Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[somehiker]

Hi Bill:

"Cast Iron doesn't cut it chips. Just like when you drill it. It breaks small pieces off as it's to brittle."

You weren't specific, so I offered another opinion with some examples.
"Your results may vary", so it's not really worth arguing about, since this piece is obviously cast from an alloy of some kind. Bronze, brass or copper in the mix would account for the "brassy" appearance of the feet, as well as the patina seen in the color photos. The cut in the photo shows no evidence of chipping, and the section appears clean with little or no contamination. So the piece is, as I said before, likely a sand casting made of some material such as that used for making bells. That a primary witness, the wife of the original "finder", has said that he purchased it from a foundry, makes it neither "ancient" or "Jesuit" and from somewhere other than a mine or shrine in the Superstitions.

 

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[somehiker]

I can't believe you guys are still harping over this thing

Would you rather we were "harping over" nasty PM's....?

" And believe me if you knew What was being uncovered in Texas you'd
Probably commit suicide. "

 

[releventchair]

Cut lines / scoring nearly straight, but vary in angle, so likely a common hack saw with a fairly coarse tooth blade.
Not sure when the first saws capable of cutting iron appeared, but it may have been prior to the 19th century.
Cast iron is a little softer and easier to cut than forged or wrought iron and steel, but thicker sections still tend to bind the blade during cutting.
Changing the angle while you are cutting helps keep the work from pinching the blade.
There were many variants of metal-cutting saws, both manual and powered by the mid 1800's.
That lower section is definitely a strange piece of work, even if it was originally intended for something else unrelated to the upper part.

You've seen the round cup wheels on air driven grinders for use on iron castings I'm confident.
A gate knocked off with a hammer could have left a high edge that was hit with a similar grinder/wheel.
Crudely though ,like piecework or tolerance allowed , and not fine finishing.

 

[Weaversneedle]

Would you rather we were "harping over" nasty PM's....?

" And believe me if you knew What was being uncovered in Texas you'd
Probably commit suicide. "

I guess someone like you always has to have something to harp on , so harp away

 

[somehiker]

Some Hiker, I'll have to dig it up from my scattered files.
'
This is on 'perhaps a 45* slope

Looking forward to seeing it.
Millions of years of erosion can leave breccia pipes exposed on any slope. I know of one place in the Supes with several pipes on a single mountainside of about that general angle. Some sampling of the perimeters had been done where the quartz is abundant, but it didn't look as though any serious mining or excavation had been done at that particular location that I could see.

 

[somehiker]

I guess someone like you always has to have something to harp on , so harp away

Ok, I'll bite....

So, what makes you think anything found in Texas would make ME think of suicide
when the really good stuff is in Arizona ?

 

[Weaversneedle]

Ok, I'll bite....

So, what makes you think anything found in Texas would make ME think of suicide
when the really good stuff is in Arizona ?

Because you are completely obsessed with the stone maps and you are overcome with jealousy over the fact that someone else is in charge of the Tumlinsons papers and maps and not you

 

[somehiker]

Because you are completely obsessed with the stone maps and you are overcome with jealousy over the fact that someone else is in charge of the Tumlinsons papers and maps and not you

Not only are you off course, your not even on the same map as I am.
And all of this is just a hobby to me, like golf is for others. While I might slice one into the rough or miss a putt now and then, I don't take it that seriously.
Jealousy doesn't do much for me, and it won't help anyone find anything important out there anyway, so why even bring it up ?
My focus has always been on what and where the stone maps may apply to out there, rather than how they came to be and what was or is being said about them now. That focus has expanded to include other stones, documents and maps as well, which cannot be sourced to Travis in any way.

