has been done you will NOT move the silver to anyother place.
Once I have completed this TEST I will send the results to this JUDGE and he/she will take my results and verify if I am right or wrong. If I am correct the JUDGE will cause the $25,000USD TO BE REMOVED FROM ESCROW and sent to me.
In fact I would prefer that the JUDGE place the silver without you even knowing the location. This way there can be no doubt that anything fishy was done.
The JUDGE CANNOT be a personal friend or a relative but must be a HONEST PERSON.
Well what do you think of this.
This TEST will be conducted not 5 feet away but several hundred miles away.
Think about this AND POST YOUR RESPONSE right here on this forum.
Peg leg

You should forward this to Carl to make sure he sees it.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=JudyH link=

There's the inherent problem with dowsing and it's sources. No one follows the same set of dowsing rules.
************
Why is there suposed to be a set of rules when no-one can even define it yet?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let's for a moment say dowsing is a working thing, an actual concept that works. It would have a source, a root, that caused it to work. Just like everything else, it should be a stimulus/response reaction. IE: If I walk holding these rods, are exceptions to most rules, so I won't be all-inclusive here, but it only stands to reason.

on with another theory That dowsing is only a concept with no evidence, no cause, and no scientific backing.
***********
So how and when was matter first made?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Jose, mi love.....Bible again....

#7 - Explore a Binary Consequence Tree

I have lost hope of ever getting an Original Thought from this one.... B & B
***************
Unfortunately -------sigh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Operational definitions are inherently difficult — arguably, even impossible — to apply to mental entities, because these latter are generally understood to be accessible only to the individual who experiences them and are therefore not independently verifiable."
=================
Of course I can dowse! It's quite easy, just not very useful. - Carl
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


Tropical Tramp


[/quote]

 

[ClonedSIM]

[=JudyH link=

There's the inherent problem with dowsing and it's sources. No one follows the same set of dowsing rules.
************
Why is there suposed to be a set of rules when no-one can even define it yet?

Tropical Tramp

How can you even pretend dowsing has anything at all to do with science if it down not follow some set pattern? Almost everything follows a definable or nearly predictable pattern, except for dowsing?

Let's for a moment say dowsing is a working thing, an actual concept that works. It would have a source, a root, that caused it to work. Just like everything else, it should be a stimulus/response reaction. IE: If I walk holding these rods, are exceptions to most rules, so I won't be all-inclusive here, but it only stands to reason.

on with another theory That dowsing is only a concept with no evidence, no cause, and no scientific backing.
***********
So how and when was matter first made?

Tropical Tramp

I wish you could cut and paste my posts as well as you try to steer everything off topic.....

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey af1733...Change the subject real quick...Heres some one that has challenged your heros. There you go hiding so you don't have to make excuses...