What happened to the Kidd-Palmer treasure maps?

[TruthbeTold]

Quite the word salad.

 

[Bocaj]

From:

An essay on pirate treasure in Madagascar

I have written an essay suggesting that there is a high possibility that pirate treasures still lie dormant in Madagascar, using an analogy based on the "threat/emergency model" from history and archaeology. If you are interested, please take a look. I also look forward to your feedback...

www.treasurenet.com

It seems there are much earlier maps from Kidd mentioned in newspapers:

Captain Kidd and the Myth of Buried Treasure

Pirates have had a lot of visibility throughout 20th and 21st-century popular culture. When people think of pirates, they often think of eye patches, wooden legs, and or some incarnation of Jack Sp…

web.archive.org

Can anyone here access the following articles mentioned above in the libraries?:

[8] “Captain Kidd, the Pirate,” The Charter, June 30, 1839.

[9] “From the Springfield Republican,” The Semi-Weekly Eagle, February 15, 1849.

 

[Crow]

From:

An essay on pirate treasure in Madagascar

I have written an essay suggesting that there is a high possibility that pirate treasures still lie dormant in Madagascar, using an analogy based on the "threat/emergency model" from history and archaeology. If you are interested, please take a look. I also look forward to your feedback...

www.treasurenet.com

It seems there are much earlier maps from Kidd mentioned in newspapers:

Captain Kidd and the Myth of Buried Treasure

Pirates have had a lot of visibility throughout 20th and 21st-century popular culture. When people think of pirates, they often think of eye patches, wooden legs, and or some incarnation of Jack Sp…

web.archive.org

Can anyone here access the following articles mentioned above in the libraries?:

Researcher Rebecca Simon, based in London, working on a PhD in early modern Atlantic history at King's College London: piracy, made these claims. But are they actually founded in fact? It's not uncommon for researchers to fudge over facts as they know most references and never cross-check. Universities' workload does not have the time and inclination to fact-check when processing students' work.

The reference exists, but it does not support the statement it is attached to. This often happens when a researcher overstates findings, uses a source for an assertion it doesn't make, or copies a citation from another paper without checking it ("blind citation").

"Reference Misdirection": A researcher includes a claim to strengthen their argument but doesn't have a solid source, so they find a "plausible-sounding" reference hoping the reviewer won't check it.

Publishing Pressure: In some cases, references are manipulated to fulfill requirements from journals or to increase the apparent impact of the research.

These two references below that.

“From the Springfield Republican,” The Semi-Weekly Eagle, February 15, 1849. I suspect it's a dud reference, but I could be wrong. The Springfeild Weekly Repulican another dud reference. None from that time period seems to exist. the year 1849. Not digitized at least.

The Springfield Weekly Republican (Mass.), published by Samuel Bowles from 1824–1946, is available primarily on microfilm through the Library of Congress and other research libraries. It was a prominent, often nationally recognized, weekly edition of the daily paper, with holdings covering major historical periods. There is no clear record that copies from 1824 - 1851 still exist.

Availability: Microfilm copies are held at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library (spanning 1851-1946) and the National Library of Australia.Publication Details: Known as the Springfield Weekly Republican (Country ed.) from 1854–1859, it was a crucial publication for national news and in-depth reporting. No publication before 1851 seems to have survived.


“Captain Kidd, the Pirate,” The Charter, June 30, 1839. The references do exist.

The Charter was a short-lived British newspaper established in the autumn of 1838 by the moderate London Working Men’s Association (LWMA) to support the Chartist movement. It was one of several radical publications aimed at securing working-class political rights, often linked with broader Chartist efforts to reform Parliament, such as the Northern Star.

It is a good question Bocaj. What context do those two above-referenced newspaper sources have to do with the maps connected to Captain Kidd? If they exist, of course as per reference claims..

Crow

 

[Crow]

Kidd's life is no real mystery. Forget 19th and 20th-century authors and consult the real documents from the time.

It will give you a better picture of events. What treasure Kidd Buried and those who sailed with him. How much treasure they had. State of affairs in Madagascar, New England, and what he said in the context of his claims of buried treasure.

Everything else is fantasy and wishful thinking.

Crow

 

[Bocaj]

Researcher Rebecca Simon, based in London, working on a PhD in early modern Atlantic history at King's College London: piracy, made these claims. But are they actually founded in fact? It's not uncommon for researchers to fudge over facts as they know most references and never cross-check. Universities' workload does not have the time and inclination to fact-check when processing students' work.

The reference exists, but it does not support the statement it is attached to. This often happens when a researcher overstates findings, uses a source for an assertion it doesn't make, or copies a citation from another paper without checking it ("blind citation").

"Reference Misdirection": A researcher includes a claim to strengthen their argument but doesn't have a solid source, so they find a "plausible-sounding" reference hoping the reviewer won't check it.

Publishing Pressure: In some cases, references are manipulated to fulfill requirements from journals or to increase the apparent impact of the research.

These two references below that.

“From the Springfield Republican,” The Semi-Weekly Eagle, February 15, 1849. I suspect it's a dud reference, but I could be wrong. The Springfeild Weekly Repulican another dud reference. None from that time period seems to exist. the year 1849. Not digitized at least.

The Springfield Weekly Republican (Mass.), published by Samuel Bowles from 1824–1946, is available primarily on microfilm through the Library of Congress and other research libraries. It was a prominent, often nationally recognized, weekly edition of the daily paper, with holdings covering major historical periods. There is no clear record that copies from 1824 - 1851 still exist.

Availability: Microfilm copies are held at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library (spanning 1851-1946) and the National Library of Australia.Publication Details: Known as the Springfield Weekly Republican (Country ed.) from 1854–1859, it was a crucial publication for national news and in-depth reporting. No publication before 1851 seems to have survived.


