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The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

Hello Cryptid. You've given us a lot to digest. Family histories from past centuries are often laced with inaccuracies and gaps that are very difficult to verify. I know this from researching my own family tree. Thomas Masterman Hardy had two brothers and five sisters. Who's to say that Pamela couldn't have been a descendant of one of Hardy's sisters? Since Hardy was appointed the first Baronet, even his female descendants would carry on the family name. Or that the 'Pamela' name may have been a place marker for some other unknown or as yet unidentified Hardy relative? Also, author George Edmunds does believe that the charts do lead to a secret island and a hidden treasure. ..Just not Captain Kidd's.
If Pamela Hardy existed there would be birth or death records. None exist. Even more problematic is Hardy was said to have lived in Eastbourne, but there are no records of her living in that town either. Nothing. The absence of evidence can be considered evidence of absence. She was made up to fabricate "pedigree notes" (records of ownership) of Lord Nelson and Captain Kidd objects to try to pass them off as authentic relics with a provenance tracing back to Nelson/Kidd. A fake pedigree came with the Hardy Chest when it was sold to Palmer by Cutler, Wilkins quotes. Not only was Hardy made up, but Ned Ward as well. The fake pedigree of the chest:

Ned Ward (shipmate of Captain Kidd) -> Sold by the great-grandson (unnamed) of Ward, to Captain Thomas Masterman Hardy -> [T. M. Hardy passed on the chest to his brother], bequeathed to his great-niece Pamela Hardy by John Hardy (brother of Captain T. M. Hardy and great-grandfather of Pamela), sold to Arthur Hill Cutler (~1930).

Who is Ned Ward? Why is there no historical evidence of him existing if he was a shipmate of Kidd? As I noted in an earlier post, there was a satirist and humorist of that same name but he was not a shipmate of Kidd (although he wrote about Captain Kidd in his The Wooden World Dissected). The person (most likely Cutler) who made up this fake pedigree took the name from the humorist and had fun making it and the fact the pedigree starts with Ned Ward is a clue it is not meant to be taken seriously by the hoaxer. As I pointed out in my earlier posts, it is not possible John Hardy bequeathed anything (including the chest) to his great-granddaughter Pamela Hardy since he had no descendants; he was a childless bachelor who left all his property in his will to his sisters. If you then look at other things in the pedigree, there are problems with the timeline of ownership. For example, Pamela Hardy was said to have been bequeathed the chest by John Hardy who died in 1822. However, according to the pedigree, Pamela was still alive in ~1930. Although described as an old woman, could she have really been 108? If someone lived to 108 that would be remarkable (quoted in newspapers) and widely documented but it never was. Furthermore, you find other inconsistencies if you compare the fake pedigree of the Hardy Chest to other Hardy objects. Some of these, introduced, conflicting information. One pedigree note for example, introduced the idea John Hardy had an illegitimate son (wholly unsubstantiated), while another states "They were bequeathed by him [T. M. Hardy] to John Hardy". This is impossible since John Hardy died before T. M. Hardy. As noted by G. J Bath in his book: [H]ow is it that Thomas Masterman Hardy, who died in 1839, bequeathed items to his brother, who appears to have died in 1822?". Finally, the Hardy Chest dates to the mid-18th century. So that disproves the story and pedigree note the chest was Ned Ward's, who was a shipmate of Kidd's.

The most disturbing part of your post, is that you mention the name Harold Wilkins as a reference eleven times. We have already established in this thread that Wilkins was a dishonest writer, a charlatan and an outright liar. If you want to score some credibility to your claims, especially if you intend to use them in your upcoming article, I would strongly suggest that you do Not use Wilkins' name or quote his book 'Captain Kidd and his Skeleton Island' in any context as valid reference sources for your conclusions.

It is clear from this statement you have never done any research into the provenance of the objects the maps were found in. In fact, your posts in this thread suggest you did not even know about the pedigree note (as record of ownership) the Hardy Chest came with when sold to Hubert Palmer by Arthur Hill Cutler. It was Wilkins who published the pedigree note in his book. Wilkins' version of events how Palmer acquired these objects the Kidd-Palmer maps were discovered in is the correct version based on private letters Palmer wrote to Wilkins corroborating this version (opposed to the misleading Howlett and Edmunds versions) [these letters are in the possession of G. J. Bath]. Furthermore, you repeatedly in this thread wrongly stated Palmer discovered all the maps, e.g.,
So. You believe that the Kidd charts discovered by Hubert Palmer were an elaborate "Hoax"? If so, who perpetrated this Hoax and for what reason?

