The Heart

[cuzimloony]

That Utah guy, La Van Martineau, is considered an authority on native petroglyphs. As I recall, he ID's the spiral as meaning "spring nearby". Others have their own interpretations, but at your site, it seems like that could be the case.

See anything interesting in these?
I think I see a Spanish/Templar cross on the 3rd one and the last one. I found these this morning. I think these are the ones found by Brunderlin that he said was "Spanish."

Edit: 5th picture down. Right hand side. A stick horse. Remind you of anything.....?

 

[sgtfda]

You have gotten around today.

 

[cuzimloony]

You have gotten around today.

Woke up at 5. In the mountains by 6. Home by 1
Was in Hewitt and Millsite. Saw people coming in as I was leaving. Suckers..... it's 120 degrees out there right now.
Found this too.....

 

[sdcfia]

See anything interesting in these?
I think I see a Spanish/Templar cross on the 3rd one and the last one. I found these this morning. I think these are the ones found by Brunderlin that he said was "Spanish."

Edit: 5th picture down. Right hand side. A stick horse. Remind you of anything.....?

To me those two crosses (first one anyway) look more like a Christian cross on a pedestal.

I've seen photos of big stick horses. Might be something to look for.

Petroglyphs are interesting, especially when the same symbols seem to repeat - some very old and weathered, and the same showing up possibly hundreds or more years later, even on the same panel. They say the Spanish would camouflage their carved messages within panels of older native ones. Or was it the KGC that did that?

 

[cuzimloony]

To me those two crosses (first one anyway) look more like a Christian cross on a pedestal.
View attachment 2219626
I've seen photos of big stick horses. Might be something to look for.

Petroglyphs are interesting, especially when the same symbols seem to repeat - some very old and weathered, and the same showing up possibly hundreds or more years later, even on the same panel. They say the Spanish would camouflage their carved messages within panels of older native ones. Or was it the KGC that did that?
View attachment 2219627

Yeah I see in your panel there an old faded cross, and an updated one. Hmmmm interesting.
Equilateral crosses are more Templar and less Spanish, no? Spitballin'... I have no idea.

About the horse, I was thinking about the 700 foot long one we discussed.

Found an ankh-like thing too kinda like the one in your book....but it has arms pointing up, no legs, it seems....wait...maybe there are legs, but faded.

 

[sdcfia]

Yeah I see in your panel there an old faded cross, and an updated one. Hmmmm interesting.
Equilateral crosses are more Templar and less Spanish, no? Spitballin'... I have no idea.

About the horse, I was thinking about the 700 foot long one we discussed.

Found an ankh-like thing too kinda like the one in your book....but it has arms pointing up, no legs, it seems....wait...maybe there are legs, but faded.
View attachment 2219631

At first glance it looks like the common "Hey look!" carving, but you're right, the head's shape isn't the usual round shape. You never know . . . well, except the person who carved it.

 

[cuzimloony]

I'd forgotten about this. I was in touch with a guy who was deep into a Heart Mountain project back in 1997. The story he told me was astonishing and he sent me a bunch of photo prints, including the one below, which I scanned. The other photos are somewhere in my file boxes and the other one I remember was an 800' horse intaglio.

View attachment 2216521

So........
I was looking through Charles Kenworthy's book about the Lost Dutchman. Imagine my surprise when I opened the book and saw HEART MOUNTAIN!

 

[sdcfia]

Yeah, I had that book once - bought it for my complete Kenworthy 1st edition collection at the time. I forgot this page was in it, as I didn't pay much attention to the LDM. His books are regarded as holy texts by many, but I sold the LDM one in a moment of blasphemy. I have four of his left - I'd better repent and hold on to the two he signed.

As an outsider who's never poked around in the Superstitions, IMO those intaglios are the most intriguing signs in the region. The heart, yes the heart.

 

[point hunter]

"So........
I was looking through Charles Kenworthy's book about the Lost Dutchman. Imagine my surprise when I opened the book and saw HEART MOUNTAIN!"