“Captain Kidd, the Pirate,” The Charter, June 30, 1839. The references do exist.

The Charter was a short-lived British newspaper established in the autumn of 1838 by the moderate London Working Men’s Association (LWMA) to support the Chartist movement. It was one of several radical publications aimed at securing working-class political rights, often linked with broader Chartist efforts to reform Parliament, such as the Northern Star.
View attachment 2247405
It is a good question Bocaj. What context do those two above-referenced newspaper sources have to do with the maps connected to Captain Kidd? If they exist, of course as per reference claims..

Crow

Looking through the rest of the author's former blog she doesn't indicate any serious form of research and quite possible she simply copied the citation from another publication without checking the source. But the original source may have found something important if the claims are true. It can at least prove that those charts are more than total fiction.

 

[Crow]

Looking through the rest of the author's former blog she doesn't indicate any serious form of research and quite possible she simply copied the citation from another publication without checking the source. But the original source may have found something important if the claims are true. It can at least prove that those charts are more than total fiction.

Possibly, I do not know. I would like someone to post the 1839 article. For anyone interested, that is the path for further research. However, I am more inclined to doubt 1839 story will bring anything much more to light. But I could be wrong.

For me personally, there are many more opportunities to seek treasure elsewhere than any alleged treasure relating to Captain Kidd or the alleged charts connected to him.

Crow

 

[Bocaj]

Possibly, I do not know. I would like someone to post the 1839 article. For anyone interested, that is the path for further research. However, I am more inclined to doubt 1839 story will bring anything much more to light. But I could be wrong.

For me personally, there are many more opportunities to seek treasure elsewhere than any alleged treasure relating to Captain Kidd or the alleged charts connected to him.

Crow

I don't care much about Kidd neither but there might be a connection to Avery. Those newspaper stories could shred a light on it.

If anyone here has access to those documents It would be of great value to our research here to get a copy of them.

 

[Crow]

Regarding Avery. Digital Archives: The "East India Company: India Office Records from the British Library, 1595-1947" collection is available for digital research, often with handwritten text recognition (HTR) technology. India Office Records (British Library): Holds the largest collection of EIC documents (1599–1947), comprising over 175,000 items, including official publications, manuscripts, and maps.

Records regarding the British East India Company (EIC) from 1695 are primarily located within the India Office Records at the British Library, specifically within the Factory Records for Fort St. George (Madras) and general Court Minutes. This period was marked by intensifying competition with French traders and efforts to secure trade factories.

Letters Despatched/Received (1694–1696): The archives contain copies of correspondence (IOR/G/3/20, IOR/G/3/22, IOR/G/3/23) detailing the exchange of letters in the mid-1690s. Which might bring to light interesting information.

Whether there is a connection to Avery treasure and Kidd's claimed treasure is an interesting hypothesis.

Crow

 

[Crow]

My apologies, we have diverted from the context of the original post. Fate of the alleged kid Palmer maps.

Crow

 

[Cryptid1990]

I found one of the sources (Springfield Republican) quoted in The Nautical Magazine and Naval Chronicle (1849).

There is an old thread:

A CAPTAIN KIDD TREASURE STORY

Palmer is home to it's share of legends, but one of the most intriguing is that of the Captain Kidd letter found on the property of Samuel Shaw in 1849. Legend has it that two young Shaw men were out hunting rabbits when their dog chased one under a stone ledge. They reached in and found a glass...

www.treasurenet.com

To summarise: a letter dated 1701 was allegedly found in a bottle in a ledge of rocks or cave in Palmer, Massachusetts by two boys in 1849; the letter was from Robert Kidd addressed to John Bailey Esq. of New York. The letter mentioned the location of two treasure chests "containing from fifteen to twenty thousand pounds sterling, in money, jewels and diamonds." The letter was written "Robert Kidd". There is no evidence William Kidd called himself or was known as Robert Kidd during his lifetime. The alternative name appeared in ballads a century after his death so this is proof the letter was not genuine and it was later proven to be a hoax.

It seems Rebecca Simson made a mistake in her online article:

The letter in the bottle has nothing to do with the Kidd-Palmer maps. She muddled some of her references. If you read her book Why We Love Pirates, she mentions "sealed bottles" so must gave meant to 1849 hoax.

Page 94

Her online article confused references by omitting Graham Harris' Treasure and Intrigue.

The best source for the 1849 bottle hoax is the book Pirate Laureate: The Life and Legends of Captain Kidd by W. H. Bonner (1947).

I own a copy. See pages 144-145.

There is no doubt it is a hoax since one of the boy's father (Samuel Shaw) admitted in court to forging the letter.

However, the other boy's father wrote a biography of Kidd and tried to pass-off the letter as genuine:

 

[Bocaj]

I found one of the sources (Springfield Republican) quoted in The Nautical Magazine and Naval Chronicle (1849).

View attachment 2248524

There is an old thread:

A CAPTAIN KIDD TREASURE STORY

Palmer is home to it's share of legends, but one of the most intriguing is that of the Captain Kidd letter found on the property of Samuel Shaw in 1849. Legend has it that two young Shaw men were out hunting rabbits when their dog chased one under a stone ledge. They reached in and found a glass...

www.treasurenet.com

To summarise: an letter dated 1701 was allegedly found in a bottle in a ledge of rocks or cave in Palmer, Massachusetts by two boys in 1849; the letter was from Robert Kidd addressed to John Bailey Esq. of New York. The letter mentioned the location of two treasure chests "containing from fifteen to twenty thousand pounds sterling, in money, jewels and diamonds." The letter was written "Robert Kidd". There is no evidence William Kidd called himself or was known as Robert Kidd during his lifetime. The alternative name appeared in ballads a century after his death so this is proof the letter was not genuine and it was later proven to be a hoax.