This never happened, with exception of only one (however, even then, Palmer was in the presence of Cutler when he found it, and Cutler almost certainly guided him to it, so knew of it before Palmer). Palmer no doubt bought all the objects, but he did so knowing the maps were already in them excluding the discovery of one map in Cutler's shop. When you take into consideration, it was Cutler who sold all these objects (including the "Yunnan Parchment"), some came with fake pedigree notes while the others were also of a dubious provenance as well, and all but one was sold to Palmer knowing the maps were inside them, obviously points to Cutler as the hoaxer. Are you seriously saying you believe all of the maps by pure chance found their way into the same antique shop?
From your first sentence you seem to have already predetermined the charts to be fake. Why would Arthur Cutler go to such great lengths to deceive Palmer just to sell him some second hand objects? There are many details in these cartographs that can't just be attributed to chance, and these clues should not be dismissed due to one man questioning their provenance. All that said, I can appreciate your opinion on this issue and I will give your observations due consideration.
Amusing. You are the person who irrationally believes by pure chance all the maps showed up in the same antique shop (nowhere else in the world) and believes they came from pieces of furniture dating to the era of Captain Kidd (despite some date to the mid-18th century after he died 🤦‍♂️), when they all have a dubious provenance and two (the Hardy/Morgan chests) came with fake pedigrees (at least for the Hardy Chest you would have to admit there is no evidence Ned Ward and Pamela Hardy existed and you have provided none). The idea the Kidd-Palmer maps are authentic is improbable to the extreme but as the saying goes there is no arguing with a true believer... As for Cutler deceiving Palmer, we already know he deceived many people. Supposed Lord Nelson objects (with fake Hardy pedigree) Cutler sold to Palmer and to others, are known fakes. I already provided some information and sources about this.
"10. Is there a mystery left to solve? Arguably, yes. Despite the maps are not what they purport to be (Captain Kidd never drew or owned them), I think is is very likely the hoaxer (Cutler) buried a treasure in the late 1920s (possibly genuine pirate antiques in his collection) and provided clues on these maps that point to a real location. I am working on an article which will attempt to identify the spot."

That says it all! You believe that a British antique dealer hid his own treasure on a tropical island in the 1920's, and then drew the 'fake' Kidd maps so that Palmer could find its location? That notion is even more convoluted than the Lord Anson's treasure story. I can't wait to hear your follow-up conclusions to this very imaginative theory.
I do not believe or argue there is a literal island as the maps depict, nor did I ever claim it was in the tropics, all I said is Cutler buried a treasure but the maps provide clues. I have little doubt though the solution to finding the treasure (based on the maps) is in England and I have much evidence for this, but the treasure can only be found by obtaining more information from Cutler/Palmer. This is why Wilkins books are very important as are G. J. Baths books since he acquired Wilkins private letters.
 
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It would be interesting to find out and confirm if this Arthur Cutler was real person or not?

Crow

He owned an antique shop in Eastbourne, England. Palmer also lived in the same town and regularly bought objects from him.

The following book under "dealers in antiques (towns)" mentions Cutler's shop address.

Values of Antiques John W. Caldicott (1929).

1749929057182.webp


G. J. Bath provides some more information about Arthur Hill Cutler in his books. His existence is confirmed but unfortunately there is not much about him or his antique shop online. Only a few early 20th century books mention his shop on 45 South Street, Eastbourne.
 
My view is Wilkins was not involved in the hoax. I am surprised you disagree when one of your books publishes private letters Wilkins had with his own brother concerning the Kidd-Palmer maps.

I was not aware of The Oak Island Concealment: Seeing Beyond the Money Pit (an update of the third book?), and will be sure to buy it.

1. Do you have a copy of Wilkins "Captain Kidd's Treasure", The Passing Show May 6 (1933) v2 #59 or know where I can read it?
2. Do you know what the article Wilkins published (December 1936) in The Scottish Field was titled or know where I can read it?
3. Your books mention a 1940 article published by Wilkins and another map
4. Do you have access to book reviews and Wilkins letters about Captain Kidd and His Skeleton Island in The Listener (1935)?
5. Wilkins wrote an article in 1940 in which he published the following map you labelled "Flood Map".
Do you know what the article was titled and in what magazine/journal? Do you have a copy?
6. I could be mistaken but I believe in one of your books you mention that Wilkins wrote an article on the Kidd-Palmer charts in the 1950s or later. I have not been able to find that.
@Cryptid1990 concerning your observations and questions (in italics):

My view is Wilkins was not involved in the hoax.

