Walt Gasslers Notes on Dutchman Legend

[deducer]

i have never attacked anyone on this forum that didnt attack me first and i dont pester people for their sources because most of their sources are books..and i dont put much stock in books..the only book i believe in is the bible...and i'm not talking about corbins book....i mean the holy bible

Dave, I am not talking about you. You are a very informed poster.

 

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[cactusjumper]

deducer,

Since we are talking about attacks, I believe whichever Moderator stepped in and stopped the last attacker, did the right thing.

While I had my doubts about some identities of new posters, and their reasons for being here, I do believe that Mr. Gassler is who he says he is.

My reason for writing that it was the first Gassler, who was an impostor and showed Tom the ore, had more to do with about a 1-hour conversation this week with Tom, where we did talk about the incident, than any information written in any book. I believe Tom is the best/only source for this information and yes, I do believe good sources are important.

I feel the best way to avoid "constantly pestering posters for "sources." is to simply say they will not be named. I have done that on several occasions over the years. Those who make up their "history" and "facts" will always feel "pestered". Those who feel the need to defend those kinds of people will only end up making themselves less believable.

The best historical sources, IMHO, are those people who have actually lived the history, like Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin. If you have something better, by all means bring it to the discussion.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

I must assume from your, now, collective silence, that we all are in agreement that Tom is the best and most reliable source for the fake Roland Gassler LDM ore story. Good!

The additional lack of debate on my opinions on sources might indicate that you, once again collectively, can't come up with a cogent rebuttal. Good!

The history of the Walter Gassler story has been written, by the man most able to write it, and no amount of attempted rewrites will have much of an effect on it. May I suggest a rewrite of that chapter?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

i have never attacked anyone on this forum that didnt attack me first and i dont pester people for their sources because most of their sources are books..and i dont put much stock in books..the only book i believe in is the bible...and i'm not talking about corbins book....i mean the holy bible

Where did I attack you?

Also, while Helen Corbin's SECOND book on the LDM, the "Bible" has largely been pulled from publication, her FIRST book has not, and that is the source I was quoting from. From that we have:

1: Walt Gassler claimed that he had figured out where the LDM is,
2: Walt Gassler asked both Bob C and Tom K to accompany him as he thought he could show them the mine,
3: The FAKE Roland Gassler showed gold ore to Tom K, that he stated to Helen Corbin looked quote "EXACTLY" like ore from Waltz.
4: The FAKE Roland Gassler stated the gold ore shown to Tom K came from Walt Gassler's backpack,
5: The FAKE Roland Gassler stated that Walt Gassler HAD found the LDM;
6: Walt Gassler had a backpack when found, this backpack seems to have vanished.

Now you are welcome to dismiss the whole thing as you did, but I am not making any of that up. I realize that SOME people seem to want to discourage anyone from searching for the LDM, and especially do not welcome "outsiders" as intruding in their own 'back yards' so to speak, however it is largely Federal public lands, open to all not just people that happen to live near by. Please read what is posted and don't put words in my mouth, and understand what is stated. I did NOT state that Tom K or Bob C ever claimed that Walt Gassler found the LDM. Walter told both men that he had figured it out and would take them to it, and later the FAKE Roland Gassler stated that Walter had indeed found it, showing the ore to support his contention.

Markmar - Tom K stated that ore he was shown looked EXACTLY like LDM ore, not "similar". EXACTLY is far more of a strong statement than "similar". Ore specimens from the Vulture mine are SIMILAR to Waltz's ore, but is not exactly like it.
Here is an example of Vulture gold ore:


<borrowed from Vulture Mine Suite AZ - Wickenberg,Maricopa County - 1860-1940 - 2012aug - Mineral Specimens under Fair Use provisions, not for profit>

As for that 'other poster' that left due to some 'individual's behavior here' not once did I attack that person verbally, nor insult him. He did insult me, repeatedly, and attempted to bait me into making nasty posts like he was doing. That does not help build confidence in his information for me, when he refuses to answer simple questions and resorts to insults.