It seems Rebecca Simson made a mistake in her online article:

View attachment 2248539
View attachment 2248540

The letter in the bottle has nothing to do with the Kidd-Palmer maps. She muddled some of her references. If you read her book Why We Love Pirates, she mentions "sealed bottles" so must gave meant to 1849 hoax.

Page 94

View attachment 2248538
View attachment 2248545

View attachment 2248544

Her online article confused references by omitting Graham Harris' Treasure and Intrigue.

The best source for the 1849 bottle hoax is the book Pirate Laureate: The Life and Legends of Captain Kidd by W. H. Bonner (1947).

I own a copy. See pages 144-145.
View attachment 2248546

There is no doubt it is a hoax since one of the boy's father (Samuel Shaw) admitted in court to forging the letter.

However, the other boy's father wrote a biography of Kidd and tried to pass-off the letter as genuine:

View attachment 2248532

Thanks a lot - the research of that lady looked a bit odd in any case but it was good to check it out. At least it tell a story of continued interest in Kidd's treasure who's legend became so much bigger than the man himself. I always wonder why? Avery was by any measure infinitely more successful, his treasure is even documented in archived letters. Why KIdd? He wasn't even a real pirate but a privateer who got unlucky...

 

[gjb]

I’ve now sold a significant portion of Wilkins’ files, particularly correspondence concerning his attempts to trace the origins of Palmer’s maps, this also being the source of the instructions he copied onto his own. Also gone are Wilkins’ photographic copies of Palmer’s maps and the Yunnan Parchment and correspondence with sources in Nova Scotia (Gilbert Hedden, James Nolan, Robert Herman Westhaver and Robert Gay).

I imagine that the new owner may eventually post here but, like me and others in a similar position, is unlikely to reveal anything that might lead someone else to be first to the prize in an active quest.

It’s clear from posts here that people consider where the maps ultimately went to be more important than where they originally came from thereby identifying who now holds the originals from which Palmer’s maps and Wilkins’ instructions were copied. I continue to believe that this is a grave mistake.

I’d also observe that nobody ever approached me to see the material in confidence, preferring instead to charge that failure to publish is evidence of falsity, that the material therefore doesn’t exist and that what's being presented as fact is fake. I’ve observed before, why go out of your way to insult and alienate the holder of information that you absolutely need to see if you're serious about the subject?

My advice is that, if you get another chance, you don’t act the same way.

 

[CapnGeorge]

I’ve now sold a significant portion of Wilkins’ files, particularly correspondence concerning his attempts to trace the origins of Palmer’s maps, this also being the source of the instructions he copied onto his own. Also gone are Wilkins’ photographic copies of Palmer’s maps and the Yunnan Parchment and correspondence with sources in Nova Scotia (Gilbert Hedden, James Nolan, Robert Herman Westhaver and Robert Gay).

I imagine that the new owner may eventually post here but, like me and others in a similar position, is unlikely to reveal anything that might lead someone else to be first to the prize in an active quest.

It’s clear from posts here that people consider where the maps ultimately went to be more important than where they originally came from thereby identifying who now holds the originals from which Palmer’s maps and Wilkins’ instructions were copied. I continue to believe that this is a grave mistake.

I’d also observe that nobody ever approached me to see the material in confidence, preferring instead to charge that failure to publish is evidence of falsity, that the material therefore doesn’t exist and that what's being presented as fact is fake. I’ve observed before, why go out of your way to insult and alienate the holder of information that you absolutely need to see if you're serious about the subject?

My advice is that, if you get another chance, you don’t act the same way.

Quote; .'.....someone else to be first to the prize in an active quest' There is no Kidd treasure prize associated to the maps. The maps gone - but not forgotten, I have the negatives. The correspondence, - interesting for those who like reading letters that offer no help to solving the charts, all you need is the lat and long quoted with the code key figure 1' in front of them. Wilkins fooled everyone, he knew/found the source of the lat and long in the Anson/Webb file, confirmed by the coded figures in the Webb letters and the cypher on Ansons Shepherds of Arcadia monument, the defining proof. So with respect Geoff, sounds like you may be retiring, I wish you well, I think you may have been at this game a bit longer than me! Perhaps i should stop telling (sorry, offering suggestions) everyone where to look. Again to the critics, all I do is offer practical and logical answers, your perogative if you wish to ignore but it would be nice to see your answers to 'Where did the figures come from?'

 

[gjb]

Quote; .'.....someone else to be first to the prize in an active quest' There is no Kidd treasure prize associated to the maps. The maps gone - but not forgotten, I have the negatives. The correspondence, - interesting for those who like reading letters that offer no help to solving the charts, all you need is the lat and long quoted with the code key figure 1' in front of them. Wilkins fooled everyone, he knew/found the source of the lat and long in the Anson/Webb file, confirmed by the coded figures in the Webb letters and the cypher on Ansons Shepherds of Arcadia monument, the defining proof. So with respect Geoff, sounds like you may be retiring, I wish you well, I think you may have been at this game a bit longer than me! Perhaps i should stop telling (sorry, offering suggestions) everyone where to look. Again to the critics, all I do is offer practical and logical answers, your perogative if you wish to ignore but it would be nice to see your answers to 'Where did the figures come from?'

The prize I was referring to is finding the source of the originals from which the Palmer maps and Wilkins’ map instructions were taken. Wilkins’ files show that his thinking about a solution to the maps was all over the place, but he was thorough and focused in his search for the people he knew were holding the background information and the maps' provenance that he was most eager to obtain.

