Legend vs Realitiy

[Blindbowman]

True. We use the common English spelling strictly for our own convenience. Same goes for the Taos and other SW Pueblos' legends.

Many/most of the ethnologists and anthropologists who interviewed the North American indigenous people were well-intended I guess, but IMO their work is likely only an outline of any sort of complete cultural/historical package. There are many reasons for this, but mistrust of the white man is likely the strongest. The earliest Spanish in South and Central America set a clear precedent. North American Natives withstood the later onslaught as well as they could, but the traditionalists have always kept the most important information to themselves. White guys will never get the best secrets from them.

View attachment 1761220
Destroyed Franciscan church, Taos Pueblo

...
.........sorry I disagree . the Spanish did not do this . the King did ,when leaders get total control with out the public over sight their greed gets the best of them and when one king, one man has so much power bad things are the future profits and greed ... no matter who is standing in their way .. what took place is nothing less then genocide . no matter what color the suspect or victims are .these seven caves must be made public when the common law protects all no matter who you are or what color you may be ..lets get this perfectly clear .. a reward great, a finders fee I am happy .. but these treasures belong to the native American tribes and no one else , not the government or any one else ...

 

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[Ol' Kentuck]

Kentuck,

Not sure why you posted the pic of the Joseph II Coin, but if it is for the item at the center, it is called a "Globus Cruciger". It was a sign of power and basically means "God above the world below". God rules over the Earth. I believe this is a pic of Joseph II's actual Globus Cruciger:

View attachment 1761200

Mike

Thank you, Mike, for highlighting the significance of the Globus Cruciger as a symbol of Power. While not my primary intent on posting the pic, it does emphasize the adaptation and use of the Double Headed Eagle by the Holy Roman State and the Habsburg Monarchy.

The reverse is quite interesting as well.

Again, Thanks Gollum, for your knowledgeable input.


The Double Headed Eagle did not become an Aztec symbol until after the Spanish conquest, when the Aztec eagle was supplanted by the double headed Imperial Eagle of the Habsburgs–the insignia of the ruling dynasty in Spain.

The 'Double Eagle' was in use long before though, its origin in Hittite Iconography during the Late Bronze Age, between 1550 - 1200 BCE. It didn't reappear until the Middle Ages, c. 10th-11th century AD, in use by the East Roman Empire.

It is my opinion that this coin holds the answer to several questions; Who put the treasures there, Where they came from, and Who was looking for it in the more recent past.

In addition to replying to Steve, my post was also in reference to the link Hillbilly Prince posted earlier...

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/a...van-quivara-related-gold-like-conjecture.html

The Hittites, an Anatolian people, make for an interesting study, especially in their iconography. The museum at Ankara has an outstanding display. I found it interesting to note that they had mastered the art of smelting iron during the Late Bronze Age, in particular their use of Meteorites. Both the Hopewell culture and several Native American sites within the Southwest have been found to use Meteorites as well.

Meteor Collecting Among Ancient Americans

As a further interesting side note, the Anatolians were also Mound Builders.

Perhaps a comparison of the Aztec culture and Mound Builder cultures from the eastern U.S. with that of the Hittites might prove interesting?

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

In my research I came across this story about Montezuma and the founding of Mexico that has been kicking around New Mexico since the 1840's.

View attachment 1760992

 

[Blindbowman]

the two headed serpent should be the image of the Montezuma ll .. the first Montezuma is shown in the codex being born ,that codex dose not show anything in the modern world ...that shows us how old the seven caves are ..when the 3 tribes from North America or Aztlan wed with the 3 tribes from South America that first Montezuma is the image of the feather serpent ,like the feather serpent in stone near the stone cube I posted ...

 

[sdcfia]

Thank you, Mike, for highlighting the significance of the Globus Cruciger as a symbol of Power. While not my primary intent on posting the pic, it does emphasize the adaptation and use of the Double Headed Eagle by the Holy Roman State and the Habsburg Monarchy.

The reverse is quite interesting as well.

Again, Thanks Gollum, for your knowledgeable input.


