Walt Gasslers Notes on Dutchman Legend

[deducer]

deducer,

Since we are talking about attacks, I believe whichever Moderator stepped in and stopped the last attacker, did the right thing.

While I had my doubts about some identities of new posters, and their reasons for being here, I do believe that Mr. Gassler is who he says he is.

My reason for writing that it was the first Gassler, who was an impostor and showed Tom the ore, had more to do with about a 1-hour conversation this week with Tom, where we did talk about the incident, than any information written in any book. I believe Tom is the best/only source for this information and yes, I do believe good sources are important.

I feel the best way to avoid "constantly pestering posters for "sources." is to simply say they will not be named. I have done that on several occasions over the years. Those who make up their "history" and "facts" will always feel "pestered". Those who feel the need to defend those kinds of people will only end up making themselves less believable.

The best historical sources, IMHO, are those people who have actually lived the history, like Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin. If you have something better, by all means bring it to the discussion.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

The subject we all deal with and have an interest in, as far as buried or hidden treasure, by its very nature, involves a great deal of deception and misleading information, if not outright fiction.

After all, the idea of burying treasure is to keep it out of the hands of as many people as possible, not making history or conforming to someone’s ethnocentric view of history.

Consequently, applying rigorous academic standards to the world of treasure-hunting, is forcing a square peg into a round hole. People do not bury treasure in order to subject their actions to historical scrutiny, nor do they care that the truth is told about them or what they did. So to continually pester posters for “sources,” or to argue about who’s right or wrong, or about adhering to the one truth of what happened, contributes nothing except loss of further information that isn't posted because posters become discouraged or less inclined to post any information out of fear of being criticized, shot down, or doubted.

I would find it, furthermore, supremely ironic if someone who placed so much emphasis on “citing sources” were found to have never gone to college.

In the final analysis, the final determinant of what constitutes expertise in this field is by and large a matter of how you filter the wheat from the chaff. You could possess a great deal of information, but in no way does that automatically make you an expert on the LDM if you don’t have the ability to see the forest for the trees. The willingness to be flexible, open-minded, and to continually adjust one’s theories based on new information are valuable traits to have, IMO, in addition to developing the ability, or a methodology, to determine truth from fiction.

The way I see it, the best way for someone to get to the bottom of a truth is for this person to not just do homework and walk the walk, but assume responsibility for figuring out how to decide what’s true and what’s not, rather than forcing others to adhere to ethical standards; that never has and never will work. Those who tell lies will continue to tell lies, no matter how much you try to shame them. You would, however, succeed in discouraging other people from posting further information that might be valuable, either in its own right, or to other posters than yourself.

 

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[cactusjumper]

The subject we all deal with and have an interest in, as far as buried or hidden treasure, by its very nature, involves a great deal of deception and misleading information, if not outright fiction.

After all, the idea of burying treasure is to keep it out of the hands of as many people as possible, not making history or conforming to someone’s ethnocentric view of history.

Consequently, applying rigorous academic standards to the world of treasure-hunting, is forcing a square peg into a round hole. People do not bury treasure in order to subject their actions to historical scrutiny, nor do they care that the truth is told about them or what they did. So to continually pester posters for “sources,” or to argue about who’s right or wrong, or about adhering to the one truth of what happened, contributes nothing except loss of further information that isn't posted because posters become discouraged or less inclined to post any information out of fear of being criticized, shot down, or doubted.

I would find it, furthermore, supremely ironic if someone who placed so much emphasis on “citing sources” were found to have never gone to college.

In the final analysis, the final determinant of what constitutes expertise in this field is by and large a matter of how you filter the wheat from the chaff. You could possess a great deal of information, but in no way does that automatically make you an expert on the LDM if you don’t have the ability to see the forest for the trees. The willingness to be flexible, open-minded, and to continually adjust one’s theories based on new information are valuable traits to have, IMO, in addition to developing the ability, or a methodology, to determine truth from fiction.