No offense, but I just can't agree with the author. Not because of who it is, because I think the info is bogus.
How do we know these intaligos are Spanish in nature? Can anyone show other examples similar in the field created by the Spanish? I can think of many examples contributed to one dead/lost tribe or the other, but not to the Spanish. Rock piles, carvings on rock, mines, marked trails for man and beast, but nothing of this nature. So, if it is Spanish, why this site, why just this area?

 

[cuzimloony]

"So........
I was looking through Charles Kenworthy's book about the Lost Dutchman. Imagine my surprise when I opened the book and saw HEART MOUNTAIN!"

No offense, but I just can't agree with the author. Not because of who it is, because I think the info is bogus.
How do we know these intaligos are Spanish in nature? Can anyone show other examples similar in the field created by the Spanish? I can think of many examples contributed to one dead/lost tribe or the other, but not to the Spanish. Rock piles, carvings on rock, mines, marked trails for man and beast, but nothing of this nature. So, if it is Spanish, why this site, why just this area?

I didn't say I agreed with Kenworthy so Im not offended.
I have 2 of his books and saw no need to buy any more. These were at Greg's house, so I checked them out. He, Kenworthy, seems to be a storyteller.

However, this mountain IS by an old Spanish trail and its not in the Sups. It is also near an old rail line used by mining companies, and an old mining ghost town. There are some famous 'coke ovens' out this way too........

That index card up there says something about finding someone else's gold and relocating it somewhere else eh...... From the mid 1930's too ta boot.... The book/pamphlet came out in the 1930's, but which Mexico was the author referring to? Modern day Mexico? 1858 Mexico? 1848 Mexico?

I dont think Kenworthy created these symbols though, if that's what you're implying. I have no guesses as to who did, but I have an idea of a timeline. Kenworthy totally fits in my timeline so, I cant rule him out either.

If you go to this place now (you will via a video here soon...) you'll see that the intaglios are almost gone. From what I can tell, they were still visable, albeit not like in the Kenworthy photo, in the 90's when Heart Mountain Project was bulldozing the center of the hearts. (Maybe that was 2000's...)

So from the time Kenworthy took his picture to now, the intaglios have almost completely disappeared except for the shrubbery and vegetation planted inside the hearts to make them stand out after a good rain. That makes me think that these intaglios were originally placed here, sometime not long before Kenworthy's photo. They surely arent from the 1700's. They would have been completely gone by Kenworthy's time, judging by the observable decay rate, UNLESS someone was actively maintaining them...and they would need maintaining. Its ground up rock strewn upon the ground. Wind, rain and gravity would make it disappear fairly quickly.

When did Kenworthy take that pic? Is it his pic? Is it an older pic he found or someone gave him? Did someone put these here to make US spin in circles? Did someone put this here to help them locate treasure? Is it all just for fun, something bored miners or ranchers do? I have surely made rock symbols on the ground for a laugh, but nothing near 700 feet long. Why would a team of men do this?
I dont know to all of the above.
It is fun though innit!

Passage 16: Gila River Canyons – Explore the Arizona Trail

aztrail.org

 

[point hunter]

"So from the time Kenworthy took his picture to now, the intaglios have almost completely disappeared except for the shrubbery and vegetation planted inside the hearts to make them stand out after a good rain. That makes me think that these intaglios were originally placed here, sometime not long before Kenworthy's photo. They surely arent from the 1700's. They would have been completely gone by Kenworthy's time, judging by the observable decay rate, UNLESS someone was actively maintaining them...and they would need maintaining. Its ground up rock strewn upon the ground. Wind, rain and gravity would make it disappear fairly quickly."

There is a story from the early 1960's that says one winter the intaligos were made. It either had to do with that Arizona land grab deal or the Peralta stones. So, don't quote me about the last part, but the time is right and some locals were involved I think. If the intaligo was created in the early 60's, IMHO it would look like it did in the 1990's and to basically being gone today. I do not think Kenworthy had anything to do with the creation of the intaligos. With that said, I do not know who did, but those signs are used by the "organization". But if it was dozer and crane/scraper created for instance it would not take that long to build. Also if you look closely @ the "horse" it looks more like a "7" with a possible "cresent moon"? Then take what was said about the horse and the numbers by Kenworthy. Can anyone show examples of "horses" created by the Spanish using this coded system? I can't. Again, why is this site just assumed by everyone this is Spanish in nature other than it's physical locale?