The Double Headed Eagle did not become an Aztec symbol until after the Spanish conquest, when the Aztec eagle was supplanted by the double headed Imperial Eagle of the Habsburgs—the insignia of the ruling dynasty in Spain.

The 'Double Eagle' was in use long before though, its origin in Hittite Iconography during the Late Bronze Age, between 1550 - 1200 BCE. It didn't reappear until the Middle Ages, c. 10th-11th century AD, in use by the East Roman Empire.

It is my opinion that this coin holds the answer to several questions; Who put the treasures there, Where they came from, and Who was looking for it in the more recent past.

In addition to replying to Steve, my post was also in reference to the link Hillbilly Prince posted earlier...

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/a...van-quivara-related-gold-like-conjecture.html

The Hittites, an Anatolian people, make for an interesting study, especially in their iconography. The museum at Ankara has an outstanding display. I found it interesting to note that they had mastered the art of smelting iron during the Late Bronze Age, in particular their use of Meteorites. Both the Hopewell culture and several Native American sites within the Southwest have been found to use Meteorites as well.

Meteor Collecting Among Ancient Americans

As a further interesting side note, the Anatolians were also Mound Builders.

Perhaps a comparison of the Aztec culture and Mound Builder cultures from the eastern U.S. with that of the Hittites might prove interesting?

The diffusionist David Allen Deal offers some interesting conjectures re the Aztec migration. Starting at the pyramids at Cahokia, east of St. Louis (celestial observations), the next major move may have allegedly been to Chaco Canyon (another observatory). Then to Tenochtitlan (observation structures on steroids).

╫ OT: Since you've broached the general topic of ruling families/groups, hidden histories, symbology/heraldry, treasure, et al, I'm wondering if any readers here happened to have saved any of the unfortunately purged TNet posts by the fellow who used the names 'Cat Jockey' and 'Nobody' (big N) about 2014-2017? I'd like to revisit his material. Here's a rare surviving example: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/503661-something-new-about-lue.html#post5489208 ╫

 

[Blindbowman]

Gregory Dominguez : tried to misled the truth ...he would say what he thinks he must to protect the seven caves .. the truth about chicomoztoc is not here in his words .... Death is still a slow answer ..!

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

The diffusionist David Allen Deal offers some interesting conjectures re the Aztec migration. Starting at the pyramids at Cahokia, east of St. Louis (celestial observations), the next major move may have allegedly been to Chaco Canyon (another observatory). Then to Tenochtitlan (observation structures on steroids).

╫ OT: Since you've broached the general topic of ruling families/groups, hidden histories, symbology/heraldry, treasure, et al, I'm wondering if any readers here happened to have saved any of the unfortunately purged TNet posts by the fellow who used the names 'Cat Jockey' and 'Nobody' (big N) about 2014-2017? I'd like to revisit his material. Here's a rare surviving example: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/503661-something-new-about-lue.html#post5489208 ╫

Thanks for the link, this feller sounds slightly familiar.

Interesting summation if you can get past the euphemisms, lol.

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

Thank you, Mike, for highlighting the significance of the Globus Cruciger as a symbol of Power. While not my primary intent on posting the pic, it does emphasize the adaptation and use of the Double Headed Eagle by the Holy Roman State and the Habsburg Monarchy.

The reverse is quite interesting as well.

Again, Thanks Gollum, for your knowledgeable input.


The Double Headed Eagle did not become an Aztec symbol until after the Spanish conquest, when the Aztec eagle was supplanted by the double headed Imperial Eagle of the Habsburgs—the insignia of the ruling dynasty in Spain.

The 'Double Eagle' was in use long before though, its origin in Hittite Iconography during the Late Bronze Age, between 1550 - 1200 BCE. It didn't reappear until the Middle Ages, c. 10th-11th century AD, in use by the East Roman Empire.

It is my opinion that this coin holds the answer to several questions; Who put the treasures there, Where they came from, and Who was looking for it in the more recent past.

In addition to replying to Steve, my post was also in reference to the link Hillbilly Prince posted earlier...