The way I see it, the best way for someone to get to the bottom of a truth is for this person to not just do homework and walk the walk, but assume responsibility for figuring out how to decide what’s true and what’s not, rather than forcing others to adhere to ethical standards; that never has and never will work. Those who tell lies will continue to tell lies, no matter how much you try to shame them. You would, however, succeed in discouraging other people from posting further information that might be valuable, either in its own right, or to other posters than yourself.

deducer,

What people post is their own business. On the other hand, if you post something that has an historical basis it should, at the least, be historically accurate. If not, just label it fiction, write your book and collect your money. People who believe the so called "experts" on the Superstition Mountains and the lore attached to them, go into the mountains, misled by a BS story. Many of them die, or do great harm to themselves.

A number of years ago, a fellow wrote a history of the Stone Maps and asked for Dutch Hunters to ask questions about anything that concerned them. I asked for sources for the historical evidence in his story. I'm sure you remember. He went ballistic on me, as well as some of his friends. It's a grudge, I'm sure, he holds to this day. My posts are still there for anyone to see, while he and his friends deleted theirs.......like cats covering up their smelly........stuff.

If you are going to make historical statements, you should be ready to qualify them. I only ask, not "pester". If someone feels pestered, it's probably because they don't really have a source and made up the whole thing. Anyone with half a brain would simply say, I'm not at liberty to reveal my source. I've done that myself, any number of times.

I'm not sure that going to college is a requirement for having more than half a brain.

Now that's just my opinion. I'm sure there are plenty of cats out there who would agree with you, completely.

Have a great Thanksgiving. We will be having around 20 here.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Old]

Roland, thank you for giving us a window into your father’s search. I’m not asking you to reveal anything of substance as to where he searched, but; I would like to hear how he searched.

Did he follow maps and measure from what he believed to be markers? Follow documents and written accounts? Or did he search from a more visual review of the ground around him? Such as type of structure, elevation, soil type? Perhaps taking panning samples as he went. Maybe a combination?

Deducer, what’s the meaning of your college (or not) comment? When has that ever had anything to do with successful prospectors or treasurer hunters? Certainly a degree is a nice asset to have, but hardly the prerequisite one.

Personally, I’ll take common sense over parchment degrees any day. A successful prospector can buy talent in fields he needs. Someone who lacks raw talent and common sense is woefully ill equipped to be the point person of any venture. That goes for field work as well as written narratives.

I’d much rather read a poorly written analysis from someone who is factually correct than a well written one from someone that doesn’t know their elbow from their………..well you get the picture. Unfortunately we have a world lead by many of the latter type today. How’s that working out for us?

 

[Azquester]

Informational sources attached too the LDM have a way of turning fictional over time. A lot of it being shoved out there for the direct purpose of misleading the status quo. I doubt if what Jacob Waltz really said on his death bed will ever be truly known as to the directions he gave in those last few hours on earth. The dying stories of a very sick man mixed with Delirium the simple process of the advanced Pneumonia stages he was in. Unraveling his statements second hand would make the person listening think he's just trying to confess his sins before he dies more than telling the secret location of his lost mine. Which may be exactly that just an old man attempting to make it into Heaven, if you so believe, or at least stay out of Hell after he goes. Maybe he was shooting for Purgatory?

Either way the man was dying and I know back in those days a dying mans word was as good as it gets for all purposes as testimony in court. But old Jacob was still spry and had some spunk in him in those last days so who truly knows what his dying motivations for trying to give the location of his mine were?

If Jacobs old cache was real and it's location was across from his mine the cache was probably found long ago by someone that may never reveal the location or never knew what they had found. That person may have just sold it off and disappeared never knowing they were on the trail to Jacob's mine thus forever helping Jacob unknowingly conceal his rich outcrop of precious metal. If his ore is documented maybe a look at the assay office or local important establishments that bought and sold gold ore may at the very least give one a clue that this could have occurred during that early time period when others were searching for it and possibly have the location of their ore find. I think that this may be one possible way of finding where his mine may be located if the story he told was true about his ore cache across from the entrance.

A big "IF".