Amen to what Cactusjumper posted - I will take the words of those who lived it, over those whom were not present.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

 

[azdave35]

Gentlemen,

I must assume from your, now, collective silence, that we all are in agreement that Tom is the best and most reliable source for the fake Roland Gassler LDM ore story. Good!

The additional lack of debate on my opinions on sources might indicate that you, once again collectively, can't come up with a cogent rebuttal. Good!

The history of the Walter Gassler story has been written, by the man most able to write it, and no amount of attempted rewrites will have much of an effect on it. May I suggest a rewrite of that chapter?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

joe...thats all i wanted was to hear what tom remembered about the story...next thing i know people are trying to say i called tom a liar.....i dont read books nor do i pay much attention what most people write in books ..i would rather get my info from a human..

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Publicly, I can tell you again, that Roland Gassler said his dad did NOT have any gold ore. Now, that is at odds with Bob Corbin (I think). Wasn't it Bob that said he saw the samples of Gassler's Ore? I think Tom may have seen it as well before Gassler died. In a quote from Tom K's Article about he and Bob Corbin looking for Gassler's Camp he states:

I was somewhat convinced Walt Gassler carried his gold samples into the Superstition Mountains to match them with the country rock in the area of his camp. Corbin wasn’t convinced that was the case. Corbin and I had thought maybe Gassler found his three rich specimens of ore in the mountains somewhere near his camp.

Since Bob had never met the "fake" Roland Gassler, that statement says that both Bob C. and Tom K. had seen the ore.

Just a thought - Mike

 

[azdave35]

Where did I attack you?

Also, while Helen Corbin's SECOND book on the LDM, the "Bible" has largely been pulled from publication, her FIRST book has not, and that is the source I was quoting from. From that we have:

1: Walt Gassler claimed that he had figured out where the LDM is,
2: Walt Gassler asked both Bob C and Tom K to accompany him as he thought he could show them the mine,
3: The FAKE Roland Gassler showed gold ore to Tom K, that he stated to Helen Corbin looked quote "EXACTLY" like ore from Waltz.
4: The FAKE Roland Gassler stated the gold ore shown to Tom K came from Walt Gassler's backpack,
5: The FAKE Roland Gassler stated that Walt Gassler HAD found the LDM;
6: Walt Gassler had a backpack when found, this backpack seems to have vanished.

Now you are welcome to dismiss the whole thing as you did, but I am not making any of that up. I realize that SOME people seem to want to discourage anyone from searching for the LDM, and especially do not welcome "outsiders" as intruding in their own 'back yards' so to speak, however it is largely Federal public lands, open to all not just people that happen to live near by. Please read what is posted and don't put words in my mouth, and understand what is stated. I did NOT state that Tom K or Bob C ever claimed that Walt Gassler found the LDM. Walter told both men that he had figured it out and would take them to it, and later the FAKE Roland Gassler stated that Walter had indeed found it, showing the ore to support his contention.

Markmar - Tom K stated that ore he was shown looked EXACTLY like LDM ore, not "similar". EXACTLY is far more of a strong statement than "similar". Ore specimens from the Vulture mine are SIMILAR to Waltz's ore, but is not exactly like it.
Here is an example of Vulture gold ore:

View attachment 1238792
<borrowed from Vulture Mine Suite AZ - Wickenberg,Maricopa County - 1860-1940 - 2012aug - Mineral Specimens under Fair Use provisions, not for profit>

As for that 'other poster' that left due to some 'individual's behavior here' not once did I attack that person verbally, nor insult him. He did insult me, repeatedly, and attempted to bait me into making nasty posts like he was doing. That does not help build confidence in his information for me, when he refuses to answer simple questions and resorts to insults.

