Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

I think that in the very near future we will all have a much better understanding of objects like this one and their potential connection to the Superstitions.

But, for now:

TORTILLA FLAT THEN & NOW
STORY OF THE IRON CROSS
(From the Tortilla Flat archives)
L.L. Lombardi - Lois M. Potter-Sanders

"According to a prospector working the mining claims in the area, the cross was found in 1952 in the Superstition Mountains. It is reported to have come from what the early Spanish Jesuit Missionary adventurers called the San Pedro Mine.

The San Pedro gold mine in 1748 was worked with extraordinary success."




Story of the Iron Cross
Author Unknown

"This heavy Iron Crucifix, in a wooden barrel, sat at the end of the bar in Tortilla Flat's, Superstition Saloon for years.

One story went like this: "A prospector working mining claims in the Superstition Mountains around 1952 found the cross hidden in a cave. It was reported to have come from what the early Spanish Jesuit Missionaries called the San Pedro Mine around 1748.

Another story went like this: "Owner Dave Moss, 1974-1980, along with 6 year old nephew, Dino Porter, were hiking the 'Supe's' and found this cross in a cave. Sure they had discovered a fantastic artifact they toted it back to the Flat."

According to Dave's wife, Barbara, and Dino's mother, Judy, the more times the story was told, the more fantastic it became. To their horror, historians from Arizona State University took the cross and actually authenticated it. The reason they were horrified was because the knew the truth. (True story finally told in 2004)

Dave was a great storyteller, but he actually bought the Iron Cross, which was made in Mexico, from Domingus Brothers in Gradalupe. Poor little Dino heard the tale of his finding the cross so many times, he started to believe he did."




Difficult to know the truth here but if ASU did examine it, there would be a record. Also, the Domingus Brothers connection should be researched. It's a fascinating object for sure.

All,

It seems to me that Barbara's story is the most likely. If anyone knows the truth, it would be her.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[cactusjumper]

All,

It turns out that the "Domingus Brothers in Gradalupe" did do "cast" products, such as this:



I don't know if they kept records back as far as when the Tortilla Flat Cross was produced, but contacting the company might be the next step in this little puzzle.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

All,

It turns out that the "Domingus Brothers in Gradalupe" did do "cast" products, such as this:



I don't know if they kept records back as far as when the Tortilla Flat Cross was produced, but contacting the company might be the next step in this little puzzle.

Joe Ribaudo

Good example Joe.
Also imbued with Christian religious symbolism. Ladder/heart/crescent moon and spear of Longinus for example.
One of the avenues I followed during my own research into the "artifact" led me to subjects pertaining to the symbols used on Irish Penal Crosses.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=iris...VmuYMKHa2hDCAQsAQIIw&biw=1160&bih=596#imgrc=_

 

[Azquester]

CJ the party pooper.

Don't you just like all the artifact deception? I for one just love doing research for practice. Don't you?

It reminds me of my Uncle laughing as he told his stories when we were young. It always ended with a flock of wild geese flying off some where..then we would chase them.

 

[Azquester]

Bill, what I was trying to say is that tortilla flat isn't just a roadside cafe. It is known worldwide and tens of thousands of people visit every year. There is no way that thing hasn't been checked out.and I hear what you say about the locals not being expert enough to identify the thing but I'm sure they know people that are.I just think you guys are wasting valuable time on this thing when there are other things to be investigated. Common sense says no way there is a Jesuit artifact on sitting in tortilla flat, I used to know the man that owned tortilla flat and if it was real he would have capitalized on it long ago

I saw the early pictures of Tortilla Flat before the fire. You're right it's not just a café. And, you're right it's not worth investigation at this point.

More pictures of strange phenomenon in the Supers are needed here. Not associated with mining or Jesuits.

I found this the other day.



Black Legion?

Once you step off that trail you're in no mans land.

 

[somehiker]

Bill, what I was trying to say is that tortilla flat isn't just a roadside cafe. It is known worldwide and tens of thousands of people visit every year. There is no way that thing hasn't been checked out.and I hear what you say about the locals not being expert enough to identify the thing but I'm sure they know people that are.I just think you guys are wasting valuable time on this thing when there are other things to be investigated. Common sense says no way there is a Jesuit artifact on sitting in tortilla flat, I used to know the man that owned tortilla flat and if it was real he would have capitalized on it long ago

He probably did capitalize on it in his own way, one bottle of beer at a time. Just like others who sell their museum tickets or books or newspaper articles.
It's an authentic piece of Mexican religious art, so why shouldn't us guys be interested in knowing more about it, and how it found it's way to Tortilla Flat ?
Feel free to suggest something more important to discuss, and I assure you that we will find the time to discuss your submission.
This thread is a good place for it IMO.