The photographic images of the maps and Yunnan Parchment that were in Wilkins’ files more than likely predate those that you have. Indications are that they were taken prior to 1941 by Palmer himself who fancied himself as a photographer. There are clearly some interesting differences between these images and those that have been published. Since you and I never really saw eye to eye, we never got together to compare them. Yet another opportunity missed. Wilkins also possessed a tracing of that portion of the ‘Coral Island Map’ or ‘Skull Chart’ that was drawn in red ink which I believe is highly pertinent, though also now out of my hands.

Wilkins’ correspondence with his brother and others, on matters such as this, is of some interest, particularly providing an opportunity to compare what he was saying publicly with what he was thinking and doing privately. I merely picked up on Wilkins’ own quest to find answers, attempting to follow up his leads as I hope the new owner will now follow up mine. Nevertheless, I still hold a good portion of the Wilkins-related material I obtained over the years including several unpublished books and a dozen very rare signed first editions. I also hold four copies of his rarest book, 'Mysteries of the Great War'!

I am indeed withdrawing from the quest after fifty-odd years and, for some time, had been looking for somebody who would follow up the leads that I’m now becoming unable to pursue. Unfortunately, though I had very much hoped, there was nobody on this forum who showed any interest at all in the direction of Wilkins’ quest and who could thus have had all the information I held for free.

 

[Cryptid1990]

I’ve now sold a significant portion of Wilkins’ files, particularly correspondence concerning his attempts to trace the origins of Palmer’s maps, this also being the source of the instructions he copied onto his own. Also gone are Wilkins’ photographic copies of Palmer’s maps and the Yunnan Parchment and correspondence with sources in Nova Scotia (Gilbert Hedden, James Nolan, Robert Herman Westhaver and Robert Gay).

I imagine that the new owner may eventually post here but, like me and others in a similar position, is unlikely to reveal anything that might lead someone else to be first to the prize in an active quest.

It’s clear from posts here that people consider where the maps ultimately went to be more important than where they originally came from thereby identifying who now holds the originals from which Palmer’s maps and Wilkins’ instructions were copied. I continue to believe that this is a grave mistake.

I’d also observe that nobody ever approached me to see the material in confidence, preferring instead to charge that failure to publish is evidence of falsity, that the material therefore doesn’t exist and that what's being presented as fact is fake. I’ve observed before, why go out of your way to insult and alienate the holder of information that you absolutely need to see if you're serious about the subject?

My advice is that, if you get another chance, you don’t act the same way.

Harold T. Wilkins' unpublished files should have been published for everyone to access on a website. I presume there would be no issue with copyright if the owner released them into the public domain (voluntary relinquishment). Even if they were released by someone who did not own the copyright - considering the age of the documents (many of them date to the 1930s) and the fact some of Wilkins' published books are in the public domain, I do not think anyone would take legal action for posting his unpublished letters/manuscripts on the internet.

Note that some of Wilkins' correspondence with Hedden is already in the public domain (see here and here).

If I owned Wilkins' or Palmer's files I would have uploaded everything free to read online.

 

[Cryptid1990]

The prize I was referring to is finding the source of the originals from which the Palmer maps and Wilkins’ map instructions were taken. Wilkins’ files show that his thinking about a solution to the maps was all over the place, but he was thorough and focused in his search for the people he knew were holding the background information and the maps' provenance that he was most eager to obtain.

I reached the opposite conclusion. Wilkins was a poor researcher who accepted at face value the provenance of the Morgan and Hardy Chests without even trying to verify if Dan Morgan and Pamela Hardy were real people. In his book (1935) and articles he did not question the pedigree notes that came with the two chests, for example, the Hardy Chest:

The Listener (19 June 1935), p. 1065:

It is clear Wilkins never met or corresponded with Hardy (this is also apparent from his private correspondence with Palmer based on snippets I read, you quoted elsewhere) and he contradicts the date of her supposed death. In his book (p. 319), he says she died in 1931, but in his articles he says she died in 1929 or 1930. The provenance from Ned Ward ---> Ward's great-grandson ---> Thomas Masterman Hardy ---> John Hardy ---> Pamela Hardy does not make sense for reasons covered in the other thread and there are also discrepancies with the chronology. However, Wilkins never questioned this pedigree note with the chest. In 1947 (12 years after his book), he continued to not question the pedigree (see New Facts About Mysterious Captain Kidd and His Skeleton Island Chests).

I am aware of an alleged photo of Dan Morgan but Wilkins never verified that was him in the photo. Furthermore, both myself and Crow have searched online and not found any records of Dan Morgan matching the details Wilkins provided. Can you provide any information on the photograph?

Anthony Howlett (1958) and George Edmunds (1996) did minimal to no research on the provenance of the Hardy/Morgan Chests and like Wilkins accepted at face value Pamela Hardy and Dan Morgan existed and these chests were passed on exactly as the pedigree notes say. Howlett was incredibly inept in my opinion. So what we had from Wilkins (1935), Howlett (1958) to Edmunds (1996) was over 60 years of people sloppily not bothering to fact check and verify the provenance of the maps.

All that said, I do not believe that Wilkins was a conman, liar or fraud (as Randawg72/CapnGeorge have claimed). I see no evidence of intentional falsehood, or deception in any his literature. His publisher demanded an image of a treasure map and since Palmer refused him to copy the maps in his possession, he was left with making one up as a substitute. Within a few months of his 1935 book being published, he admitted this in an article published in The Listener (3 July 1935) and later admitted this to Hedden when he met him. He was though not a competent researcher and was deeply eccentric with many irrational beliefs and ideas.