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/a...van-quivara-related-gold-like-conjecture.html

The Hittites, an Anatolian people, make for an interesting study, especially in their iconography. The museum at Ankara has an outstanding display. I found it interesting to note that they had mastered the art of smelting iron during the Late Bronze Age, in particular their use of Meteorites. Both the Hopewell culture and several Native American sites within the Southwest have been found to use Meteorites as well.

Meteor Collecting Among Ancient Americans

As a further interesting side note, the Anatolians were also Mound Builders.

Perhaps a comparison of the Aztec culture and Mound Builder cultures from the eastern U.S. with that of the Hittites might prove interesting?

I neglected to mention that this could also explain why the Aztecs may have initially greeted the Spanish invaders as long lost friends, showering them with gifts. The arrival of a group of men bearing the Two Headed Eagle insignia must have been familiar. Unfortunately for them it wasn't who they thought it was.

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

the two headed serpent should be the image of the Montezuma ll .. the first Montezuma is shown in the codex being born ,that codex dose not show anything in the modern world ...that shows us how old the seven caves are ..when the 3 tribes from North America or Aztlan wed with the 3 tribes from South America that first Montezuma is the image of the feather serpent ,like the feather serpent in stone near the stone cube I posted ...

I apologize, I overlooked this post Bowman.

I am afraid I have to disagree regarding the two headed snake symbolizing Montezuma II.

The double headed snake was considered a symbol of War and Subjugation to the Mixtec.

An example would be the Codice Zouche-Nuttall, a 14th century Mixtec codex recording the conquests made by several 11th and 12th century rulers of a small Mixtec city-state in highland Oaxaca, the Tilantongo kingdom.

If the Aztec/Mixtec ruler, Montezuma I, led the migration to Mexico in the 12th century ( mid 1100's ), he must have lived a very long life. The Aztecs spent two centuries of migrating and warfare before they finally settled in Mexico City in appx. 1325 - 1345.

Considering the Mixtec codex record shown above clearly dates the double headed snake war symbol to the 11th and 12th century conquests ( c. 1000 - 1100 AD ), and likely predates Montezuma I, it isn't very likely to depict Montezuma II, wouldn't you agree?


Edited to add: The appearance of the Spanish invaders bearing the Two Headed Eagle with Serpent symbol would have made them appear to be 'Brethren', or Allies. Therein lies the difference you are no doubt considering.

 

[Blindbowman]

I apologize, I overlooked this post Bowman.

I am afraid I have to disagree regarding the two headed snake symbolizing Montezuma II.

The double headed snake was considered a symbol of War and Subjugation to the Mixtec.

An example would be the Codice Zouche-Nuttall, a 14th century Mixtec codex recording the conquests made by several 11th and 12th century rulers of a small Mixtec city-state in highland Oaxaca, the Tilantongo kingdom.

If the Aztec/Mixtec ruler, Montezuma I, led the migration to Mexico in the 12th century ( mid 1100's ), he must have lived a very long life. The Aztecs spent two centuries of migrating and warfare before they finally settled in Mexico City in appx. 1325 - 1345.

Considering the Mixtec codex record shown above clearly dates the double headed snake war symbol to the 11th and 12th century conquests ( c. 1000 - 1100 AD ), and likely predates Montezuma I, it isn't very likely to depict Montezuma II, wouldn't you agree?


Edited to add: The appearance of the Spanish invaders bearing the Two Headed Eagle with Serpent symbol would have made them appear to be 'Brethren', or Allies. Therein lies the difference you are no doubt considering.