But having said that, I'm also interested in the bigger picture regarding the Tumlinsons, and have encouraged both Ryan and Gary before him to go all out in their own focus areas of research into that part of the history as well. For me, that helps in understanding many of the inconsistencies in the "legend" as well as why certain things in the field may not be so simple to locate and analyze. This past year, Ryan has gone to a great deal of effort and expense to obtain all he has so far, and certainly deserves to take charge of the papers, photos, and maps he has gathered. So rather than being envious of his accomplishments, I am grateful for what he has shared and continues to share elsewhere for our consideration, much as I did with the photo of the "iron crucifix" in this discussion thread, and with the many photos, ideas and opinions I have contributed on other topics over the years.

 

[EarnieP]

EarnieP,
theironcross

Hello Hal,
Thanks for the link, I somehow managed to overlook it until tonight.
Terrific pictures, very detailed.
Thanks again.

The longer I look at your many highly detailed pictures, the more interesting this oddly made piece becomes. I know it has been creditably attributed to the Mexican tourist shop, but the darn thing is drawing me in...

 

[somehiker]

Hal:

Ben's stories are based on the Tucson Artifacts, which he and a few others credit to a large party of early Christians who crossed the Atlantic to North America in the first century AD. They were tested and found to be made of lead and antimony, common in the 19th and 20th centuries and used for moveable type and lead-acid batteries, amongst other things. They were also found on land adjacent to a number of abandoned lime kilns, which had also been used as a town dump for some time prior to their discovery. Because of these and other factors, including the Latin texts and symbology used on them, I do not consider them authentic in any way, nor do I see any possible connection to the "Iron Cross" or the Superstitions, let alone every other legend pertaining to the range which Ben has attempted to incorporate into his fantasies.

There has been enough evidence of mining and crude metal refining found within the mountains to indicate a pre-anglo presence and "local" industry which employed both arrastres and smelters to produce "something" out there prior to the later 1800's, but certainly not 1st. or even 10th. century. Even the ruins within the range attributed to the Hohokam and Salado do not generally date back further than about 1000-1450 CE, although some of the smaller examples of pit houses etc. could be older.

This later pre-anglo group, Spanish Colonial or Mexican, being familiar with gold and silver refining and smelting, may have used what otherwise would be considered dross to formulate and cast other metal objects as well. We know that the gold and silver found in the Sups is commonly matrixed with copper and iron sulfides and it's also likely IMO, that zinc and tin are also present in some quantity. Both brass and bronze are alloys of copper and zinc and/or tin, so I consider this scenario the only "localy" ( manufactured ) possibility that makes any sense at all.

 

[Azquester]

Weaversneedle,
Are you at all familiar with mining/metals specifically, brass?
What about local history?

There is a very specific reason why the Iron Cross should be tested and researched but, before anyone can hope to explain it to you, you would have to have a basic understanding of these things. You might, which would be great.

If you do, and if you seriously want to understand why its worth harping over, I could explain it to you with one very old word.

View attachment 1284316


View attachment 1284317
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Looks like the Gonad God lost his snake.

 

[gollum]

Looks like the Gonad God lost his snake.

The Gonad God is a grower not a shower! HAHAHA

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Correction Some Hiker / Weaversneedle """ MEXICO !! """", naturally.

 

[EarnieP]

Another new (for me) tidbit of information I've come across following the related and unrelated leads from this 'artifact' is the Tumbaga alloy. Interesting mixture, both the alloy and the history.

Here's a start;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbaga

 

[releventchair]

Pretty fine dust of copper in today's Az. production.
A Michigan native struck up a conversation regarding the raw copper shown on a tour.
Yep, samples were from Michigan.
Not all copper throughout history in Az. was leach processed ...(?) but still a hard profit to get it out... pre railroad.

 

[EarnieP]

Thanks Hal, I will definitely check out ORICHALCUM.

I found a book 'Tumbaga Silver', by Armstrong listed on Amazon.
You can read quite a bit of the book there in the "inside book" feature, all very interesting, esp chap 2.
Seems Quanine is another word from South America for the same general type 'alloy' as Tumbaga.
I read somewhere (was it from you or online?) that the Biblical references to "mountain gold" may also have a 'natural occurring brass' element to it.

