The Waltz Doodle

[SPARTANOC]

What gets me the most is hearing people use the word "fact" when they are literally talking about legends and rumors. There has always been VERY LITTLE FACT

Cubfan64

There's always a small tad of Truth in ever Legend.

Personally - I believe the LDM exists. Does all the clues and markers mentioned throughout time correct, probably not, and I'm certainly not gullible enough to believe they all do. What I have found through research though, is that there are elements to stories that ARE valid, as small as they seem, and I believe many have created bogus info - keeping many from reaching success in discovery of so many of these "lost mines". So many books written for nefarious reasons (mislead treasure hunters) OR to just to entertain. I know the 'old timer Hunters' purposely left many things out of some of their stories, due to competition and the ever risk to safety, but regardless of all those hindrances, some have produced an end result of good fortune.

-SpartanOC

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I'm only tangentially interested in the LDM history have never been a believer in the generally accepted version(s) of the legend. That said, I wonder if any of you well-informed LDM researchers can verify that a person known as "Bud Dozier", an alleged acquaintance/friend/drinking buddy of Waltz, actually existed in AZ during that era?

I have an apparently little-known vanity press book that I bought at a yard sale for 25¢, written by an AZ pioneer woman who did many years of research for "lost mines", way back in the day. The first half of the book deals with the Lost Adams Diggings, arriving at a conclusion that seems unique, but that I personally disagree with. The second half covers several well-known AZ "lost mines". The book alleges that Dozier, a "whang-leather pioneer" friend of the author's family, was a scout at Fort McDowell in 1865, in 1871 had a careful duplicate of the "Ramon Peralta map", and after getting Waltz drunk one night, got him to reveal how he (Waltz) incorrectly used the map. It's a new twist, the resulting opinion that Waltz was a fake, at least as far as the mine being in the Superstitions.

Anyone ever heard of Bud Dozier?

Definitely a real guy that was in the area when Waltz was. Whether or not he had any real involvement, I can't say. The name doesn't ring a bell. I wouldn't say his life as reflected in the papers gave any indication that he was in possession of a large amount of gold

And Ft. McDowell was little more than a sporadically occupied camp in 1865. If true, Dozier was probably a member of the CA Volunteers. Many pioneers claimed to be "scouts" at one time or another, most of them probably never were

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Re: Bud Dozier, clipping from 1887:

His name was misspelled in the paper. Bud Dozier was correct spelling, same as Steve's post. Found later that all men were convicted on assault with intent to murder. Did 2 years in Yuma prison before they were released on a technicality and it appears they may have also gotten a pardon. Dozier and Brash had a couple of scrapes with the law over the years but nothing else this serious. Both were living in Pinal Co. nearby all the silver mines (King/Reymert).

 

[markmar]

I'm only tangentially interested in the LDM history have never been a believer in the generally accepted version(s) of the legend. That said, I wonder if any of you well-informed LDM researchers can verify that a person known as "Bud Dozier", an alleged acquaintance/friend/drinking buddy of Waltz, actually existed in AZ during that era?

I have an apparently little-known vanity press book that I bought at a yard sale for 25¢, written by an AZ pioneer woman who did many years of research for "lost mines", way back in the day. The first half of the book deals with the Lost Adams Diggings, arriving at a conclusion that seems unique, but that I personally disagree with. The second half covers several well-known AZ "lost mines". The book alleges that Dozier, a "whang-leather pioneer" friend of the author's family, was a scout at Fort McDowell in 1865, in 1871 had a careful duplicate of the "Ramon Peralta map", and after getting Waltz drunk one night, got him to reveal how he (Waltz) incorrectly used the map. It's a new twist, the resulting opinion that Waltz was a fake, at least as far as the mine being in the Superstitions.

Anyone ever heard of Bud Dozier?

Hello sdcfia

Can I ask you, what was that unique conclusion about LAD that you disagree with ?

 

[sdcfia]

Hello sdcfia

Can I ask you, what was that unique conclusion about LAD that you disagree with ?

A Dragoon Mountains location. I disagree because of the conclusion I've proposed in the following post:

https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/the-lost-adams-diggings-was-never-lost.697284/#post-7215829

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Lost Adams Diggings

Jose, Nino's book is a good....juvenile read. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of Apache life, in the old days, will realize it's a historical novel. That does not, however, mean there is no factual truth in the book. The trouble comes when trying to separate truth from fiction. Nino...

www.treasurenet.com

 

[sdcfia]

Re: Bud Dozier, clipping from 1887:

View attachment 2221600

His name was misspelled in the paper. Bud Dozier was correct spelling, same as Steve's post. Found later that all men were convicted on assault with intent to murder. Did 2 years in Yuma prison before they were released on a technicality and it appears they may have also gotten a pardon. Dozier and Brash had a couple of scrapes with the law over the years but nothing else this serious. Both were living in Pinal Co. nearby all the silver mines (King/Reymert).