Amen to what Cactusjumper posted - I will take the words of those who lived it, over those whom were not present.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

roy..i dont try to discourage anyone from looking for the ldm...i just dont believe anyone will find it...thousands of better men than us have spent their lives and fortunes and failed to find it....you or anyone else from out of state is welcome to come look...i had brains enough to stop looking for it years ago

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

Publicly, I can tell you again, that Roland Gassler said his dad did NOT have any gold ore. Now, that is at odds with Bob Corbin (I think). Wasn't it Bob that said he saw the samples of Gassler's Ore? I think Tom may have seen it as well before Gassler died. In a quote from Tom K's Article about he and Bob Corbin looking for Gassler's Camp he states:



Since Bob had never met the "fake" Roland Gassler, that statement says that both Bob C. and Tom K. had seen the ore.

Just a thought - Mike

Mike,

"I was somewhat convinced Walt Gassler carried his gold samples into the Superstition Mountains to match them with the country rock in the area of his camp. Corbin wasn’t convinced that was the case. Corbin and I had thought maybe Gassler found his three rich specimens of ore in the mountains somewhere near his camp."

Your quote comes from after the date Walt died, and after the fake Roland Gassler showed Tom the three pieces of ore. Tom opines that Gassler carried them into the mountains to compare them with the native rock in the area he was interested in. Bob does not say anything about the ore itself. Why haven't you called Bob or emailed him for a statement?

I believe you are reading way too much into what was written, more than what should be implied. Why are you so interested in making this bogus story fly and, at the same time, casting doubts on what Tom wrote? I could be wrong, but that's the way it seems to me. I don't believe that Bob stated he saw the ore. I don't see how that is possible, since Walt never had the ore, according to his real son, and from the story, Bob was not present when Tom saw the ore.

I think you need to give a little more thought to your theory.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

RW Gassler is who he says he is. Roland cancelled on the meeting because of a misunderstanding about confirmation of the established date and time.

I was at the meeting place on the date and time set up as was Mike McChesney. Mike and I waited and after it became apparent Roland had cancelled Mike and I had lunch, talked and I was able to show Mike some of Walters things that were not confidential.

I have talked with Roland since that day and we plan to get together at a later date when I am back in Arizona. I believe Mike mentioned he has also since had contact with Roland.

The Roland Gassler Remembered thread was taken down because it became a personal playground for certain members to play their usual games and engage in fights and misinformation.

It ended when one particular member told the Forum that another man, who he named in the post,had committed a serious felony. That was an outright lie, the man named had committed no felony and the moderators shut the thread down.

Matthew

Does anyone know what Matthew was talking about? I missed the post where someone accused someone else of committing "a serious felony". Why wouldn't the moderators just delete the offending post and ban the person who made that comment? As far as I know, Matthew Roberts is the only member who was banned? Did he make the statement?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Does anyone know what Matthew was talking about? I missed the post where someone accused someone else of committing "a serious felony". Why wouldn't the moderators just delete the offending post and ban the person who made that comment? As far as I know, Matthew Roberts is the only member who was banned? Did he make the statement?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

has matthew been banned?

 

[cactusjumper]

has matthew been banned?

Dave,

If you click on Matthew's profile, you will see that he has been banned. Personally, although we disagreed often, I hate to see all of his historical knowledge stopped from being shared. On the other hand, should the ban be lifted, I fear he will delete all of his posts. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, as do many other members.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

If you click on Matthew's profile, you will see that he has been banned. Personally, although we disagreed often, I hate to see all of his historical knowledge stopped from being shared. On the other hand, should the ban be lifted, I fear he will delete all of his posts. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, as do many other members.

Take care,

Joe

yep..i liked having matthew around....he kept everyone on their toes...hope he comes back

 

[Old]

Mike,

Re-read that article written by TK again. It clearly says BC only met with Gassler once. It doesn't say that TK ever met with Gassler. It would be odd to leave that out if he did. Neither mention seeing any gold prior to Gassler's death.

