She was only 3 days old.

[Bigcypresshunter]

I posted this here last year, but have yet to positively ID. We have some new members and I could get some new thoughts. It is silver and very THIN like a tag and the size of a quarter. Its hand engraved on the front in Old English copperplate script:

Jo-Ann L. Hall
12-30-43--1-2-44

There are some official looking numbers on the back: G-1506.

The back is also hand engraved. The numbers may coincide with a US military grave plot but what cemetery?... What century?

Plot G- Row 15- Grave 06?

 

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[Nitric]

My bad!!!! RJC is back! I didn't know he was back! I wasn't paying attention!

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks for playing along, BTW: It is spelled Crispin. Why do people keep throwing in the "e." Here is some more information...

Fonts, typefaces and all things typographical ? I love Typography (ILT)

Could you explain in laymans terms? In your own words?


Look I dont want to mix threads but since we are having a conversation here, I happen to believe its possible you may have found reales. I am keeping an open mind. The shipwreck forum guys are very experienced and they have offered to help you make a positive ID. Im sorry I am unable to help and you dont want my help anyway. thats my best suggestion. The shipwreck guys are good. They know reales/cobs/spanish treasure a ton better than I and you will get your answer from them....if you want it. I have already started a post over there. I could delete it if you prefer. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/spanish-cobs/468894-melted-spanish-reales.html

 

[Crispin]

What does ligature mean?

definition number two

 

[Crispin]

Could you explain in laymans terms? In your own words?

Sure: A ligature simply means a reduced combination of letters to from a word. A "tie" symbolized that this has been done. In our case...



Look at the first Letter....You think it says Jo. Ann. However, in most scripts to form a J it must clearly cross over the straight up and down line. This one clearly does not, that leads me to believe it is a T followed by a "o." Hence the word "To-" then followed by Ann.

Now, look at the next word, We have an obvious tie at the top, that arc looking thing, then (based on the script I looked at that you provided) what can easily be seen as an "F" followed by an "o." The tie would shorten the word to "Fo" as opposed to "From." This might seem like a small difference, but when you are trying to cram letters onto a silver circle the tie saves the space of two letters. Do you see what I am talking about?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Sure: A ligature simply means a reduced combination of letters to from a word. A "tie" symbolized that this has been done. In our case...

View attachment 1199789

Look at the first Letter....You think it says Jo. Ann. However, in most scripts to form a J it must clearly cross over the straight up and down line. This one clearly does not, that leads me to believe it is a T followed by a "o." Hence the word "To-" then followed by Ann.

Now, look at the next word, We have an obvious tie at the top, that arc looking thing, then (based on the script I looked at that you provided) what can easily be seen as an "F" followed by an "o." The tie would shorten the word to "Fo" as opposed to "From." This might seem like a small difference, but when you are trying to cram letters onto a silver circle the tie saves the space of two letters. Do you see what I am talking about?

To Ann from Hull? Well first of all, the J dips well below the horizontal line and I hate repeating myself. (see pic below)It looks nothing like the T that does not cross below the imaginary line.

But thanks for explaining the tie in laymans terms but its clearly connected to what I believe is the letter L. A tie does not connect to any other letters, correct? I hope you are reading this.



I think the only upper case letters that dip below are the J and the Y. Maybe its Yo lol (wink)

 

[Crispin]

I am not directing this at anybody specifically and it probably should have its own thread, but this is an observation I have made:

I grew up in an Academic environment where we started with a "null hypothesis" and then attempted to reject it. Basically stated, we assumed our hypothesis was false until we could find enough evidence to support within a predefined statistical probability that it was true. This was defined by both the "power" of the study and the degree of certainty, most studies use a 95% or greater chance based on statistical data gathered.

Hence, when we were writing papers would we conclude that we either "Rejected the null hypothesis" of "Failed to reject the null hypothesis." If we failed to reject the null hypothesis then that meant the study turned up nothing. If we rejected the null hypothesis then that meant we found a "correlation" between the hypothesis and the variables. We would then criticize our own studies to point out basis, confounding variables, and other outlaying interference's. Irregardless, we did not use the word "causation." A study could never prove causation but only show a correlation.