 

[Azquester]

The gold gliding or plating showing on the bottom of the base and upper piece pin give away it's time line. Which is modern within the last 130 years or so. I dare say it's an art revival piece or Dominguez Brothers. The casting is an upside down clover which suggests Schulte-Ufer as a possible forger. With no letters visible it is impossible to find the maker.

 

[somehiker]

I don't believe in the Jesuit angle.
A little bit too paganistic looking for their sensibilities during that era, IMO.
I also thing this "forgery" talk is way overboard, since a forgery entails a copy of something genuine, which has been misrepresented as an original, usually of considerable value.
But if you can produce a photo of such an "original" Bill, I'll gladly buy into your theory.
I still suspect this is the material it was cast from....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_metal

And with the lower part done in a sand mold of stacked mold boxes in order to achieve the complex shape.
Here's an example of a fairly simple casting setup, using only an upper and lower mold box, similar to what was probably used for the upper part, which has some of the terminology.

http://www.metals-china.com/blog.fi...cesses-used-in-the-manufacture-of-parts-6.jpg

Note the "pouring basin" and "sprue", which resembles the protrusion on the Tortilla Flat casting that some had compared to a "railroad spike".
Here's an example of a 3-box sand mold....

http://www.osspvalve.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/camlock_coupling-sand_casting.jpg

From the side views of the casting, I would say the operation was low tech and relatively primitive, evident by the misalignment of the pattern parts that were used, or shifting of the sand itself during the pour.

That the pouring basin and sprue were never removed from this casting ( if that's what they are ), as would normally be the case, suggests that this object was indeed "purchased" or "given/donated" in an "unfinished" condition, unlike the upper "crucifix" part.

 

[gollum]

I saw the early pictures of Tortilla Flat before the fire. You're right it's not just a café. And, you're right it's not worth investigation at this point.

More pictures of strange phenomenon in the Supers are needed here. Not associated with mining or Jesuits.

I found this the other day.

View attachment 1281157

Black Legion?

Once you step off that trail you're in no mans land.

WOW! You found that the "other day?" I doubt it is Black Legion, because I don't believe the N-Deh (Apache) have any tribes that live in Libya. See that picture is from a cave in Libya called Wadi Sura. You must have taken a great risk dodging ISIL and Al Queda Terrorists to get that picture! Congrats!

Here is the article (but I think you might already know about this ;-):

These Ancient 'Hand Prints' Were Not Made by Human Hands

Mike

 

[releventchair]

I don't believe in the Jesuit angle.
A little bit too paganistic looking for their sensibilities during that era, IMO.
I also thing this "forgery" talk is way overboard, since a forgery entails a copy of something genuine, which has been misrepresented as an original, usually of considerable value.
But if you can produce a photo of such an "original" Bill, I'll gladly buy into your theory.
I still suspect this is the material it was cast from....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_metal

And with the lower part done in a sand mold of stacked mold boxes in order to achieve the complex shape.
Here's an example of a fairly simple casting setup, using only an upper and lower mold box, similar to what was probably used for the upper part, which has some of the terminology.

http://www.metals-china.com/blog.fi...cesses-used-in-the-manufacture-of-parts-6.jpg

Note the "pouring basin" and "sprue", which resembles the protrusion on the Tortilla Flat casting that some had compared to a "railroad spike".
Here's an example of a 3-box sand mold....

http://www.osspvalve.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/camlock_coupling-sand_casting.jpg

From the side views of the casting, I would say the operation was low tech and relatively primitive, evident by the misalignment of the pattern parts that were used, or shifting of the sand itself during the pour.

That the pouring basin and sprue were never removed from this casting ( if that's what they are ), as would normally be the case, suggests that this object was indeed "purchased" or "given/donated" in an "unfinished" condition, unlike the upper "crucifix" part.

Agreed.
The round protrusion may be a sprue left from gate. If real smooth it was filed probably.
Sand should have stayed in place due to a binder. Clay perhaps?or something local with similar characteristics.
Foundry I was in used acid and resin with the convenience of modern materials availability.

IF a pattern was used, likely wood , there may well have been others cast.