BC and TK speculated among themselves much later whether or not Gassler carried gold specimens to compare to his area of interest. BC stated to TK that Gassler specifically told BC that he did not.

TK has a later writing where he says he rode out and met and spoke with Gassler on the trail prior to his death. Whether or not that is true is doubtful to me. Maybe so, maybe not. Doesn't mean I think TK is a bad person. I don't. I think this is where writer's liberty got the best of him. And; the area where "some" embellishment of the story has occurred. It happens. Don't we know! That's why we sort through hundreds of false leads to pick up the few real gems of truth.

Now, the more interesting story that has far more intrigue is where did the imposter get the gold that he flashed for Tom. Gold that looked "exactly" like Dutchman gold. Could it have been from the now lost back pack or was it just a prop to enhance the imposter's story. If a prop, how do you fool a geologist with a specimen of Dutchman gold? Perhaps some from the Holmes stash from the candlebox?

How did he know Tom had the writings?

Get closer to investigating those odd occurrences and I believe you will get closer to who sent him. Or, the imposter story is a complete fabrication and all things that spring from it. I know that's not a favorable question among many here. I appreciate the loyalties aspect. I am not directly associated with any of the players and can evaluate either occurrence on its own merits. Either is possible.

And, its possible someone may be able to describe a narrative to make all stories work. I can't but others might be able to.

 

[sdcfia]

That's why we sort through hundreds of false leads to pick up the few real gems of truth.

And just how do we identify those "gems"? Seriously. How do we verify alleged events and evidence that presumably originated well over 100 years ago? Whose word should we accept on faith, and why? Believing things with total conviction, heart and soul, in no way makes those things true. The LDM legend is essentially a mishmash of conflicting bits of folklore that makes for stimulating discussions and occasional nostalgic hikes into the legendary canyons. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

 

[cactusjumper]

And just how do we identify those "gems"? Seriously. How do we verify alleged events and evidence that presumably originated well over 100 years ago? Whose word should we accept on faith, and why? Believing things with total conviction, heart and soul, in no way makes those things true. The LDM legend is essentially a mishmash of conflicting bits of folklore that makes for stimulating discussions and occasional nostalgic hikes into the legendary canyons. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

sdcfia,

I, personally, question everyone's "facts". That would include my closest friends as well as myself. That's exactly how I got in trouble over at The LDM Forum. Now people I used to consider friends are feeding my paranoia.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Lynda,

"How did he know Tom had the writings?"

That should be a red flag for everyone.

Good catch,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Lynda,

"How did he know Tom had the writings?"

That should be a red flag for everyone.

Good catch,

Joe

Actually it is not clear that the IMPOSTER Roland knew who or whom had Walter's notes. Perhaps it might help us to re-read the transcript:

Then, one month after Walt’s death, Tom Kollenborn had a surprising visitor:

"He said he was Roland Gassler, Walt Gassler’s son. And he says, well you know my dad found the Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions and he got out this gold and showed it too me. It looked very similar to the gold that allegedly came out of the Lost Dutchman mine."




Roland wanted to use the map and notes in Tom’s possession to retrace his father’s steps. Tom obliged Roland and gave him the manuscripts. Two months passed and Tom never heard whether Roland’s search was successful.

from the Unsolved Mysteries episode

and from Helen Corbin's FIRST book (NOT the "Bible")

That weekend a man appeared at Tom Kollenborn's home. He introduced himself as Walter Gassler's son. Tom invited the man in and after exchanging pleasantries the man brought out some rich gold ore. He said it was in his father's backpack when he was found on the trail. Tom was shocked. But, maintaining his usual dour façade, he examined the ore and later said it looked exactly like the gold which came from under the Dutchman's bed. The man listened patiently. After a bit he said, "I understand that my father gave his notes to Bob Corbin, is that true? Tom nodded, saying little, in true cowboy fashion. It was apparent the man wanted those notes back. Tom suggested he call the attorney general at his office in the state capitol, and the matter was left right there.