there are only 27 known codex that pre date Cortes ,the oldest known codex is the first Chichimeca ..seven caves .. it shows the birth of Montezuma and how the serpent got his Feathers to start with .. the feather serpent first shows up in stone in the 1500BCE so we know for a fact the first Montezuma was called Quetzalcoatl ! but remember the baby being born in the seven caves . his mother was from the snake tribe and the gift to her some was the two headed snaked that is in the British museum ,they don't under stand what the symbolic means yet .. it stand for the link between her and her son that's why the snakes face different directions ...a lot of the latter culture copied the early symbolism to show how powerful they were ... do you know what the two headed Eagle ,,,...? go back to the seven caves Chichimeca Codex look close . above the left side where the brides family comes from . you will see the eagle warrior and above him you see the leopard skin walker .. now look at the whole codex symbolism you have the eagle on the brides side and the feathered south American tribes . thus the two headed Eagle is the same person the baby in the codex ... ...we in the modern world forget often that the culture in question believed in reincarnation and thus the soul and spirit Quetzalcoatl would be reborn life after death and so on . so to them Montezuma's soul and spirit never really dies , his human body lives and dies as humans do ... .. as you said :The double headed snake was considered a symbol of War and Subjugation to the Mixtec, to Mixtec it would because that symbolisms is how the Mixtex would see it .. remember the seven caves codex and you will under stand where the starting point began.. we can see how the first Montezuma had the two head snake neck symbolic around his neck ...but for anyone else to show the symbolic would bring war and dis balance ...by show Montezuma was only part of the North American tribes when in fact he was part of both tribal worlds North and South America ...

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

there are only 27 known codex that pre date Cortes ,the oldest known codex is the first Chichimeca ..seven caves .. it shows the birth of Montezuma and how the serpent got his Feathers to start with .. the feather serpent first shows up in stone in the 1500BCE so we know for a fact the first Montezuma was called Quetzalcoatl ! but remember the baby being born in the seven caves . his mother was from the snake tribe and the gift to her some was the two headed snaked that is in the British museum ,they don't under stand what the symbolic means yet .. it stand for the link between her and her son that's why the snakes face different directions ...a lot of the latter culture copied the early symbolism to show how powerful they were ... do you know what the two headed Eagle ,,,...? go back to the seven caves Chichimeca Codex look close . above the left side where the brides family comes from . you will see the eagle warrior and above him you see the leopard skin walker .. now look at the whole codex symbolism you have the eagle on the brides side and the feathered south American tribes . thus the two headed Eagle is the same person the baby in the codex ... ...we in the modern world forget often that the culture in question believed in reincarnation and thus the soul and spirit Quetzalcoatl would be reborn life after death and so on . so to them Montezuma's soul and spirit never really dies , his human body lives and dies as humans do ... .. as you said :The double headed snake was considered a symbol of War and Subjugation to the Mixtec, to Mixtec it would because that symbolisms is how the Mixtex would see it .. remember the seven caves codex and you will under stand where the starting point began.. we can see how the first Montezuma had the two head snake neck symbolic around his neck ...but for anyone else to show the symbolic would bring war and dis balance ...by show Montezuma was only part of the North American tribes when in fact he was part of both tribal worlds North and South America ...

You obviously have your own beliefs,and are welcome to them, but again I will have to disagree. I do not believe there is any point in continuing this conversation, but might I suggest you cozy up with another member here by the name of Backwoods Bob, the two of you seem to have similar divergent thoughts. Good luck in your travels and happy hunting.

 

[Blindbowman]

I fully agree with you , I was not looking for the seven caves at all .. but the fact remain ,there they are ...lol this is the craziest thing I have ever seen . you have 3 or 4 legend hidden under a rock and topped off with a lost city of Cibola and a old remains of a Jesuit church no one knew was even in superstition mountains ,in fact I am more surprised then any of you are ,because I know I am that good at what I do ...I cant change reality unless I get very drunk and I have not had a wild water for over 28 years ...lol

 

[Blindbowman]

some people hear and feel things that others don't in fact some of these gifted types of people are very rare threw out the human race ... :....

 

[Blindbowman]

lol hahhahahahha ,......[h=3]Origin[/h]
Manco Cápac and Mama Ocllo, children of the Inti


The Inca people were a pastoral tribe in the Cusco area around the 12th century. Incan oral history tells an origin story of three caves. The center cave at Tampu T'uqu (Tambo Tocco) was named Qhapaq T'uqu ("principal niche", also spelled Capac Tocco). The other caves were Maras T'uqu (Maras Tocco) and Sutiq T'uqu (Sutic Tocco).[SUP][20][/SUP] Four brothers and four sisters stepped out of the middle cave. They were: Ayar Manco, Ayar Cachi, Ayar Awqa (Ayar Auca) and Ayar Uchu; and Mama Ocllo, Mama Raua, Mama Huaco and Mama Qura (Mama Cora). Out of the side caves came the people who were to be the ancestors of all the Inca clans. I told you the 3 caves on the right were from south America ... ! I am correct ...! these are the seven caves and south America feather tribes like the Inca were part of the wedding in the Chichimeca Codex all North & South America tribes came from the seven caves ...