Sorry, I must have given you the wrong impression. I agree entirely. What I meant about Wilkins’ motives was that he wanted a shot at the treasure himself. Bear in mind that the instructions on the three Wilkins’ maps and the two Palmer maps came from the same source, but Wilkins wasn’t aware of this as he didn’t have access to the file. I actually saw the file and was permitted to see the originals of the maps that had been published.

Note that the original maps from which Palmer’s copies were made were not like those published, specifically in that there’s no lagoon and they don’t refer to the China Sea.

The instructions on the Wilkins map used by Gilbert Hedden were written on a version of ‘John S’s Rough Map’, that is, Oak Island from J.F.W Des Barres Atlantic Neptune (1774-77).

I was not aware of The Oak Island Concealment: Seeing Beyond the Money Pit (an update of the third book?), and will be sure to buy it.

You’re quite right, it’s an updated summary of Book 3 which is now retired.

1. Do you have a copy of Wilkins "Captain Kidd's Treasure", The Passing Show May 6 (1933) v2 #59 or know where I can read it?

Yes, I’ve got a few copies of the mag and I’m sure I can spare one if there’s a way to get it to you - I live in the UK. Or maybe I can scan and send it if that doesn’t work for you.

2. Do you know what the article Wilkins published (December 1936) in The Scottish Field was titled or know where I can read it?

The article is called ‘Captain Kidd and his Treasure Island’. I seem to recall that I had to request a photocopy from the publisher. I don’t have an original copy of the mag. Again, it might scan.

3. Your books mention a 1940 article published by Wilkins and another map.

I’m not sure of the specific reference, but maybe I was referring to the Flood Map.

4. Do you have access to book reviews and Wilkins letters about Captain Kidd and His Skeleton Island in The Listener (1935)?

I’m sure I have the Listener files, but I’ve so many folders of newspaper and magazine clippings collected by Wilkins and his brother that I can’t immediately put my hand on the Listener pieces. I’ll keep looking and get back to you. I’ve a feeling that his brother actually sent them to Wilkins.

5. Wilkins wrote an article in 1940 in which he published the map you labelled "Flood Map". Do you know what the article was titled and in what magazine/journal? Do you have a copy?

The article was titled, ‘On the Trail of the Wicked Old Pirates’, in the American Weekly Magazine Section for Sunday March 10, 1940. It’s the centrefold on pages 10 and 11 and is continued on page 15.

Yes. Again, I’ve got more than one copy. Same as above, I could get one to you if there’s a way to do that. It’s large newspaper format so would probably be difficult to scan.

6. I could be mistaken but I believe in one of your books you mention that Wilkins wrote an article on the Kidd-Palmer charts in the 1950s or later.

I don’t know where the reference comes from, but it could be referring to an unpublished manuscript concerning the maps that Wilkins was working on in the 1950s. In it, he provides a garbled version of the Palmer map instructions even though Palmer had passed on by then.

Please feel free to send me a PM if that suits.
 
Hello Mr Bath. Not that it affects the validity of the charts, but how do you know this? Your statement does not follow the accepted narrative, and it is contradictory to the correspondence letters written by Palmer to Wilkins.

It's obvious to anyone that the Kidd-Palmer charts were clearly Not drawn by Wilkins. And I strongly disagree that they intended to depict Juan Fernandez, or Oak Island. I also don't believe that the "Guernsey mugs" or the John S's rough map have anything to do with Kidd.

If not Kidd then who? There are no accounts that Kidd was ever anywhere near Oak Island. I'm sorry but at 44.5123° north latitude, I'm betting that Oak Island has never had a coral reef nor has it ever been visited by sea turtles. Maybe there's a good reason that nobody is listening.
Maybe you should read what's been written and listen to what's being said. I've really no idea where you're getting all this from.

1. As I'm actually in possession of the letters written by Palmer to Wilkins concerning the maps, and some from Wilkins to Palmer, I reckon I'm better placed than you to know what is and is not the actual narrative.

2. And it's also obvious to me that the Palmer-Kidd charts were not drawn by Wilkins. However, as I have Wilkins' papers in my possession I can assure you that he did, in fact, base his map upon Juan Fernandez. In the same way, I can also confirm that Wilkins' maps do not depict Oak Island. I can also state that John S's Map has nothing to do with Kidd. As I never made any such claims I have to wonder why on earth you're bringing it up.

3. The original map that the Palmer map was copied from, which I've seen, did not contain a reference to the China Sea and did not have a coral reef or lagoon. Furthermore, the actual word Turtles did not appear on it. All this was added later, probably as part of the scam. Can you really be the only person here unable to work this out?