A week later Tom called Bob to see if he had heard from Gassler's son. Bob said no, but he would gladly give the notes up to the family; he felt that was only fair.

Next point here but the REAL Roland Gassler never got his father's backpack, although it is listed among the items recovered with the body. It was the IMPOSTER that claimed he had taken the ore Tom K. described as EXACTLY like LDM ore from the backpack. The obvious solution here is that the IMPOSTER somehow got possession of Walt Gassler's backpack. So the fact that the REAL Roland never saw such ore in his father's possession is not odd at all, since he did not get possession of his father's backpack. This also implies that the ore was obtained in Walt's last trip.

As to the comments about how to pick the gems of truth, I would point out that this is the Treasure LEGENDS forum, not the national archives and public records. We are dealing with stories that are sometimes supported by documentation, sometimes none at all. To expect any of these stories to be backed up by official records, historic photos and documents is unrealistic. All are free to choose NOT to pursue any kind of treasure LEGEND which is not supported by hard evidence, and of course you will never find one by not looking. It is nice to have solid evidence of course, but unrealistic to expect or demand that such evidence be produced to "prove" a treasure story is factual.

Not every point CAN be proven or disproven; as with the story of the IMPOSTER Roland Gassler showing what appeared to be LDM ore to Tom K. For me, it appears that the IMPOSTER was trying to get possession of Walter's notes and approached Tom K as one of the leading figures in the Dutch hunting community and also one of the most approachable. It is not clear that he "knew" Tom to have them. The ore he showed and stated it had come from Walt's backpack, I see no reason to doubt. Why bother to show it at all, or say that it came from Walt's pack, when he could have simply said he wanted the notes for family mementoes? On the other hand, an IMPOSTER that found Walter dead OR simply showed up when the body and belongings were being brought out, may well have had opportunity to grab the pack, found the ore inside just as he claimed, and this led him to want Gassler's notes to help him find the mine. Other theories may work too, but this seems most logical to me. It also would explain why the backpack found with Walt and listed on the inventory, had vanished by the time the REAL Roland Gassler arrived.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, just thought perhaps a couple of points should be cleared up as it is easy to get misconceptions that lead to false conclusions - like assuming that the IMPOSTER somehow KNEW that Tom K had the notes, which is not clear at all, rather it appears that the imposter was looking for them, and did not know who had the notes; also that it was the imposter that showed the ore and stated it came from Walter's pack, not the real Roland.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,
Trust all is well with you, Beth and the pups.

The Gassler story has plenty of details to help make it confusing. I have serious doubts it will bring anyone closer to finding the LDM.

I believe we have gone over this before, my friend, but AZ(Dave) is a long time good friend and a good hand to have with you in the desert. He is very knowledgeable and someone who's friendship you would do well to cultivate. I see that the two of you butt heads now and again, but that holds true for you and I as well. I would not hesitate for a second to add him to any team searching for gold.

If I have overstepped a line here, you have my apology. I believe the two of you would become lifetime friends.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Quit trying to milk him ( Oro) AWAY FROM TAYOPA, JOE, OR i'LL NEVER FORGIVE YOU FOR EATING MY STEAK. .

 

[azdave35]

Roy,
Trust all is well with you, Beth and the pups.

The Gassler story has plenty of details to help make it confusing. I have serious doubts it will bring anyone closer to finding the LDM.

I believe we have gone over this before, my friend, but AZ(Dave) is a long time good friend and a good hand to have with you in the desert. He is very knowledgeable and someone who's friendship you would do well to cultivate. I see that the two of you butt heads now and again, but that holds true for you and I as well. I would not hesitate for a second to add him to any team searching for gold.

If I have overstepped a line here, you have my apology. I believe the two of you would become lifetime friends.

Take care,

Joe

thanks joe....i dont have anything against roy....we just dont agree on everything