 

[RWGassler]

Old,
This is what I know about his searches. This began in the early 1930's in California. Apparently hearing about the LDM and a connection with the Peraltas he began his research. From the notes we have he did an extensive search starting with Jesus Miguel Silva de Peralta , the King of Spain, the Peralta land grant and its relationship to Arizona. From there he moved to Arizona where he began his search. He had met and discussed the LDM with some of the hunters of that time. He was especially fond of Tex Barkley and his wife who took him under their wings. That's kind of the background of how it started but to your question. His searches were based upon what he read, people he talked to and exploring the Superstition mountains to become familiar with the area. From that he made his own notes, drew his own maps and continued to refine this overtime. So, I guess you could say he used all the sources you mentioned except for panning.
RWGassler

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Deducer, you posted --- Consequently, applying rigorous academic standards to the world of treasure-hunting, is forcing a square peg into a round hole. People do not bury treasure in order to subject their actions to historical scrutiny, nor do they care that the truth is told about them or what they did. So to continually pester posters for “sources,” or to argue about who’s right or wrong, or about adhering to the one truth of what happened, contributes nothing except loss of further information that isn't posted because posters become discouraged or less inclined to post any information out of fear of being criticized, shot down, or doubted.

I would find it, furthermore, supremely ironic if someone who placed so much emphasis on “citing sources” were found to have never gone to college.

In the final analysis, the final determinant of what constitutes expertise in this field is by and large a matter of how you filter the wheat from the chaff. You could possess a great deal of information, but in no way does that automatically make you an expert on the LDM if you don’t have the ability to see the forest for the trees. The willingness to be flexible, open-minded, and to continually adjust one’s theories based on new information are valuable traits to have, IMO, in addition to developing the ability, or a methodology, to determine truth from fiction.
##################################

Naturely a treasure burier prefers to keep his act secret, so he avoids any action that could be classified as a source. As an example of destroying a source, take Tayopa for instance. The Jesuits not only denied any mining in Mexico, but went into the records of the Vatican wiping out any mention of mining or Tayopa, yet

Basically there are no reliable scources today, yet Tayopa exists.

 

[markmar]

Don Jose

Have you tried to search in Franciscans archives ?
An interesting story by two Franciscans priests around the Salt river at https://books.google.gr/books?id=8K...ved=0ahUKEwibn4yJ867JAhVMtBoKHa9rARIQ6AEIPTAD

 

[cactusjumper]

It seems to me, if you don't want to hear critiques of your theories, or stories, you should not post them on public forums. That being said, the best way to judge/test their worth, is to get comments/opinions from your peers. As I have opined many times, if you just want blind approval, keep your work confined to the kitchen table with close friends and relatives. Mom always thinks her boy/girl is wonderful.

On the other hand, If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Along those lines, I have two turkeys to get into the fryer.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

What people post is their own business. On the other hand, if you post something that has an historical basis it should, at the least, be historically accurate. If not, just label it fiction, write your book and collect your money. People who believe the so called "experts" on the Superstition Mountains and the lore attached to them, go into the mountains, misled by a BS story. Many of them die, or do great harm to themselves.

A number of years ago, a fellow wrote a history of the Stone Maps and asked for Dutch Hunters to ask questions about anything that concerned them. I asked for sources for the historical evidence in his story. I'm sure you remember. He went ballistic on me, as well as some of his friends. It's a grudge, I'm sure, he holds to this day. My posts are still there for anyone to see, while he and his friends deleted theirs.......like cats covering up their smelly........stuff.

If you are going to make historical statements, you should be ready to qualify them. I only ask, not "pester". If someone feels pestered, it's probably because they don't really have a source and made up the whole thing. Anyone with half a brain would simply say, I'm not at liberty to reveal my source. I've done that myself, any number of times.

I'm not sure that going to college is a requirement for having more than half a brain.

Now that's just my opinion. I'm sure there are plenty of cats out there who would agree with you, completely.

Have a great Thanksgiving. We will be having around 20 here.

Joe Ribaudo

I had a good Thanksgiving, thank you. Just 6 of us and no cats, rest assured. Hope you did too.

As you said, all of the above is your opinion. Last I read, Treasurenet doesn't have any rules regarding "historical statements." Anyone is free to post whatever they want, be it truth or fiction, as long as what they post doesn't include any personal attacks. There are no requirements concerning "sources."

And as for the people that have died in the Superstitions as a result of rushing up there, I don't really think it's the BS stories that are to blame as much as it is these individuals ignoring warnings of all sorts and going in unprepared, or off-trail without knowing what they were doing.

 

[deducer]

Deducer, what’s the meaning of your college (or not) comment? When has that ever had anything to do with successful prospectors or treasurer hunters? Certainly a degree is a nice asset to have, but hardly the prerequisite one.