Thanks Jim. The book's author also mentioned that Dozier was "known as a dangerous enemy or a staunch friend", and his "steady hands were perfect master of rifle or pistols." I guess that's what "whang-leather" means.

The book caught my eye because of the LAD cover. A lot of the content, such as the Dozier material, is anecdotal. I have mixed feelings about anecdotes - they can easily be dismissed, or if the degrees of separation to the teller is minimal, they can be valuable. In any event, below is a short synopsis of the Dozier tale. And lower, the introduction to Part 2 (Arizona mines). I'm not a deep diver into the LDM saga, but here it is, for those who might be interested:

sdcfia summary: ^^ Ramon Peralta (Don Miguel Peralta's son) had given a copy of a map to the family's Arizona mines to a drinking pal named Ludi, a "wanderlust prospector". Ludi, broke, talked Waltz into a partnership to find and exploit the Peralta mines - Ludi would provide the map, Waltz would pay the expenses. They left "for Mexico", but Waltz alone returned to Phoenix without Ludi, whom he allegedly murdered for the map.

Waltz misread the map, assuming Weaver's Needle was the major landmark, when Vulture Peak (Picacho Soledad en Merito) was actually the correct pointer. Vulture Peak led to the original Peralta mine of Don Miguel. It was Mesa Colorado Del Oro (Gold Hill). Waltz searched the Superstitions for the Peralta mines for many years to no avail. He acquired enough rich ore in the interim from other sources, then claimed it was from his mine in the Superstitions. Dozier, who had an association with the Vulture Mine, claimed that some of the ore that Waltz showed in Phoenix was obtained from the Vulture mine from known high-graders there. ^^

 

[SPARTANOC]

Thanks Jim. The book's author also mentioned that Dozier was "known as a dangerous enemy or a staunch friend", and his "steady hands were perfect master of rifle or pistols." I guess that's what "whang-leather" means.

The book caught my eye because of the LAD cover. A lot of the content, such as the Dozier material, is anecdotal. I have mixed feelings about anecdotes - they can easily be dismissed, or if the degrees of separation to the teller is minimal, they can be valuable. In any event, below is a short synopsis of the Dozier tale. And lower, the introduction to Part 2 (Arizona mines). I'm not a deep diver into the LDM saga, but here it is, for those who might be interested:

sdcfia summary: ^^ Ramon Peralta (Don Miguel Peralta's son) had given a copy of a map to the family's Arizona mines to a drinking pal named Ludi, a "wanderlust prospector". Ludi, broke, talked Waltz into a partnership to find and exploit the Peralta mines - Ludi would provide the map, Waltz would pay the expenses. They left "for Mexico", but Waltz alone returned to Phoenix without Ludi, whom he allegedly murdered for the map.

Waltz misread the map, assuming Weaver's Needle was the major landmark, when Vulture Peak (Picacho Soledad en Merito) was actually the correct pointer. Vulture Peak led to the original Peralta mine of Don Miguel. It was Mesa Colorado Del Oro (Gold Hill). Waltz searched the Superstitions for the Peralta mines for many years to no avail. He acquired enough rich ore in the interim from other sources, then claimed it was from his mine in the Superstitions. Dozier, who had an association with the Vulture Mine, claimed that some of the ore that Waltz showed in Phoenix was obtained from the Vulture mine from known high-graders there. ^^
View attachment 2221625

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Sdcfia

The Vulture Mine never matched (assayed) to the gold found under Waltz' bed.

-SpartanOC

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Nice find, Steve. Any indications of when she wrote it?

Appears to be a variation of the Jacobs and Ludi story, which unfortunately got stolen and appended onto Waltz's story. Not her fault, probably how she heard it from a trusted person.

I like the whole Vulture Peak thing, as I've seen that very landmark on a very, very old map. In Spanish

It appears she has some correct dates, such as 1891 for Waltz's death, 1863 for Rich Hill, and so on. Seems she did some research.

EDIT: Doug Stewart's website says it was published in 1985. Hmmm. Perhaps it was an old manuscript that someone published later?

 

[coazon de oro]

You had ME on the smart list? And here I thought YOU had your wits about you

So just what are the "Salt River Mountains"? What are the boundaries?