 

[cuzimloony]

"So from the time Kenworthy took his picture to now, the intaglios have almost completely disappeared except for the shrubbery and vegetation planted inside the hearts to make them stand out after a good rain. That makes me think that these intaglios were originally placed here, sometime not long before Kenworthy's photo. They surely arent from the 1700's. They would have been completely gone by Kenworthy's time, judging by the observable decay rate, UNLESS someone was actively maintaining them...and they would need maintaining. Its ground up rock strewn upon the ground. Wind, rain and gravity would make it disappear fairly quickly."

There is a story from the early 1960's that says one winter the intaligos were made. It either had to do with that Arizona land grab deal or the Peralta stones. So, don't quote me about the last part, but the time is right and some locals were involved I think. If the intaligo was created in the early 60's, IMHO it would look like it did in the 1990's and to basically being gone today. I do not think Kenworthy had anything to do with the creation of the intaligos. With that said, I do not know who did, but those signs are used by the "organization". But if it was dozer and crane/scraper created for instance it would not take that long to build. Also if you look closely @ the "horse" it looks more like a "7" with a possible "cresent moon"? Then take what was said about the horse and the numbers by Kenworthy. Can anyone show examples of "horses" created by the Spanish using this coded system? I can't. Again, why is this site just assumed by everyone this is Spanish in nature other than it's physical locale?

I havent said it was Spanish. Im not sure who did. What did I miss? I think Kenworthy said it was Mexican in that book, but don't quote me on that. I rifled through those pages kinda quick. Maybe thats a moot point though. Was it Spaniards in Mexico? I dunno....
That land grab theory sits well with me. I think all those Peralta mine legends started about that time, which to me calls into question any Peralta mine story. Connected to the land deal sounds as good a theory as Ive heard. Reavis, and the org, were crafty...Im undecided and awaiting further evidence though.....

 

[point hunter]

"I havent said it was Spanish. Im not sure who did. What did I miss? I think Kenworthy said it was Mexican in that book, but don't quote me on that. I rifled through those pages kinda quick. Maybe thats a moot point though. Was it Spaniards in Mexico? I dunno...."

I have to apologize. I was the one that said it. I assumed it was related to the Spaninsh based on Kenworthy's other printed works. I'm not trying to debate his info, which some of which IMHO is valid. But like I said before, neither the Mexicans or the Spanish are known for the creation of intalgios. If others have info/proof to share, I for one would enjoy seeing it. So we are back to the basic questions of who and when right?

 

[cuzimloony]

"I havent said it was Spanish. Im not sure who did. What did I miss? I think Kenworthy said it was Mexican in that book, but don't quote me on that. I rifled through those pages kinda quick. Maybe thats a moot point though. Was it Spaniards in Mexico? I dunno...."

I have to apologize. I was the one that said it. I assumed it was related to the Spaninsh based on Kenworthy's other printed works. I'm not trying to debate his info, which some of which IMHO is valid. But like I said before, neither the Mexicans or the Spanish are known for the creation of intalgios. If others have info/proof to share, I for one would enjoy seeing it. So we are back to the basic questions of who and when right?

No need to apoligize. You might be on to something.
Here is an article putting Reavis, Mr. KGC land grabber, in the area.

 

[cuzimloony]

A thought:

Let's assume for this that Kenworthy himself took the picture of Heart Mountain that is in his book. When would Kenworthy have taken this picture? The book itself came out in 1997, but Tom Kollenborn puts him in the Superstition Mountains (not far away) in 1977 at Charlieboi. I'm going to assume the picture comes from the 70's, for now. It looks old.

James Addison Reavis filed his first claim in 1883 from a brief search, and was here in 1885 according to the article.

There is about an 80 - 90 year span between those two events. In that time, the intaglios would have decayed. I am beginning to rule out land grant related, but not totally. Im still open, just leaning now...