Personally, I’ll take common sense over parchment degrees any day. A successful prospector can buy talent in fields he needs. Someone who lacks raw talent and common sense is woefully ill equipped to be the point person of any venture. That goes for field work as well as written narratives.

I’d much rather read a poorly written analysis from someone who is factually correct than a well written one from someone that doesn’t know their elbow from their………..well you get the picture. Unfortunately we have a world lead by many of the latter type today. How’s that working out for us?

My point exactly.

 

[Honest Samuel]

# 15, total confuse me. Help.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and Beth,

You will get a kick out of this little story. Tonight, as we all gathered hands for a Thanksgiving prayer, Smoky started jumping up between Carolyn and my mom and yapped excitedly. After a moment of this, they broke their hand hold and each grasped a paw. The circle remained unbroken through the prayer. He was quite happy to be part of the moment.

We hope your thanksgiving was as memorable as ours.....at that moment. We have been having family here for Thanksgiving , each year, for 24-years.

We wish the same thing for everyone.

Take care,

Joe & Carolyn

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

I regret I'm unable to come up to your collegiate standards of deductive (thus your name of deducer) reasoning. I imagine many posters here are in the same boat as I am. We slog along just trying to get our little thoughts and theories into a sufficient form to get our betters to issue some small acknowledgment or even slight understanding of what we are talking about.

I understand I have always failed at that with you. My only solace, is that the wide gap in our educations, has built an insurmountable wall which can't be gone around or ascended, and through no fault of my own, I will never be able to receive enough of and education to reach the heights where you stand.

On the other hand, I'm OK with that.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy and Beth,

You will get a kick out of this little story. Tonight, as we all gathered hands for a Thanksgiving prayer, Smoky started jumping up between Carolyn and my mom and yapped excitedly. After a moment of this, they broke their hand hold and each grasped a paw. The circle remained unbroken through the prayer. He was quite happy to be part of the moment.

We hope your thanksgiving was as memorable as ours.....at that moment. We have been having family here for Thanksgiving , each year, for 24-years.

We wish the same thing for everyone.

Take care,

Joe & Carolyn

I wish I could have seen that, and I believe it too. That would have made a great photo but the dog would probably notice if someone had left to get a camera. They really do become part of the family and they DO learn things just from watching! I think that is great! I am glad to hear that you had a great holiday, one to be remembered. I presume that Smoky got an extra special dinner today too.

I hope everyone had a great thanksgiving, we did here; even our old partner Diamond Joe came for dinner so we had lots of Dutchman, Lost Cabin, Alaska, Yukon gold talk. To top it off, loads of turkeys (wild) and eleven deer stayed in the yard all day, was kind of strange but neat too.

Please do continue amigos,
Roy & Beth

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I regret I'm unable to come up to your collegiate standards of deductive (thus your name of deducer) reasoning. I imagine many posters here are in the same boat as I am. We slog along just trying to get our little thoughts and theories into a sufficient form to get our betters to issue some small acknowledgment or even slight understanding of what we are talking about.

I understand I have always failed at that with you. My only solace, is that the wide gap in our educations, has built an insurmountable wall which can't be gone around or ascended, and through no fault of my own, I will never be able to receive enough of and education to reach the heights where you stand.

On the other hand, I'm OK with that.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

One doesn't need a college education to understand what the forum rules are; they are so simple I think even you can understand them. People are free to post what they want to, as long as these posts are related to the subject of the thread and contain no personal attacks.

Nowhere on this forum is there stated an obligation that people have to provide "historical sources" for whatever they post. And I am in agreement with that: this is not an academic or history board, but a place where people can share whatever they want, as far as buried treasure, and hopefully have an intelligent discussion or argument without descending into ad hominem attacks.

Also, just because a historical source is provided or cited doesn't mean that the material is accepted, as you, yourself, have demonstrated many times over.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen, please, Let my Thanks giving dinner digest ( boiled Beans and tortillas ) Life is too short. Academics have nothing to do with posting, common sense yes. Confirmed sources are not always available, or in some cases, desireable

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

One doesn't need a college education to understand what the forum rules are; they are so simple I think even you can understand them. People are free to post what they want to, as long as these posts are related to the subject of the thread and contain no personal attacks.