Again, thanks for the heads up, I will check it out

 

[EarnieP]

Hal,
I did notice it mentioned that orichalcum had the high zinc content, and other metals in different samples.

I hesitate to get too immersed in this sidetrack, as I know many others don't find this as interesting as the few still following these exchanges. "What's this got to do with the Lost Dutchman?" But disregarding that for now, I'll pass on these related finds from;

'The Natural History of the Bible' by Thaddeus Mason Harris D.D.
Actually has an even longer title but I didn't want to scare off even more.

These are not Biblical quotes specifically,(I'm not trying to preach to anyone) they are writings about Biblical quotes.

[From the Natural History book]

"In Ezra viii. 27 are mentioned "two vessels of copper, precious as gold." ...

"It is more probable, however, that this brass was not from Corinth, but from Persia or India which ARISTOTLE describes in these terms."

"It is said there is in India a brass so shining, so pure, so free from tarnish [!], that its colour differs nothing from that of gold."... Aristotle

"Bochart is of the opinion that this is the CHASMAL of Ezek. i. 27, the XANXONIBAVOV of Rev. i. 15, and the ELECTRUM of the ancients." Mr Harmer quotes ...Sir John Chardin's reference to a "mixt metal" in the East & highly esteemed there...
This composition might have been as old as the time of Ezra. ..."

Mr. Harmer observes, "CULMBAC is this metal, composed of gold and copper"... "I have seen something of it, and gold is not of so lively and brilliant a colour."

"...from the Greek word XPERIXNXOS, which means 'mountain copper', I suppose a natural mineral [!] intended by what the Latins call ORICHALCUM and AURICHALCUM ... the same with XANXONICAVOS, 'ore of mount Lebnon'..."
-----------------------------

I may have (most likely) misspelled those Greek words as I'm not all that familiar with their alphabet.

Sorry if I bored some. I know it didn't get anyone a step closer to locating the LD, but maybe we mined some knowledge instead, always useful.

 

[somehiker]

I'm not so sure the bearded and scowling figure depicted on upper part is that of Jesus or of some saint or martyr .
Could it instead be that of a sailor, wearing a watch cap and loose fitting pants ?
He also appears to be holding tools of some kind in each hand.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/432c78_8107fc16d3b1459b8ec45254a4fd3c11.jpg/v1/fill/w_357,h_476,al_c,q_90,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/432c78_8107fc16d3b1459b8ec45254a4fd3c11.jpg

 

[EarnieP]

I'm not so sure the bearded and scowling figure depicted on upper part is that of Jesus or of some saint or martyr .
Could it instead be that of a sailor, wearing a watch cap and loose fitting pants ?
He also appears to be holding tools of some kind in each hand.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/432c78_8107fc16d3b1459b8ec45254a4fd3c11.jpg/v1/fill/w_357,h_476,al_c,q_90,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/432c78_8107fc16d3b1459b8ec45254a4fd3c11.jpg

The hands do appear to be grasping something. And there is also an absence of the cross itself.
Maybe it is a depiction of some other.
Very strong arms, maybe Sampson between the columns, or Atlas holding up the (missing) world?

SH, what do you think about the layers along the edges on the back side of the artifact? Hal's pic #0470

 

[markmar]

Hal

From what I have read the bronze ( copper + tin ) was discovered in about 4000 BC and the brass ( copper + zink ) in about 200 BC .
Before 4000 BC was used for decoration and other stuff only copper . So the Atlantis , in regards with anyone's theory , could has only copper or bronze ornaments .
The " OREICHALCHOS " word was misundertood from the New Age and was confused in the translations . This word in ancient Greek means " Copper Mount " and has not relation with bronze or brass . The first and the bigest " Copper Mount " in the ancient times was in Cyprus .
Many Greek historians declared how the Troy war was for the copper and tin resources which were in ambundance in the Troy region .