When bell metal is considered, one offs of other items for a local client or the facility itself could be suggested.
They already had the knowhow and material.

 

[Weaversneedle]

WOW! You found that the "other day?" I doubt it is Black Legion, because I don't believe the N-Deh (Apache) have any tribes that live in Libya. See that picture is from a cave in Libya called Wadi Sura. You must have taken a great risk dodging ISIL and Al Queda Terrorists to get that picture! Congrats!

Here is the article (but I think you might already know about this ;-):

These Ancient 'Hand Prints' Were Not Made by Human Hands

Mike

Nice job Mike

 

[Azquester]

WOW! You found that the "other day?" I doubt it is Black Legion, because I don't believe the N-Deh (Apache) have any tribes that live in Libya. See that picture is from a cave in Libya called Wadi Sura. You must have taken a great risk dodging ISIL and Al Queda Terrorists to get that picture! Congrats!

Here is the article (but I think you might already know about this ;-):

These Ancient 'Hand Prints' Were Not Made by Human Hands

Mike

I didn't say where I found it did I.

But, I'm glad your researching for practice it's so fulfilling isn't it?

 

[Azquester]

I'm glad you all got my point.

Deception is in the eye of the beholder. Or in this case the eyes of the people that research something that's known to be a fake by the poster. Throwing up artifacts that you know are not genuine Superstition finds is what this subject is about. IE: The Religious casting. Chasing after someone's else's false narrative.

I did it now someone else is doing it.

Anyone can throw up any picture and claim it came from anywhere. It's just a picture. An Artifact that is known to be false as an ancient piece was presented for everyone to look at or research. It was and is a waste of time. I almost fell for it and traveled up there for a look. You're lucky all you had to do is search the internet like I did for that picture of the hand. Not so for the Cast Cross. Poor Hal flew back all that way just for a look at it only to find it was a wasted trip.

At least someone else wasted their time looking for those hand prints just to prove my point. With out air fare and travel time involved.

 

[releventchair]

So what Bill?
A curio/relic in the area gets poked at with a stick in an attempt to find a provenance.
Perhaps it is a state away born.

At least it is tangible and on site vs a rabbit out of cyberspace from half a world away.
Lure (curiosity is a good one with a variety of ways to present it) , Bait ..Trap.
Always when effective containing a diversion .
When the diversion affects you ,you are most vulnerable.

Worse things a guy could be doing than havin look see's at an eye catcher that appeals to him.. (unless she's married).

 

[EarnieP]

Bill, when you said "upside down clover" were you referring to the possible trademark Hal found?
(Thanks again for all the pictures, Hal.)
If so, it looks more like the outline of a dove or small bird to me.

I did like the 'Hands' pic Bill, interesting.
Who knew it was lizard paws, well besides Gollum.
Interesting info from both.

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

The only thing on the crucifix that I thought might be a mark:

View attachment 1281215
​

Hal,

If it's a maker's mark, I would assume it would be larger......and clearer.

I believe it to be exactly what the wife of the "finder" wrote. Nothing more, nothing less.

Take care,

Joe

 

[EarnieP]

Perhaps the Mexican artisan was a Peralta who deliberately created this pleasant diversion to get you Dutchman hunters to spend time pondering instead of digging?
Might be working.

 

[somehiker]

Hal,

If it's a maker's mark, I would assume it would be larger......and clearer.

I believe it to be exactly what the wife of the "finder" wrote. Nothing more, nothing less.

Take care,

Joe

Agreed

And all this has been a good example of how contributions from other sources can help us to weed the garden.
While it may be an interesting piece of art, at least 65 years old, and prompted some good conversation, it also has nothing to do with the Jesuits or the Sups, other than TF being where it was and can still be seen.
Anyone got anything else they're wondering about ?

 

[EarnieP]

How about the meaning of the Spanish word Peralta being, 'to bank'?

 

[cactusjumper]

WOW! You found that the "other day?" I doubt it is Black Legion, because I don't believe the N-Deh (Apache) have any tribes that live in Libya. See that picture is from a cave in Libya called Wadi Sura. You must have taken a great risk dodging ISIL and Al Queda Terrorists to get that picture! Congrats!

Here is the article (but I think you might already know about this ;-):

These Ancient 'Hand Prints' Were Not Made by Human Hands

Mike

Mike,

Some things will never change.

"More pictures of strange phenomenon in the Supers are needed here. Not associated with mining or Jesuits.

I found this the other day."

Realllly!

Nice try,

Joe Ribaudo