I'd conclude by observing that it's clearly you who's not listening and equally clearly don't want to listen.
 
He owned an antique shop in Eastbourne, England. Palmer also lived in the same town and regularly bought objects from him.

The following book under "dealers in antiques (towns)" mentions Cutler's shop address.

Values of Antiques John W. Caldicott (1929).

View attachment 2212623

G. J. Bath provides some more information about Arthur Hill Cutler in his books. His existence is confirmed but unfortunately there is not much about him or his antique shop online. Only a few early 20th century books mention his shop on 45 South Street, Eastbourne.

Thanks for the update.

Just a question for all to jog Old Crows memory. In what years was the alleged furniture with the maps purchased by Palmer off Arthur Hill Cutler? It was alleged that. The correct sequence of the discoveries is:

Hardy Chest, Coral Island Map, 1929/1930
Morgan Chest, Plain Map, 1931/1932
Bureau, Sarah Kidd Map, 1932 (late)
Workbox, Skeleton Map, 1933 (early)

Digging into Arthur Hill Cutlers life. 1881 census below

CUTLER 1881 CENSUS.webp


In 1910 he was listed below.

CUTLER 1910..webp


In 1914 he was listed below.


CUTLER 1914.webp


In 1921 he was listed below working as a head horse trainer. Nine year later he is an expert alleged finding maps pertaining to Kid in furniture not made before Kidd's execution?

CUTLER 1921 HORSE MASTER TRAINER.webp


in 1922 he was back living or still recorded living at 15 Greystone building eastbourne.

Cutler 1922.webp


By 1930 he was operating as antique dealer at 45 south street Eastbourne Sussex.

curtler antique dealer 1946.webp


So all these alleged finds happened around a very short time frame. So we have events in the great depression. I cannot imagine many people collecting antiques in 1930 when people was struggling to put food on the table. And then Hubert Palmer a cashed up gentlemen B in early stages of dementia turns up. It must of been a cash cow for Arthur Hill Cutler have a client willing to pay good money for artifacts related to captain Kidd. But one but four artifact alleged to have been Kidd's.

It clearly reeks of Arthur Hill Cutler manipulating Hubert Palmer into believing the fake maps and artifacts they was selling him was real.

Amazing the shop still exists today.

cutlers shop as of 2024 2.webp


Cutler himself died in 1958 as you can see below.

cUTLER DIED 1958.webp


The former horse trainer must be laughing in his grave with controversy he created. And Harold T Wilkins promoted it for his own ends after at why let truth get in the way of good story. And nearly 100 years on we still have believers in charts wasting their lives to the point they are blind to all else because it has become a obsessive religion to them.

I have seen it so many times with many treasure legends.


Crow
 
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Last night I was reflecting on one of my posts above and realised that perhaps it was misleading concerning the Reef and Lagoon depicted on the Palmer maps. What I should have said is that the words ‘reef’ and ‘lagoon’ did not appear on what I refer to as the original.

By this, I'm referring to the map I believe to have inspired the Palmer map, and I should note that I was only permitted to see the ‘original’ of what Palmer referred to as the ‘Key Chart’. I only glimpsed the other map, the one having the red ink trail, and I don’t think it contained the word ‘coral’, but I can't be sure.

If you look at the two Palmer maps having instructions you’ll see that the reef might be made up of symbols that could be cipher text (or partially so). This is what I noted. However, I didn’t see this as a reef essentially because of confirmation bias.

Due to my thoughts that the island depicted could be Oak Island I interpreted the apparent ‘reef’ and ‘lagoon’ perhaps to be a form of barrachois representing the ‘swamp’ and its southern extremity, or bar, where the road now runs.

However, I can fully appreciate that somebody else might interpret the marks on the map to represent a reef thereby forming a lagoon.
 
Thanks for the update.

Just a question for all to jog Old Crows memory. In what years was the alleged furniture with the maps purchased by Palmer off Arthur Hill Cutler?

Crow
I was going to reply to this, but I think it needs to have a thread of its own which I'm now working on!
 
Digging into Arthur Hill Cutlers life.

Very much appreciated for all this information about Cutler. :icon_thumright:

Unfortunately, the writing on some of the records is difficult to read.

Arthur Hill Cutler said his occupation was "riding" but what is the second word?

Any idea what the employment and place of work says? Something "White [...] School"? The [...] place."

1750006035160.webp
 
Very much appreciated for all this information about Cutler. :icon_thumright:

Unfortunately, the writing on some of the records is difficult to read.