It appears that most people on this site work the opposite. They come up with a theory that shows a cause and then reject all evidence that opposes it. This type of thinking fails at its very core. It is a simple matter of inductive and deductive reasoning. No matter how many white swans one person sees (a 100, a 1000, a million) it does not mean the next swan one sees may not be black.

Do you understand this or do I need to break it down into Layman's terms.

 

[Crispin]

A tie abbreviates letters. Irregardless of what the letters are...something is being abbreviated in the second word. Okay, out for the night. Good luck, we take it up in the AM.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

OK I see in the scan it looks like its not connected. I have the item in storage. I will take a closer look under a loupe. Keep in mind that my friend sanded this tag/coin with sandpaper to remove the encrustation(yikes!) and then I polished it down with silver polish to remove some of the heavy scratches so I could read it. Parts of the engraving are therefore missing so it looks like a tie when I believe its actually connected to the L.

 

[Nitric]

BCH....I have a ton of examples on things from love tokens to watches. I'm packing to leave for two weeks and can't dig them all out right now. I'll see If I can find some quick and post pics. I had a heck of a time trying to figure out what the names were. That style of writing gets complicated and doesn't always even match a known pattern your going to find on the net. Each person kind of created their own style at times. I'll try to find one of the tough ones I ran across. One little mark makes a difference in some cases. I wish I had time to dig them all out for you to look at. I'll see what I can find tonight quick. So, what they are saying could be right! And it could be a combination of things and styles depending on the carver, or engraver or whatever their name was. I thought for sure something was an F I looked and Looked. It ended up being I. (don't remember exact letters) Then the little marks can change everything!

Maybe you guys are already past all this. I was running around and coming back to the computer. So, I didn't see all posts, by the time I wrote that and posted you guys were further along!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

A tie abbreviates letters. Irregardless of what the letters are...something is being abbreviated in the second word. Okay, out for the night. Good luck, we take it up in the AM.

I hope not lol. I have to start packing because Im headed to the Everglades swamp for 8 months. I wont be posting much here anymore. Good night.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

BCH....I have a ton of examples on things from love tokens to watches. I'm packing to leave for two weeks and can't dig them all out right now. I'll see If I can find some quick and post pics. I had a heck of a time trying to figure out what the names were. That style of writing gets complicated and doesn't always even match a known pattern your going to find on the net. Each person kind of created their own style at times. I'll try to find one of the tough ones I ran across. One little mark makes a difference in some cases. I wish I had time to dig them all out for you to look at. I'll see what I can find tonight quick. So, what they are saying could be right! And it could be a combination of things and styles depending on the carver, or engraver or whatever their name was. I thought for sure something was an F I looked and Looked. It ended up being I. (don't remember exact letters) Then the little marks can change everything!

Maybe you guys are already past all this. I was running around and coming back to the computer. So, I didn't see all posts, by the time I wrote that and posted you guys were further along!

Yes there are many different styles and it soon became apparent that they didnt know that, so how could they be right? . The first letter is either an I or a J. If it dips below the line, it has to be a J. Am I right or wrong? Have you ever seen a T pass below the line? You are gonna have to show me an example.


Yes they are hard to read especially entangled and intertwined but I have had some experience. Study the Ts and study the Js and you should be able to spot the difference. Is and Js are a bit harder.


Look here how the J is the only upper case letter that dips below the imaginary horizontal line. (sometimes a Y) Now look at the T. You dont see the difference?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

G.I.B. I apologize. I thought you were questioning the upper case A. There is no doubt its an A. If you were referring to the lower case a, in Hall, then yes, it is suspect. However under a loupe I can see the engraver almost connecting the top.

Its hard for me to read all these comments thoroughly and respond.