The photographic images of the maps and Yunnan Parchment that were in Wilkins’ files more than likely predate those that you have. Indications are that they were taken prior to 1941 by Palmer himself who fancied himself as a photographer. There are clearly some interesting differences between these images and those that have been published. Since you and I never really saw eye to eye, we never got together to compare them. Yet another opportunity missed. Wilkins also possessed a tracing of that portion of the ‘Coral Island Map’ or ‘Skull Chart’ that was drawn in red ink which I believe is highly pertinent, though also now out of my hands.

Wilkins’ correspondence with his brother and others, on matters such as this, is of some interest, particularly providing an opportunity to compare what he was saying publicly with what he was thinking and doing privately. I merely picked up on Wilkins’ own quest to find answers, attempting to follow up his leads as I hope the new owner will now follow up mine. Nevertheless, I still hold a good portion of the Wilkins-related material I obtained over the years including several unpublished books and a dozen very rare signed first editions. I also hold four copies of his rarest book, 'Mysteries of the Great War'!

Can you name these unpublished books? I am aware one was named The Phantom War of the Flying Saucers. Wilkins' Mysteries of the Great War, is worth £500-£1,000. Are you aware of the 1942 article by Wilkins on the Kidd-Palmer maps in The Trident?

I am indeed withdrawing from the quest after fifty-odd years and, for some time, had been looking for somebody who would follow up the leads that I’m now becoming unable to pursue. Unfortunately, though I had very much hoped, there was nobody on this forum who showed any interest at all in the direction of Wilkins’ quest and who could thus have had all the information I held for free.

Why not publish the information so everyone can read it? CapnGeorge is also refusing to make stuff public. I take a different approach. If I had in my possession what you and CapnGeorge had, I would post it online for everyone to read. I have uploaded lots of stuff to these threads to share. There is only one exception: I found the fictional pirate character Dan Morgan was almost certainly based on from a 19th century newspaper (right now I am keeping this to myself as I am writing an article but I will though probably one day post this here.)

 

[gjb]

Harold T. Wilkins' unpublished files should have been published for everyone to access on a website. I presume there would be no issue with copyright if the owner released them into the public domain (voluntary relinquishment). Even if they were released by someone who did not own the copyright - considering the age of the documents (many of them date to the 1930s) and the fact some of Wilkins' published books are in the public domain, I do not think anyone would take legal action for posting his unpublished letters/manuscripts on the internet.

Note that some of Wilkins' correspondence with Hedden is already in the public domain (see here and here).

If I owned Wilkins' or Palmer's files I would have uploaded everything free to read online.

I see you’re obviously quite the altruist! Over the past fifty or so years, I’ve spent a great deal of time and money researching the world of treasure hunting in the 1930s to 1960s obtaining correspondence, personal files, papers, books and magazines centring around Wilkins and his circle.

I particularly note that you’re saying that Hedden’s correspondence with Wilkins is of no consequence because it’s freely available on the internet, but I see no correspondence from Hedden. Correspondence goes both ways, and just one side of it is exactly that - one-sided.

I’m fully aware from comments, and particularly from the many insults I’ve received on this forum, that the results of my efforts are considered of no significance and that no credence whatsoever is to be given to the results of my research.

I would observe that being polite, open-minded and receptive can work wonders. If you insist on declaring that people are talking nonsense and that you know better than they do about what was going on then you clearly don’t want to listen. As I’ve said, you clearly believe that you can proceed without the help of others and the information they may be privy to. If you telegraph that this is what you want then that is what you're likely to get.

The information I hold, and once held, obviously has no value to you, as you belittle the results of its use, so there’s no point in your seeing it. Nobody here ever wanted to assist in my totally valueless research, so why would anyone need access to information I may hold? It seems it's widely considered to be useless, because it's potential impact is totally ignored, so how would it help?

It does seem you wish to carry on insulting, criticising and belittling others. You apparently think this works, though I feel that you could have come back to the forum with a much better attitude and response than this.

 

[gjb]

I reached the opposite conclusion. Wilkins was a poor researcher who accepted at face value the provenance of the Morgan and Hardy Chests without even trying to verify if Dan Morgan and Pamela Hardy were real people. In his book (1935) and articles he did not question the pedigree notes that came with the two chests, for example, the Hardy Chest:

View attachment 2251024

The Listener (19 June 1935), p. 1065:

View attachment 2251027

It is clear Wilkins never met or corresponded with Hardy (this is also apparent from his private correspondence with Palmer based on snippets I read, you quoted elsewhere) and he contradicts the date of her supposed death. In his book (p. 319), he says she died in 1931, but in his articles he says she died in 1929 or 1930. The provenance from Ned Ward ---> Ward's great-grandson ---> Thomas Masterman Hardy ---> John Hardy ---> Pamela Hardy does not make sense for reasons covered in the other thread and there are also discrepancies with the chronology. However, Wilkins never questioned this pedigree note with the chest. In 1947 (12 years after his book), he continued to not question the pedigree (see New Facts About Mysterious Captain Kidd and His Skeleton Island Chests).

I’ve tried to point out previously that what Wilkins believed from 1934 to the mid-1940s was not what he believed thereafter. You’re quoting from the early period without considering what may have transpired to suggest that he could have changed his mind.

I am aware of an alleged photo of Dan Morgan but Wilkins never verified that was him in the photo. Furthermore, both myself and Crow have searched online and not found any records of Dan Morgan matching the details Wilkins provided. Can you provide any information on the photograph?

Wilkins must have mentioned something about Morgan in a letter to Palmer because Palmer wrote to him on May 19th 1934 saying, “I purchased the Sunday Dispatch for May 6th and cannot find Morgan mentioned we have looked, do you remember which page it was on?” I never followed this up, but you may be able to do so.