Waltz knew Holmes was following him. He led him up Tortilla Creek to solve that particular problem. Away from the mine.

Edit: The Supes are a good place to quietly resolve these kinds of problems. Waltz was a man that had survived the Indian troubles in CA and AZ. Looking in the papers, guys were getting killed left and right, by Indian, Anglo, and Mexican. I don't think he was the type to talk things out when someone was sneaking around on his backtrail. I think he would've interpreted that as a direct and immediate threat to his life. And I don't think he would've been dumb enough to continue to his mine with someone on his trail. I think he would've led the scumbag to a good ambush point that was far off the trail to the mine.

The only law that existed out there was what you could enforce yourself. Nobody would be coming to help, Waltz was on his own.

Boundaries Amigo? We don't need no stinking boundaries, as you said, it's what people think of as the Supes. I don't know where the Salt River begins to get salty, maybe that would be the boundary?
Waltz had a head start on Holmes, so he didn't know he was being followed until they were in the Supes, where he got more wary, and found that he was being followed. He knew it was just a kid, and didn't want to kill him, so he did lead him to a good ambush point to give him the scare of his life.

 

[sdcfia]

Nice find, Steve. Any indications of when she wrote it?

Appears to be a variation of the Jacobs and Ludi story, which unfortunately got stolen and appended onto Waltz's story. Not her fault, probably how she heard it from a trusted person.

I like the whole Vulture Peak thing, as I've seen that very landmark on a very, very old map. In Spanish

It appears she has some correct dates, such as 1891 for Waltz's death, 1863 for Rich Hill, and so on. Seems she did some research.

EDIT: Doug Stewart's website says it was published in 1985. Hmmm. Perhaps it was an old manuscript that someone published later?

Nothing dated in the book. It was hand-typed on an apparently older manual typewriter with lots of miss-strikes, some inconsistent formatting and some real bad photo reproductions. Looks to be xerox-reduced to 5x8 page size. Definitely self-published. Yeah, 1985 sounds about right.

 

[sgtfda]

Some advice to the newbie's. Don't fall into the trap those before you did. Forget the clues! Search where gold was found before. Look for the old gold and silver mines. They are not hard to find. The main area were to the west and east of the volcano. The west side was beat to death and it's all claimed up. Look to the east. It's not Weavers Needle but Byous Butte. No one I know has searched the mountains to the east of Hewitt Canyon Rd. I have a old map that shows all the claims in the area. From Iron Mountain south well past Florence. Pinal had hundreds around it. Join a prospecting club and learn. You will find gold. Tom K told me to look for granite. He had a degree in geology. My one claim up by Woodbury had huge granite boulders. During heavy rain the water rushing down from Iron Mountain would roll them around bust loose gold. Look for areas with round river rock that washed down. Found lots of gold in those spots. Read books on the area. Both Jack and Jesse wrote two great ones! I learned real quick in the clubs. Watch what those finding gold do. Ask they will teach you. If you go to the rendezvous ask Woody to show you how to pan. It's a start. Don't sit around on your ass listening to those who after years following clues found nothing. Doc's Prospecting makes a scoop for dry panning. They work. One is called the gold drop. He has a video on their use. Good luck.

 

[sgtfda]

Some advice to the newbie's. Don't fall into the trap those before you did. Forget the clues! Search where gold was found before. Look for the old gold and silver mines. They are not hard to find. The main area were to the west and east of the volcano. The west side was beat to death and it's all claimed up. Look to the east. It's not Weavers Needle but Byous Butte. No one I know has searched the mountains to the east of Hewitt Canyon Rd. I have a old map that shows all the claims in the area. From Iron Mountain south well past Florence. Pinal had hundreds around it. Join a prospecting club and learn. You will find gold. Tom K told me to look for granite. He had a degree in geology. My one claim up by Woodbury had huge granite boulders. During heavy rain the water rushing down from Iron Mountain would roll them around bust loose gold. Look for areas with round river rock that washed down. Found lots of gold in those spots. Read books on the area. Both Jack and Jesse wrote two great ones! I learned real quick in the clubs. Watch what those finding gold do. Ask they will teach you. If you go to the rendezvous ask Woody to show you how to pan. It's a start. Don't sit around on your ass listening to those who after years following clues found nothing. Doc's Prospecting makes a scoop for dry panning. They work. One is called the gold drop. He has a video on their use. Good luck.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Nothing dated in the book. It was hand-typed on an apparently older manual typewriter with lots of miss-strikes, some inconsistent formatting and some real bad photo reproductions. Looks to be xerox-reduced to 5x8 page size. Definitely self-published. Yeah, 1985 sounds about right.