Nowhere on this forum is there stated an obligation that people have to provide "historical sources" for whatever they post. And I am in agreement with that: this is not an academic or history board, but a place where people can share whatever they want, as far as buried treasure, and hopefully have an intelligent discussion or argument without descending into ad hominem attacks.

Also, just because a historical source is provided or cited doesn't mean that the material is accepted, as you, yourself, have demonstrated many times over.

deducer,

At this point in my life, you are like an old friend......pointing out my faults and keeping me on my toes. We have both come a long ways from our initial meeting over the Stone Maps.

I have not made an issue over the TNet rules, but much like you, I often bend them a bit, which does not mean I don't understand them. I did not bring up your issue of needing a college education to understand the need for reliable sources. No one, that I know, believes it's a TNet rule. You are the one who felt the need to bring that into this conversation.

Some really good points have been made in this topic, and I don't believe I took the conversation astray. It seems that Mr. Gassler has never heard of his father's good friend, Matthew Roberts, nor has his mother. The Apache elders at San Carlos are plagued with the same failing memory problems it seems. For me, these kinds of things place doubts on any new stories that come down the line, including any new "facts" concerning Walter Gassler.

I know you are quite happy with all these new "facts" and new, unknown, sources but many of us have trouble swallowing such stuff. No doubt that has something to do with our lack of higher education as well.

That is why I'm so happy you have returned after a short absence. We can always use a qualified professor to point us in the right direction. I know you have had health problems in the past, so I hope that is not why you were gone for that silent period.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Honest Samuel]

May God bless Smoky. I am wondering what metal detector that he use.

 

[gollum]

Deducer,

First, let me say that I in no way agree with your assertions regarding some one sans degree. I myself sport no degree other than my DD214s (two of them). Everything I have learned to do has all been self taught (except for Russian and Spanish).

Now, as for "historical citations", I don't like to speak for other people, but if I am not mistaken, what Joe was referring to was wanting citations and references for "Historical Facts" that were previously unknown. If someone posted that Waltz was from Germany, I think a statement like that can go with no citations as it is common knowledge. If someone posted that all our research was wrong, and Waltz was from Detroit, then you are gonna have to give out some references and citations.

Joe,

I am one of the folks griping at people that show up here, and jump into the middle of a conversation regarding some little known bit of DLM Trivia, and want references for every letter typed by everyone. They don't go to the trouble of reading previous posts on a subject, or doing some of their own research. THAT is what I have a problem with. If I came out with some mind blowing supercool info, I would be prepared to be challenged at every turn, or, I would keep it to myself.

Take Care - Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Deducer,

First, let me say that I in no way agree with your assertions regarding some one sans degree. I myself sport no degree other than my DD214s (two of them). Everything I have learned to do has all been self taught (except for Russian and Spanish).

Now, as for "historical citations", I don't like to speak for other people, but if I am not mistaken, what Joe was referring to was wanting citations and references for "Historical Facts" that were previously unknown. If someone posted that Waltz was from Germany, I think a statement like that can go with no citations as it is common knowledge. If someone posted that all our research was wrong, and Waltz was from Detroit, then you are gonna have to give out some references and citations.

Joe,

I am one of the folks griping at people that show up here, and jump into the middle of a conversation regarding some little known bit of DLM Trivia, and want references for every letter typed by everyone. They don't go to the trouble of reading previous posts on a subject, or doing some of their own research. THAT is what I have a problem with. If I came out with some mind blowing supercool info, I would be prepared to be challenged at every turn, or, I would keep it to myself.

Take Care - Mike

Mike,

Speaking of education, while I in no way sport the qualifications which you have, especially in languages, I did spend a little time in a Jr. College. One of the problems for me was that the skirts were way to short in the classrooms when I got back from overseas.

When I received my GED, the diploma came from my old high school in Ramona. When the principle handed it to me, he said, "Joe, over half the teachers here, could not have achieved the level of scores that you did on these tests". At that point, I felt I had a pretty good education already. Thank God for books. I read a lot and always have.

Chuck Ribaudo dropped out of grade school in New Jersey. In time, he taught himself math including advance trigonometry. One of the most intelligent men I have ever known. No doubt some educated idiots would have looked down their noses at him.

Good for you!

Take care,

Joe