Anthony Howlett (1958) and George Edmunds (1996) did minimal to no research on the provenance of the Hardy/Morgan Chests and like Wilkins accepted at face value Pamela Hardy and Dan Morgan existed and these chests were passed on exactly as the pedigree notes say. Howlett was incredibly inept in my opinion. So what we had from Wilkins (1935), Howlett (1958) to Edmunds (1996) was over 60 years of people sloppily not bothering to fact check and verify the provenance of the maps.

All that said, I do not believe that Wilkins was a conman, liar or fraud (as Randawg72/CapnGeorge have claimed). I see no evidence of intentional falsehood, or deception in any his literature. His publisher demanded an image of a treasure map and since Palmer refused him to copy the maps in his possession, he was left with making one up as a substitute. Within a few months of his 1935 book being published, he admitted this in an article published in The Listener (3 July 1935) and later admitted this to Hedden when he met him. He was though not a competent researcher and was deeply eccentric with many irrational beliefs and ideas.

Wilkins is correct, he did make up the maps (the outline and content), but he didn't make up the instructions that went with them. He copied these from another source.

Can you name these unpublished books? I am aware one was named The Phantom War of the Flying Saucers.

I don’t have Wilkins’ unpublished typescript, The Phantom World of the Flying Saucer: A Red Light in the Age of Space Travel, but I did gain access to it and have read it.

On page 13 of the book, Wilkins writes: “It is not unlikely that the apparent lack of public interest arises from the hosts of pseudo-mystic cranks, gate-crashers, spielers, purveyors of spurious messages from space, writers and publishers of hoaxing books in which mendacity and sheer fantasy are represented as veridical fact; the alleged telepathic revelations of secrets of worlds unknown, the pullulation of stories of alleged trips to other planets and back. all of which have contributed to cover a serious subject with ridicule and contempt.” It's typical Wilkins, but he certainly got that right!

The unpublished manuscripts / typescripts that I have are:

1. As She is Spoke and Wrote: The Comic Letter-bag by Post, Wire and Wireless.

2. Robert the Devil: Being the Crime-Detection and Humorous Adventures of ‘A Simple Young Country Cha-ap’ (fiction written during WWII under the pen-name of Solomon Maggs.)

3. Black Magic and Bloody Pirates (an early version of A Modern Treasure Hunter, or a follow-up)

4. Death Valley Island: Eastward Ho! with Captain William Kidd (a novel)

5. The Winged Bull: The Strange Life and Adventures of A.H. Layard

6. Our Wonderful World: Marvels and Magic of the Machine Age (written during WWII)

7. Lost World: A Novel of Strange Adventure (also described as Adventures in a Dead City in Darien). Fiction but with autobiographical accounts of his early life.

8. The Giants of the Antediluvian World: Mysteries of Prehistory in the Old and New Worlds. This follows on from his South America books

The last two are mentioned in an article in Fortean Times 105 p.52:‘Homage to Wilkins’.

Wilkins' Mysteries of the Great War, is worth £500-£1,000. Are you aware of the 1942 article by Wilkins on the Kidd-Palmer maps in The Trident?

I recently saw a copy of Mysteries of the Great War going for £750. As to the article, I recall once searching unsuccessfully for an issue of The Trident Magazine concerning one of the charts. I think it was No. 47 or so of an early volume, perhaps Vol 4? Is that it?

Why not publish the information so everyone can read it? CapnGeorge is also refusing to make stuff public. I take a different approach. If I had in my possession what you and CapnGeorge had, I would post it online for everyone to read. I have uploaded lots of stuff to these threads to share. There is only one exception: I found the fictional pirate character Dan Morgan was almost certainly based on from a 19th century newspaper (right now I am keeping this to myself as I am writing an article but I will though probably one day post this here.)

I've now passed on quite a large portion, so it's mostly out of my hands, though I've still got some of Palmer's letters. The new owner may well make the material accessible, but unfortunately I had to pay a considerable amount to get the information and the buyer may be as reluctant as I was to simply give it away. In any event, the material mostly concerns the search for the originals of the Palmer maps together with the instructions on Wilkins' maps which you believe to be fake anyway. So, it's no great loss!

 

[Cryptid1990]

I’ve tried to point out previously that what Wilkins believed from 1934 to the mid-1940s was not what he believed thereafter. You’re quoting from the early period without considering what may have transpired to suggest that he could have changed his mind.

Wilkins died in 1960 and the last article I am aware of he published on the Kidd-Palmer maps was an article in FATE ("Mystery of the Pirates Chart"). However, this leaves a decade and you stated he was going to publish an article in Coronet in the 1950s. As I noted in one of my other comments, I searched all issues of Coronet (which are uploaded to the Internet Archive) for Wilkins' name and other relevant search terms, to confirm that he never published an article; the publisher must have rejected to publish for whatever reason.

It is probable that Wilkins published his article in another magazine. I have been searching and came across a possibility. I do not yet have confirmation but someone is going to provide a table of contents for me on Monday. The magazine Men Only in 1951 (April) published an issue with Captain Kidd on front cover. I think Wilkins could have published an article in this issue (waiting to confirm).