 

[Nitric]

Yes there are many different styles and it soon became apparent that they didnt know that, so how could they be right? . The first letter is either an I or a J. If it dips below the line, it has to be a J. Am I right or wrong? Have you ever seen a T pass below the line? You are gonna have to show me an example.


Yes they are hard to read especially entangled and intertwined but I have had some experience. Study the Ts and study the Js and you should be able to spot the difference. Is and Js are a bit harder.


Look here how the J is the only upper case letter that dips below the imaginary horizontal line. (sometimes a Y) Now look at the T.

View attachment 1199801

What I was trying to say? There are no rules. There are, but........ I was referring to the slashes,tilde....By the time I got done writing and posting. You guys had passed me up. I have a real good example Of the Letters that you are talking about now, and of course the camera is not wanting to cooperate. SO, I can't win.

I ran into this same problem, I'm sry my memory sucks on some things! I studied and studied couldn't figure it out. Luckily it was a private label watch from the mid to late 1800's and I found the name in a new york ad from the same time period by accident looking up a different piece. There was enough that I understood that clicked. The letters do not look like the letters they are at all. Anyhow, I'll back up and read the thread now that I'm sitting down. lol

I changed my mind. I'm going to look and see what I come up with before reading anymore of the thread, Then come back and read from there. Or I'll get all confused!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

At first I thought it said LeKill or LeKull, but upon closer inspection it really is not that hard to read. I am able to see strokes that may not be apparent in the pictures. Dont forget parts of the engraving strokes are worn off. I even thought it said 1944 at first but its clearly a 2 under magnification.

I havent looked at it for a few years but I will try to dig it out. There is little doubt that its an uppercase A and an uppercase H. The first letter looks nothing like a T. The only possibilty that I am willing to accept that the lowercase a may possibly be a u but I doubt it. I have had years to study this.

To-Ann F.o (from) Hall is a slight possibility but I dont think so because the first letter dips so far under and it doesnt look like an F and there is a clear dot after L..
To Jo-Ann L. Hall is more likely a possibility but even without the dip, it still doesnt look like a T..


Thanks GIB, crispin, nitric, DCMatt, Breezie, nhbenz, trikikiwi and anybody else I might have missed.. I appreciate the suggestions even if I disagree with some of them.

 

[Reed Lukens]

He is saying that it could be a carryover. SO what I see is " To Ann Lo. Hall" with the L carried over to show there is more. The name read with a carryover abbreviation could be To Ann Love Hall or Jo Ann Love Hall or if you are sure that the first letter is a J instead of a T it would be Jo Ann Love Hall. J or T makes a small difference in the first name but Love Hall is from Hall probably. Could be a memory tag from a short honeymoon.

 

[Nitric]

I think......Jo-Ann L. Hull or To- Ann L. Hull .........At first look. Now, I'll go back and read all the posts. And see if my mind changes after looking at the info posted from all you guys. I'm way way behind!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

He is saying that it could be a carryover. SO what I see is " To Ann Lo. Hall" with the L carried over to show there is more. The name read with a carryover abbreviation could be To Ann Love Hall or Jo Ann Love Hall or if you are sure that the first letter is a J instead of a T it would be Jo Ann Love Hall. J or T makes a small difference in the first name but Love Hall is from Hall probably. Could be a memory tag from a short honeymoon.

At first thought I like this theory. But I have to think about it more. The problem is I think the carryover is attached to the L but hardly visible. I need to take another look.

It would be a World War II honeymoon New Years day 1944. Dont forget I found it in front of a US Navy tracking Station after a hurricane stripped 10 feet of sand off the beaches. The erosion was much worse than this picture after hurricane Irene.. exposing long buried shipwreck treasures.

 

[Reed Lukens]

I'm sure that it is attached to the L, it's supposed to be for the abbreviation carryover

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Those 3 days during the war in 1943/44 would be Friday, Saturday, and Sunday with Saturday being New Years Day.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'm sure that it is attached to the L, it's supposed to be for the abbreviation carryover

So its OK for the tie/typography/carryover to be attached to the letter L?

And you think its an L?