If it were connected to the land grant, then someone else had to have been maintaining it for it to be so awesome when Kenworthy took his picture in the 1970's. That begs the question, why would they maintain it after Reavis went to jail?

I can only think of three options that could resolve this for me. lol. 1. Ranchers or miners passing the day doing rancher/miner things. 2. The Organization, possibly related to the infamous gold relocation events of the 30's (but why would they put that on the mountains if they're HIDING things?) 3. Kenworthy did it. I'll add a runner up: related to the stone maps somehow.

What did I leave out? Yeti did it? A chupacabra? lol. Honestly, what other options are there?

Edit: I left out what Kenworthy himself was saying about the mountain... It's directions to the beginning of the trail to the dutchman mine.

 

[sdcfia]

. . . Again, why is this site just assumed by everyone this is Spanish in nature other than it's physical locale?

Well! . . . all this treasure lore describes "The Spanish", doesn't it? That's the carefully crafted model, after all. The loot is obviously fully documented, therefore proven in a plethora of books, newspaper stories, adventure magazine history accounts and best of all, internet truth forums. Spanish. OK, once in a while a German or a Frenchman, but rarely.

My only confusion comes when trying to decide which Spanish - the Spanish King's boys, or the Pope's boys working out of Spanish territories, or those rascally free agent Spanish on secret missions? Doesn't much matter, I guess. Spanish is Spanish. Those Spanish sure left a lotta treasure in the Southwest USA. I wonder why, after all that hard work, they didn't bother to take it home with them? Oh well, they carved plenty of ducks, turtles and poodles to remind themselves where they had it stashed. All a seeker needs to do is follow the signs, right?

 

[point hunter]

This quote below if by Mattew Roberts, in Treasure Legends, The Lost Dutchman's Mine, Challenge for Superstition Gold post # 66.


"You are 100% correct. It was not the inability to use the Stone Maps to find a supposed treasure that defeated Travis Tumlinson, it was his own ability to continue the search due to his health that would not allow him to continue.
Right up until Travis's death in 1961, Phil Leasman was still continuing their partnership and search and when Travis passed on Leasman and Clarence Mitchell searched on in the Superstitions.
Leasman continued to search and only upon his death in 1970 did his search end.
Upon Leasman's death Mitchell moved to Smith's Flat (Placerville), California where he spent the summers but returned to Apache Junction each winter and searched the mountains until his own health failed and he could search no longer."

I propose these could have possibly been some of the players in the creation of the Intaligos. The dates fit with the other story I read about saying they were created by locals one winter in the early 60's. I'm thinking after Mr. Tumlinson's death and before the other death mentioned in 1970 , the intaligos were created. You also mentioned it was created using crushed rock not scraping the surface back like the natives did. That in itself is odd, so is it still an intaligo or not? Looks like I have more reading to do.
However as far as a time line with Mr. Kenworthy it does fit. This would be especially true if the pic was from the mid 60's say. I would think it would be too fresh looking in the 60's when he was there, but what do I know. And how did he get the info it was the beginning trail of the LDM? That's not the history of the dutch hunters that I am aware of. Just saying.
Now I am not a stone map guy, but I have spent time on them recently. Three men worked them till their health failed or they passed. Why? If they are fake as the experts here are saying now. The land grab thing I mentioned earlier was in regards to Mr. Mitchell. I used to know all the details but its been years since I read it and could have it confused with another story. Just type in the Peralta stones and his name. From what i remember, the whole deal was shady, but do you own research.
As far as Mr. Revis, it's only 2-3 generations from his time to the early 60's. There could easily be generational players involved who are local. These are the ones who could have created the "coke ovens" for instance. They are shaped oddly, found as you said not far from heart mountain, and have mysterious beginnings. Then they are abandoned apparently before the land is really settled. Awful strange don't you think?

 

[point hunter]

"However as far as a time line with Mr. Kenworthy it does fit. This would be especially true if the pic was from the mid 60's say. I would think it would be too fresh looking in the 60's when he was there, but what do I know. And how did he get the info it was the beginning trail of the LDM? That's not the history of the dutch hunters that I am aware of. Just saying."