Ahhh. Ok. I thought it was alot older as Dozier died in the 1930's. By friend of the family she must be referring to her ancestors?

Anyway, by 1985 there were plenty of books out such as such as Blair's, which explains the correct dates in her list of mines. All the later Dutchman authors made good use of Greg's research

 

[PotBelly Jim]

... as you said, it's what people think of as the Supes. I don't know where the Salt River begins to get salty, maybe that would be the boundary?...

And therein lies the rub, my friend. Nobody really knows what "Salt River Mountains" means. I sure don't. The best I've been able to come up with is that Superstition Mountain was called that, as a single mountain, around the time Waltz would've been making that remark to Riney and Julia. "The Salt River Mountains" could have meant anything, as long as they were along the Salt River. And if we're giving any credence to that statement, we need to remember he could've been saying "over those Salt River mountains."

It was only after Waltz's death that the range that we think of today as "The Superstitions" got that particular moniker. Before that, it was a jumble of names. Even the Goldfield mines were referred to as being in the Superstitions, and the Goldfield district was actually named the Superstition District.

 

[Doc4261]

I don't know who was the author of the drawing, but I know for certain is a 90% reproduction of an image about one mile afar from the LDM. This is the "small valley to the west" told in the German clues. The "long ridge" told in Holmes route, is the mountain you see to the left. So, if Battleship and Palomino are considered mountains, then you can imagine how big is that ridge. The image of WN is not real, nor its orientation or dimension, because in the drawing was used only as a point of reference and not as it looks in reality. So, if you search for the actual place which fits the WN image in the drawing, you are searching in vain. It would leads you in the wrong place and will give you a lot of lost time and big frustation.
But this is only what I know about this "doodle" and for many people I'm considered just an armchair GE researcher. So, you can continue to believe in your theories until your research or someone else will prove you wrong. Good luck to everyone!

Wouldnt be so sure on that.. I know where that view comes from or damn close that I couldnt draw it any better.

 

[sdcfia]

Ahhh. Ok. I thought it was alot older as Dozier died in the 1930's. By friend of the family she must be referring to her ancestors?

Anyway, by 1985 there were plenty of books out such as such as Blair's, which explains the correct dates in her list of mines. All the later Dutchman authors made good use of Greg's research

Not much available on the author. She lived 1900-1991, which gives her overlap with Dozier while she was young and he was old. I don't know about her family before that. At some point she donated manuscripts to Sharlott Hall museum in Prescott. If there is more information, it'll be behind a genealogical site paywall.

 

[sgtfda]

1800's Map to the Lost Dutchman. Hundreds of claims. Pick one. Bet one is the LDM. I like the Pioneer district by Rodgers. Look at the claims around the Silver King. I have Jack's map collection and this map was in the pile. Next time I talk to him I'll ask where he found it. I suspect the Silver King. It was printed in 1882. Could not fit the whole map in the photo. As I said before if you want gold and silver go where it was found before. There is a huge mining history east of the Superstitions.

 

[SPARTANOC]

1800's Map to the Lost Dutchman. Hundreds of claims. Pick one. Bet one is the LDM. I like the Pioneer district by Rodgers. Look at the claims around the Silver King.View attachment 2221730View attachment 2221731View attachment 2221732

Sgtfda

Thanks for sharing Frank. Fascinating map and it is much appreciated.
-SpartanOC

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Not much available on the author. She lived 1900-1991, which gives her overlap with Dozier while she was young and he was old. I don't know about her family before that. At some point she donated manuscripts to Sharlott Hall museum in Prescott. If there is more information, it'll be behind a genealogical site paywall.

That ought to do it...I was able to find where Dozier settled down, got married, established a ranch in Pima Co....unfortunately he went broke and wound up living in a house in Marana in the years just prior to his death. I can try to see what I can dig up on her, maybe she'll turn up in the same places... I'm not very good at Ancestry.com...hopefully Garry or Paul will give it a go...Guys?

I did find a fun story in the paper about a lynch mob that came to get Dozier et al out of the Pinal County Courthouse and hang them. It happened all the time at that particular courthouse, seems like the lynch mobs may as well had the key to the jail. Would've made it easier on everyone. Seems Dozier and gang were armed by the acting jailer as the Sheriff was out of town and the Sheriff's wife grabbed pistol and rifle and helped stand off the mob. Just another day in Pinal County.

I'll email it to you tomorrow.