Arthur Hill Cutler said his occupation was "riding" but what is the second word?

Any idea what the employment and place of work says? Something "White [...] School"? The [...] place."

View attachment 2212709
Riding Master

J White Riding School
Buckingham Place
 
Riding Master

J White Riding School
Buckingham Place
Thanks. Riding Master looks correct as does "White Riding School" (not sure about J, could be 4?)

I cannot find anywhere named Buckingham Place in Eastbourne, although there is a Burlington Place and looking at the writing I think it reads Burlington. However, I cannot find any riding school there by a web-engine search. However, it's possible it closed decades ago, so I will try and search some internet archives. Can anyone else help?
 
@Cryptid1990 concerning your observations and questions (in italics):

My view is Wilkins was not involved in the hoax.

Sorry, I must have given you the wrong impression. I agree entirely. What I meant about Wilkins’ motives was that he wanted a shot at the treasure himself. Bear in mind that the instructions on the three Wilkins’ maps and the two Palmer maps came from the same source, but Wilkins wasn’t aware of this as he didn’t have access to the file. I actually saw the file and was permitted to see the originals of the maps that had been published.
Apologies, I now understand. Can you provide any information on these other maps?
Note that the original maps from which Palmer’s copies were made were not like those published, specifically in that there’s no lagoon and they don’t refer to the China Sea.
This is very interesting. Do you mean the plain map drawing which does not contain or mention a lagoon or the China Sea? Or do you mean the original Coral Island/Skeleton Map/Sarah Kidd maps (to use your map terms for convenience) did not contain or mention a lagoon and/or China Sea on any of them, and those were added by Palmer (who made his own copies) or someone else who made copies of the original? If the latter, did you get access to Palmer's records, showing the originals? I always suspected that China Sea was added as a ruse to mislead treasure hunters. Secondly, my understanding is China Sea did not appear on the Plain/Coral map to begin with, and those were inside the earliest two furniture pieces purchased by Palmer from Cutler. Wilkins makes clear, Palmer bought these objects knowing the maps were inside. Howlett and Edmunds get this information wrong and also state an incorrect sequence of when Palmer purchased them.
The instructions on the Wilkins map used by Gilbert Hedden were written on a version of ‘John S’s Rough Map’, that is, Oak Island from J.F.W Des Barres Atlantic Neptune (1774-77).

I was not aware of The Oak Island Concealment: Seeing Beyond the Money Pit (an update of the third book?), and will be sure to buy it.

You’re quite right, it’s an updated summary of Book 3 which is now retired.

1. Do you have a copy of Wilkins "Captain Kidd's Treasure", The Passing Show May 6 (1933) v2 #59 or know where I can read it?

Yes, I’ve got a few copies of the mag and I’m sure I can spare one if there’s a way to get it to you - I live in the UK. Or maybe I can scan and send it if that doesn’t work for you.

2. Do you know what the article Wilkins published (December 1936) in The Scottish Field was titled or know where I can read it?

The article is called ‘Captain Kidd and his Treasure Island’. I seem to recall that I had to request a photocopy from the publisher. I don’t have an original copy of the mag. Again, it might scan.

3. Your books mention a 1940 article published by Wilkins and another map.

I’m not sure of the specific reference, but maybe I was referring to the Flood Map.

4. Do you have access to book reviews and Wilkins letters about Captain Kidd and His Skeleton Island in The Listener (1935)?

I’m sure I have the Listener files, but I’ve so many folders of newspaper and magazine clippings collected by Wilkins and his brother that I can’t immediately put my hand on the Listener pieces. I’ll keep looking and get back to you. I’ve a feeling that his brother actually sent them to Wilkins.

5. Wilkins wrote an article in 1940 in which he published the map you labelled "Flood Map". Do you know what the article was titled and in what magazine/journal? Do you have a copy?

The article was titled, ‘On the Trail of the Wicked Old Pirates’, in the American Weekly Magazine Section for Sunday March 10, 1940. It’s the centrefold on pages 10 and 11 and is continued on page 15.

Yes. Again, I’ve got more than one copy. Same as above, I could get one to you if there’s a way to do that. It’s large newspaper format so would probably be difficult to scan.

6. I could be mistaken but I believe in one of your books you mention that Wilkins wrote an article on the Kidd-Palmer charts in the 1950s or later.

I don’t know where the reference comes from, but it could be referring to an unpublished manuscript concerning the maps that Wilkins was working on in the 1950s. In it, he provides a garbled version of the Palmer map instructions even though Palmer had passed on by then.