Wilkins was still publishing articles in FATE from 1951-1955:

• Wilkins, Harold T. (Mar. 1951), "The Abominable Snowmen", FATE 4 (2)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Apr. 1951), "1,000 Years of Flying Saucers", FATE 4 (3)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (May 1951), "Mystery of the Falling Ice", FATE 4 (4)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Aug. 1951), "The Strange Mystery of the Foo Fighters", FATE 4 (6)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Jan. 1952), "Giants in the Earth", FATE 5 (1)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Feb. 1952), "Noises in the Light Tower", FATE 5 (2)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Jun. 1952), "History of the Talking Mongoose", FATE: 58-69
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Jul. 1952), "Pixie Haunted Manor", FATE 5 (5)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Feb. 1953), "Mystery of the Ghost Bullets", FATE 6 (2)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Mar. 1953), "The Mummy's Hand", FATE 6 (3)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Apr. 1953), "When the Skies Rained Blood", FATE 6 (4)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Jul. 1953), "Clairvoyant Discovers Lost Gold", FATE 6 (7)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Sep. 1953), "Bredon Hill", FATE 6 (9)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Sep. 1953), "Phantom Marchers of Crete", FATE 6 (9)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Oct. 1953), "Did Ancients See Flying Saucers", FATE 6 (10)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Nov. 1953), "They Fly Through the Air", FATE 6 (11)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (Dec. 1953), "Fortean Events in Ancient Times", FATE 6 (12)
• Wilkins, Harold (Mar. 1955), "Mary Stuart's Diamonds of Death", FATE 8 (3)

I have published multiple articles in FATE (hence my interest). The magazine has published a lot of pseudoscience and fringe science but also sporadically publishes sceptical articles (it is a mixed bag) so I decided to publish there. Interestingly, it has published many fellows of CSICOP including L. Sprague de Camp, Philip J. Klass, Susan Blackmore, Larry Kusche, David Marks, and Gordon Stein. Notable sceptical articles include: Rick Moran and Peter Jordan, “The Amityville Horror Hoax,” FATE 31, no. 5 (1978): 43-47; Philip J. Klass “The Other Side of the Coyne Encounter,” FATE 31, no. 12 (1978): 72-82; Larry D. Kusche “The Bermuda Triangle and Other Hoaxes,” FATE 28, no. 10 (1975): 48-56; Susan Blackmore “The Making of a Skeptic,” FATE 39, no. 4 (1986): 69-75; David F. Marks “The Case Against the Paranormal,” FATE 42, no. 1 (1989): 84-92 (reprinted in O’Neill, Terry (ed.), Paranormal Phenomena – Opposing Viewpoints (San Diego, CA: Greenhaven Press, 1991).

Wilkins also published the following books (1952-1959):

• Wilkins, Harold T. (1952), Secret Cities of Old South America: Atlantis Unveiled, London: Rider and Co.
• Wilkins, Harold T. (1954), Flying Saucers on the Attack, New York: Citadel Press — also published as Flying Saucers on the Moon (London: Peter Owen Ltd., 1954)
• Wilkins, Harold T. (1955), Flying Saucers Uncensored, New York: Citadel Press.
• Wilkins, Harold T. (1958), Mysteries Solved And Unsolved, London: Odhams Press Ltd.
• Wilkins, Harold T. (1959), Strange Mysteries of Time and Space, New York: Citadel Press.

Wilkins was still publishing a year prior to his death. I believe it is likely that from 1951-1959, he published other articles on the Kidd-Palmer maps but they have not been digitised online (for example, one article possibly in Men's Only). Why would he have stopped writing on the maps in 1950, when he continued writing on UFOs for another nine years?

The 1950s article(s) will shed light on what Wilkins thought about the maps in the last decade of his life and if he actually changed his viewpoint. However, it should be noted that if you compare his mid-1930s articles to late 1930s, and 1940s, he already changed his mind on a few things. He originally (1935) disputed or denied that Captain Kidd visited and buried treasure on Oak Island:

However, in 1939, he wrote: "Capt. Kidd was in Oak Island, in 1669-70, and I have (May 1938) found strange clues to his unsuspected cache there." (Treasure Hunting: The Treasure-Hunter's Own Book of Land Caches and Bullion Wrecks, second edition [1939], p. 259). In 1940, he changed his mind again, to believe it was Captain Henry Avery (not Kidd) who buried treasure on Oak Island:

His thinking was all over the place and you said something similar about his private files. There is no evidence that Kidd or Avery travelled to Oak Island let alone buried a treasure there. Even the poster Bocaj who seems to know a lot about Avery does not seem to believe this. Wilkins was always pretty irrational in terms of his beliefs but I think the worst thing that happened to him was meeting Gilbert Hedden, who told him the instructions on his fictional Mar Del map matched some landmarks on Oak Island. This turned him non compos mentis and he then had delusions he was either the reincarnation of a pirate or believed instructions were created by paranormal 'automatic writing'. It is clear that it was also Hedden who was the reason he changed his mind to believe Kidd traveled to Oak Island. Prior to meeting him, he dismissed Oak Island as a "yarn", joked journalists who published stories on it were "following each other likes arses" and realised Kidd "voyaged no farther northwards along the American shores than Long Island sound, and the neighbourhood of New York". Yet after meeting Hedden, within months, he believed Kidd went to Oak Island.

Wilkins must have mentioned something about Morgan in a letter to Palmer because Palmer wrote to him on May 19th 1934 saying, “I purchased the Sunday Dispatch for May 6th and cannot find Morgan mentioned we have looked, do you remember which page it was on?” I never followed this up, but you may be able to do so.

You can do it for free on newspapers.com. Although you need a subscription to read and download articles, you can for free search "Dan Morgan" in every Sunday Dispatch (1801–1961). I already did this months back since I came across you mentioning the Sunday Dispatch in your book or previous comments on this forum. There are only four matches:

No Sunday Dispatch in 1934 mentioned Dan Morgan. In fact, none did in the 1920s or 1930s. There are only snippets of the articles but based on these and the dates (1888, 2 x 1947 and 1914) none of these are the Dan Morgan described by Wilkins and Palmer.