 

[Blindbowman]

look what he says . a center cave and they stepped out of the middle cave of 3 caves on the right side . see he list the 4 male names of the Inca tribes first then list the brides side with 4 names starting with Mama ,then look at the wording close "out of the side caves" he is talking about the other 3 caves on the other side of the center cave .. that's 6 of the seven caves for the wedding and one is the shaman over seer...that is 7 caves ...look at women's names ( Ocllo , Raua , Huaco, Qura, (Cora) ) their tribes ...cora mother must be his word for the principal niche shaman .. so the seven caves shaman was a woman at the time of the wedding .. ..

 

[markmar]

i am a immortal stuck on a planet of humans !

 

[Holyground]

we all seek the truth ,was there a Lost Dutchman Mine or not ? we all know if there was we most likely will here about it being found first and be happy that someone found it ...some of of us paid a price for looking for the legend . some of us will be paying till our dying day ...I think back to a time when me and my brother hiked up cardiac mountain . 2/3 of the way up the mountain he started bleeding out the noise . when I saw it I stopped and ask him to set down and don't move .. he wanted to reach the top of the mountain but I said stop and wait get control of your self first ,so we stopped and waited about 15 minutes we would go a few dozen yards then rest , we did that 5 or 6 times before we reach the top of the mountain ,his doctor would latter say this saved his life but it didn't end there ,he would live the rest of his life with a bad heart condition that would make the last 7 years of his life one of suffering and pain ... he loved the hunt and we spent many hours talking about the LDM ..the next expedition I would make alone and tell no one ...I had found most of the clues and then I realized where the mine was as I walked up the tailing pile I came to a place where there was one way out and only one way in , I stood there for about 10 minutes think what now Waltz were you full of **** or is there a reason for leaving me standing here like a fool ..I reached out and slap my hands on a large rock and I herd a cracking sound under me about 2 ft down under the tailing pile I was standing on the mine ... I turn and ran for my life , I came so close to being killed . I ran 300 yards before I stop to catch my breath ,and I look back and realize I had been standing on top of the fill Waltz covered the mine with ...the next morning I left and headed home back to NY by my self but not alone ,for the next 7 years 6 of my family and friends would die ,one each year ,after 7 years I said what next then Ron got sicker and the 7 years of surfing started for him as I watched now it is over and he rest and waits for me to go back one more time ...they say it is the richest gold mine in the world , then I ask you , why don't I feel happy about finding it ...? almost all my family is gone or dying and here I wait and I know I will be going back ....Waltz was Dutch Germany . just like me . I could hear him yelling come back , come back . I still do at times .. he was happy to know it had been found ...is this why Waltz did not want Julia to work the mine, when he covered the mine over he did not realize what would happen . the timbers are old and weak now and the mine is a trap waiting to kill the person that finds it . but I was lucky and ran like the wind for my life no matter how much Gold was just below my feet ... now I set here telling you my story ..I don't feel lucky . I don't feel rich or rewarded for the hard battle ..I am just sad so many people have lost their life hunting for a gold color rock .. ,now I know how Waltz felt when he ran for his life and knew where the richest gold mine in the world was waiting for him to return and now it waits for me ...!

Would you just answer me one question? Did you find it North or South of the Salt River? If you don't want to answer that is fine too.

 

[Blindbowman]

if I had not seen A2coins as your friend I might have answered you ...

 

[Al D]

Typical evasive response

 

[Holyground]

if I had not seen A2coins as your friend I might have answered you ...

Well I hope you don't see me, with my ragged company, but you know I could never be alone. Take me down Little Suzi, take me down. I know you think you're the queen of the underground. You can send me dead flowers every morning. Send me dead flowers by the U.S. Mail. Send me dead flowers to my wedding, and I won't forget to put roses on your grave.