Please feel free to send me a PM if that suits.
Thanks for all the information here and I would be very grateful if you can send me these articles. I live in England. I will send you a PM but if you need postage costs I can send some money if you have PayPal.
 
Thanks. Riding Master looks correct as does "White Riding School" (not sure about J, could be 4?)

I cannot find anywhere named Buckingham Place in Eastbourne, although there is a Burlington Place and looking at the writing I think it reads Burlington. However, I cannot find any riding school there by a web-engine search. However, it's possible it closed decades ago, so I will try and search some internet archives. Can anyone else help?
I agree Burlington
On second glance it is G White...a capital G with a little g tail
 
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Last night I was reflecting on one of my posts above and realized that perhaps it was misleading concerning the Reef and Lagoon depicted on the Palmer maps. What I should have said is that the words ‘reef’ and ‘lagoon’ did not appear on what I refer to as the original.

By this, I'm referring to the map I believe to have inspired the Palmer map, and I should note that I was only permitted to see the ‘original’ of what Palmer referred to as the ‘Key Chart’. I only glimpsed the other map, the one having the red ink trail, and I don’t think it contained the word ‘coral’, but I can't be sure.
Who did show you those maps and how good are the credentials? Also the words are really secondary as long the drawing is similar. Even without the text I would describe it as a lagoon.

In any case geographically it makes all sense and I know many volcanic islands that fit at least some of the details. I am quite sure the island exists and its none of the already researched ones.
If you look at the two Palmer maps having instructions you’ll see that the reef might be made up of symbols that could be cipher text (or partially so). This is what I noted. However, I didn’t see this as a reef essentially because of confirmation bias.
Somehow everything must be a hidden message these days. Very, very few people in the 17th century did know about cryptography. Going down that rabbit hole and you will find that almost any island or even any spot on earth is the right one. With enough ingenuity I am sure one could prove it is buried below Time Square.

The Key map has a certain symmetry that distorts the shape of the other maps. I think this is because whoever has drawn this map needed more details to enter into the central part of the island where the treasure is buried. The three stumps and the skeleton will be around 100ft apart and 20ft east of it the treasure is buried. To draw those details the map needs to be distorted in its proportions and shape
 
Apologies, I now understand. Can you provide any information on these other maps?

This is very interesting. Do you mean the plain map drawing which does not contain or mention a lagoon or the China Sea? Or do you mean the original Coral Island/Skeleton Map/Sarah Kidd maps (to use your map terms for convenience) did not contain or mention a lagoon and/or China Sea on any of them, and those were added by Palmer (who made his own copies) or someone else who made copies of the original? If the latter, did you get access to Palmer's records, showing the originals? I always suspected that China Sea was added as a ruse to mislead treasure hunters. Secondly, my understanding is China Sea did not appear on the Plain/Coral map to begin with, and those were inside the earliest two furniture pieces purchased by Palmer from Cutler. Wilkins makes clear, Palmer bought these objects knowing the maps were inside. Howlett and Edmunds get this information wrong and also state an incorrect sequence of when Palmer purchased them.

Thanks for all the information here and I would be very grateful if you can send me these articles. I live in England. I will send you a PM but if you need postage costs I can send some money if you have PayPal.
I can understand the confusion! It's probably best to go back to when I was actively researching. I came upon the Kidd maps and Wilkins from reading Rupert Furneaux's book on Oak Island. I was initially looking to obtain letters from Wilkins but also buying books, magazines, newspapers etc. on the topic. I met up with many people at auctions, book sales and the like, and left my details with used book sellers. I was particularly looking for a rare book mentioned by Wilkins in a letter of his that I’d purchased.

A book seller off the Charing Cross Road contacted me to ask whether I'd be prepared for him to give my phone number to a guy who was interested in the same book. I did so and he made contact, though he was very secretive. We arranged to meet in London, and always in the lounges of hotels off the Strand.

He wondered if I might have information of use to him and eventually revealed that, about a century previously, his family had come into possession of a file concerning the deposit of a treasure of great value. I was only vaguely interested, because I’d heard the tale before and I’m fully aware that there are people out there who readily believe in such nonsense!

He mentioned that his family had been looking for the book I was after and had no idea that anybody else might know about it or have an interest in it. He wanted to know what had prompted my search. I replied that I was simply looking for information, at which point he became quite agitated, rambling on a bit, and eventually asked me if I’d known Harold Wilkins!

Now that really did interest me, as I felt that the coincidence was far too great. It was then that my research finally clicked in and I was able to deduce where he potentially fitted in to the fabled tales of buried treasure. I’d read elements of the story and I was thus able to talk ‘knowledgeably’ about it and did, in fact, drop Wilkins’ name and that of his correspondent.