This is more evidence Dan Morgan never existed. Combined with the absence of evidence from records (birth, obituaries, etc) and other records Crow looked at (captains of ships), this proves Dan Morgan never existed. As I earlier noted, I have very likely found the fictional character he was based on. However, I do not know who was in the photograph Wilkins was shown by Palmer.

Note that I also searched Sunday Dispatch for all name variations of Dan Morgan including Daniel Morgan. Nothing for the year 1934. Daniel Morgan produces 21 matches but they are almost all from the 1870s-1880s and one from 1944. Based on the extract free to read for the latter it is not the same Dan Morgan described by Wilkins or Palmer but the manager of a company.

Wilkins is correct, he did make up the maps (the outline and content), but he didn't make up the instructions that went with them. He copied these from another source.

This is contradicted by his own writings (including in his 1950 article) and what he told Gilbert Hedden:

You have also presented no evidence that he copied these instructions from somewhere. Even if you disagree you would have to admit 50% of Wilkins' instructions are imaginary. As you know there are two variations of the Mar Del map. They were drawn at different times since his publisher wanted a frontispiece last moment so Wilkins had to rely from memory hence the discrepancies.

I don’t have Wilkins’ unpublished typescript, The Phantom World of the Flying Saucer: A Red Light in the Age of Space Travel, but I did gain access to it and have read it.

On page 13 of the book, Wilkins writes: “It is not unlikely that the apparent lack of public interest arises from the hosts of pseudo-mystic cranks, gate-crashers, spielers, purveyors of spurious messages from space, writers and publishers of hoaxing books in which mendacity and sheer fantasy are represented as veridical fact; the alleged telepathic revelations of secrets of worlds unknown, the pullulation of stories of alleged trips to other planets and back. all of which have contributed to cover a serious subject with ridicule and contempt.” It's typical Wilkins, but he certainly got that right!

I agree with the quote but Wilkins himself was never a serious contributor to ufology. I've spent nearly two decades being involved in the UFO community (albeit as a sceptic) and even believers in the extraterrestrial hypothesis for UFOs don't tend to have kind words to say about him. His books and articles on UFOs are only useful in the sense he compiled some reports of unusual aerial phenomena from pre-20th century literature.

The unpublished manuscripts / typescripts that I have are:

1. As She is Spoke and Wrote: The Comic Letter-bag by Post, Wire and Wireless.

2. Robert the Devil: Being the Crime-Detection and Humorous Adventures of ‘A Simple Young Country Cha-ap’ (fiction written during WWII under the pen-name of Solomon Maggs.)

3. Black Magic and Bloody Pirates (an early version of A Modern Treasure Hunter, or a follow-up)

4. Death Valley Island: Eastward Ho! with Captain William Kidd (a novel)

5. The Winged Bull: The Strange Life and Adventures of A.H. Layard

6. Our Wonderful World: Marvels and Magic of the Machine Age (written during WWII)

7. Lost World: A Novel of Strange Adventure (also described as Adventures in a Dead City in Darien). Fiction but with autobiographical accounts of his early life.

8. The Giants of the Antediluvian World: Mysteries of Prehistory in the Old and New Worlds. This follows on from his South America books

The last two are mentioned in an article in Fortean Times 105 p.52:‘Homage to Wilkins’.

Thanks, I appreciate this list. Would you ever consider publishing some of these unpublished books?

I recently saw a copy of Mysteries of the Great War going for £750. As to the article, I recall once searching unsuccessfully for an issue of The Trident Magazine concerning one of the charts. I think it was No. 47 or so of an early volume, perhaps Vol 4? Is that it?

It is the May issue of 1942 which is no. 37, vol. 4. Note that The Trident also published correspondence and it is possible Wilkins responded to someone who wrote sent him a letter about the article. I know where I can access all this stuff (the archives at Imperial War Museums).

I've now passed on quite a large portion, so it's mostly out of my hands, though I've still got some of Palmer's letters. The new owner may well make the material accessible, but unfortunately I had to pay a considerable amount to get the information and the buyer may be as reluctant as I was to simply give it away. In any event, the material mostly concerns the search for the originals of the Palmer maps together with the instructions on Wilkins' maps which you believe to be fake anyway. So, it's no great loss!

Not really my "belief" since Wilkins admitted he made them up in his articles and in private to Hedden. He continued to admit the instructions came from his imagination (not that he copied them) in his 1950 article but by that point he had delusions he was a reincarnated pirate or the instructions he unconsciously made by automatic writing/some sort of paranormal entity was involved.

 

[gjb]

Not really my "belief" since Wilkins admitted he made them up in his articles and in private to Hedden. He continued to admit the instructions came from his imagination (not that he copied them) in his 1950 article but by that point he had delusions he was a reincarnated pirate or the instructions he unconsciously made by automatic writing/some sort of paranormal entity was involved.

I no longer have the correspondence between Harold and Gordon on this subject, but I have to say that you and others are making a huge mistake in this. You argue that Wilkins was less than honest, but strangely insist that everything he wrote to a serious competitor concerning his research was true! He was dissembling! He wasn't going to tell Hedden what he knew!

I've actually seen material from this source, though I can't prove that I have, and I was introduced to it indirectly through Wilkins' correspondence. It's stunning, which is why I've tried so hard to track down the owners to encourage them to reveal it, and why I'm so frustrated that nobody is trying to find this source simply because they choose to declare that they know for a fact that it doesn't exist. You profess to have an interest in getting to the bottom of this matter but, in reality, you have none where it really matters. You're going to get nowhere, and I don't intend to be here to watch you fail as a result of your short-sightedness and bias.