My contact became more agitated, even angry, and really laid into Wilkins. I sympathised and, not really knowing what was going on, said that I didn’t think Wilkins was right in the matter. His reply was, “damned right he wasn’t.” I still didn’t know what he was going on about, and observed that Wilkins was merely interested in book sales, as that was about all I'd gleaned about him at the time.

This prompted my contact to lash out at, “that fool Palmer,” and “that bunch of rogues”, and then things really started to click. The light dawned. Putting everything together, I felt that the maps had to be the link and that maybe they weren’t fabrications after all or, at least, that I may have plugged into their source. Perhaps, Wilkins hadn’t found the originals in the British Museum, as is often suggested.

I took a chance and observed that I thought Wilkins could have tried harder to hide the truth. He just glared at me and said, “he didn’t try at all.” I simply nodded, sagely. He was silent for a while. I then mentioned the deposit he'd referred to and observed that it was confusing. We talked around the subject, and I threw in the occasional prompt to see what he reacted to. Thus, the conversation drifted to South America and eventually to treasure hunts in Chile.

I mentioned Juan Fernandez and at one point observed that it's only half of the story. At that, he slumped back in his chair, observed, "I see you know!" and asked, “Do you have the other half, or do you know where it is?” I replied that I didn’t know much about the first half, and then he opened up.

That’s how I got to see some of the original documents that provided the instructions quoted by Wilkins and the maps used in the Palmer ‘scam’. In the process, I recognised the original island outline to be Oak Island as depicted on 18th century charts that I'd seen as a result of my research into the Oak Island mystery.

The search had turned full circle, confirming something I'd already figured out by matching the map instructions to the known ground markers on Oak Island.

As to the cost of mailing, think nothing of it, all in the cause of research. However, it did strike me that maybe you don’t have the revised version of my Book 3 in which I actually mention the Passing Show article.
 
Thanks. Riding Master looks correct as does "White Riding School" (not sure about J, could be 4?)

I cannot find anywhere named Buckingham Place in Eastbourne, although there is a Burlington Place and looking at the writing I think it reads Burlington. However, I cannot find any riding school there by a web-engine search. However, it's possible it closed decades ago, so I will try and search some internet archives. Can anyone else help?
We could possibly search phone directories back in the 1920's also phone books and business directories.

Crow
 
I can understand the confusion! It's probably best to go back to when I was actively researching. I came upon the Kidd maps and Wilkins from reading Rupert Furneaux's book on Oak Island. I was initially looking to obtain letters from Wilkins but also buying books, magazines, newspapers etc. on the topic. I met up with many people at auctions, book sales and the like, and left my details with used book sellers. I was particularly looking for a rare book mentioned by Wilkins in a letter of his that I’d purchased.

A book seller off the Charing Cross Road contacted me to ask whether I'd be prepared for him to give my phone number to a guy who was interested in the same book. I did so and he made contact, though he was very secretive. We arranged to meet in London, and always in the lounges of hotels off the Strand.

He wondered if I might have information of use to him and eventually revealed that, about a century previously, his family had come into possession of a file concerning the deposit of a treasure of great value. I was only vaguely interested, because I’d heard the tale before and I’m fully aware that there are people out there who readily believe in such nonsense!

He mentioned that his family had been looking for the book I was after and had no idea that anybody else might know about it or have an interest in it. He wanted to know what had prompted my search. I replied that I was simply looking for information, at which point he became quite agitated, rambling on a bit, and eventually asked me if I’d known Harold Wilkins!

Now that really did interest me, as I felt that the coincidence was far too great. It was then that my research finally clicked in and I was able to deduce where he potentially fitted in to the fabled tales of buried treasure. I’d read elements of the story and I was thus able to talk ‘knowledgeably’ about it and did, in fact, drop Wilkins’ name and that of his correspondent.

My contact became more agitated, even angry, and really laid into Wilkins. I sympathised and, not really knowing what was going on, said that I didn’t think Wilkins was right in the matter. His reply was, “damned right he wasn’t.” I still didn’t know what he was going on about, and observed that Wilkins was merely interested in book sales, as that was about all I'd gleaned about him at the time.

This prompted my contact to lash out at, “that fool Palmer,” and “that bunch of rogues”, and then things really started to click. The light dawned. Putting everything together, I felt that the maps had to be the link and that maybe they weren’t fabrications after all or, at least, that I may have plugged into their source. Perhaps, Wilkins hadn’t found the originals in the British Museum, as is often suggested.

I took a chance and observed that I thought Wilkins could have tried harder to hide the truth. He just glared at me and said, “he didn’t try at all.” I simply nodded, sagely. He was silent for a while. I then mentioned the deposit he'd referred to and observed that it was confusing. We talked around the subject, and I threw in the occasional prompt to see what he reacted to. Thus, the conversation drifted to South America and eventually to treasure hunts in Chile.

I mentioned Juan Fernandez and at one point observed that it's only half of the story. At that, he slumped back in his chair, observed, "I see you know!" and asked, “Do you have the other half, or do you know where it is?” I replied that I didn’t know much about the first half, and then he opened up.

That’s how I got to see some of the original documents that provided the instructions quoted by Wilkins and the maps used in the Palmer ‘scam’. In the process, I recognised the original island outline to be Oak Island as depicted on 18th century charts that I'd seen as a result of my research into the Oak Island mystery.

The search had turned full circle, confirming something I'd already figured out by matching the map instructions to the known ground markers on Oak Island.

As to the cost of mailing, think nothing of it, all in the cause of research. However, it did strike me that maybe you don’t have the revised version of my Book 3 in which I actually mention the Passing Show article.
Hello Gib

Its small small world!

I THINK know who you were talking with. He posts here on treasuretnet occasionally. I will not mention his name. But i have no doubt he will be lurking around. I kind of expected he will be posting his two cents worth before long. Ironically, he discovered a few things to his credit. But took things WAY out of context to fit he perceived ideas.

Crow
 
I dug out my notes from my research at Christie's and I noticed that I’ve got an address for the mysterious Herbert Elliott at Glebelands, East Dean, Eastbourne. I noted at the time that he was selling (or offloading) a lot of "Nelson relics" from the spurious Pamela Hardy ‘collection’ during 1932-33 (certainly October and November 1932 and February and March 1933). Some were stated as having been obtained through Arthur Hill Cutler, exactly when Cutler was selling the Kidd relics and their maps to Palmer.

There was an auction on Tuesday, February 28, 1933, consisting of Pamela Hardy items that were stated to have been in the possession of Matthew Sherriff Gosling (deceased) apparently being sold by the trustees. This happens to be just when Palmer purchased the workbox and its map through Cutler.

I checked Gosling out on the internet, and it seems he may have died eleven years earlier. Notably, his family lived in Eastbourne. I imagine that a few of the seven items up for auction could have been genuine, though interspersed with fake Nelson memorabilia, perhaps as a cover and maybe the scammer’s M.O.

So, Arthur Hill Cutler appears to have been heavily involved in some seriously dodgy activities, but was he the ringleader? Maybe this guy Elliott was in on it with Cutler, though I couldn’t find his specific address on the internet. As Christie's must have contacted him, certainly to pay him, I assume that he was a real person.
 
Hello Gib

Its small small world!

I THINK know who you were talking with. He posts here on treasuretnet occasionally. I will not mention his name. But i have no doubt he will be lurking around. I kind of expected he will be posting his two cents worth before long. Ironically, he discovered a few things to his credit. But took things WAY out of context to fit he perceived ideas.

Crow
I don't think so! The guy I was talking to was about 80 at the time and I know for a fact that he died a good while back. However, it's interesting that there could still be someone around who was connected with the group holding the documents.
 
I don't think so! The guy I was talking to was about 80 at the time and I know for a fact that he died a good while back. However, it's interesting that there could still be someone around who was connected with the group holding the documents.
Oh! then it must be a different person I was thinking of?

I will look to confirm any more details with Herbert Elliott at Glebelands, East Dean, Eastbourne. and Matthew Sherriff Gosling. There is the possibility Arthur Hill Cutler could have also been an unknown victim of the scam. He may genuinely have thought the items were real.

Crow
 
I had no results for a Matthew Sherriff Gosling in Eastbourne. How ever there was a Matthew Sherriff Gosling. that lived in Richmond and was loaded. her was very wealthy.

you can see him in the 1921 census below.

Screenshot 2025-06-16 131012.webp


He had it appears special privileges with city of London.

Screenshot 2025-06-16 131840.webp


It appeared he died as you suspected in 1922. His probate was in 1923 see belong as you can see for the time he was very wealthy.

Screenshot 2025-06-16 132018.webp


His house still exists today in Richmond.

101065383-67103-800.webp


He was chairman of Charman of Gardiner & Sons Licenced Victualler.

Perhaps all furniture and items originated from this deceased estate?

Crow
 

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