Sorry I meant to say in the 70's not the 60's. Typo's, Ugn.

 

[cuzimloony]

This quote below if by Mattew Roberts, in Treasure Legends, The Lost Dutchman's Mine, Challenge for Superstition Gold post # 66.


"You are 100% correct. It was not the inability to use the Stone Maps to find a supposed treasure that defeated Travis Tumlinson, it was his own ability to continue the search due to his health that would not allow him to continue.
Right up until Travis's death in 1961, Phil Leasman was still continuing their partnership and search and when Travis passed on Leasman and Clarence Mitchell searched on in the Superstitions.
Leasman continued to search and only upon his death in 1970 did his search end.
Upon Leasman's death Mitchell moved to Smith's Flat (Placerville), California where he spent the summers but returned to Apache Junction each winter and searched the mountains until his own health failed and he could search no longer."

I propose these could have possibly been some of the players in the creation of the Intaligos. The dates fit with the other story I read about saying they were created by locals one winter in the early 60's. I'm thinking after Mr. Tumlinson's death and before the other death mentioned in 1970 , the intaligos were created. You also mentioned it was created using crushed rock not scraping the surface back like the natives did. That in itself is odd, so is it still an intaligo or not? Looks like I have more reading to do.
However as far as a time line with Mr. Kenworthy it does fit. This would be especially true if the pic was from the mid 60's say. I would think it would be too fresh looking in the 60's when he was there, but what do I know. And how did he get the info it was the beginning trail of the LDM? That's not the history of the dutch hunters that I am aware of. Just saying.
Now I am not a stone map guy, but I have spent time on them recently. Three men worked them till their health failed or they passed. Why? If they are fake as the experts here are saying now. The land grab thing I mentioned earlier was in regards to Mr. Mitchell. I used to know all the details but its been years since I read it and could have it confused with another story. Just type in the Peralta stones and his name. From what i remember, the whole deal was shady, but do you own research.
As far as Mr. Revis, it's only 2-3 generations from his time to the early 60's. There could easily be generational players involved who are local. These are the ones who could have created the "coke ovens" for instance. They are shaped oddly, found as you said not far from heart mountain, and have mysterious beginnings. Then they are abandoned apparently before the land is really settled. Awful strange don't you think?

"It was not the inability to use the Stone Maps to find a supposed treasure that defeated Travis Tumlinson..."

Travis Tumlinson created the stone maps. Why would he be using them to find gold?

I was unaware of Mr. Mitchell. I will investigate Thank you for that.

When you mentioned Reavis, my mind went to Elisha, not James. Im straight now, and agree with you, but now Im adding Elisha to the list.

Since Ive been promoted to Bob's LUE spokesman, Ill add in that Bob says Elisha created Circlestone in the Sups, near his ranch. If you look at Circlestone, it has one one flat side. When Bob lays his template over the area, that flat side on Circlestone lines up exactly with a straight line in the "squared circling" of the KGC template. Boy I hope that makes sense! I can see it in my head, but Im having difficulty putting that one into words. Good luck! Lol

Coke oven history. Yes, quite strange. Every local dutchman that Ive talked to gives wishy-washy statements as to who, what, when, where, wjy, etc.... In my own investigations, Ive never been able to come to a resolution either. I understand why their wishy-washy. Those coke ovens, which from what Ive been told only a couple look to have been used, are strange. They look like beehives to me...... Ive personally not seen them so..... take it for what its worth

 

[point hunter]

"It was not the inability to use the Stone Maps to find a supposed treasure that defeated Travis Tumlinson..."

Travis Tumlinson created the stone maps. Why would he be using them to find gold?

I was unaware of Mr. Mitchell. I will investigate Thank you for that.

When you mentioned Reavis, my mind went to Elisha, not James. Im straight now, and agree with you, but now Im adding Elisha to the list.

Since Ive been promoted to Bob's LUE spokesman, Ill add in that Bob says Elisha created Circlestone in the Sups, near his ranch. If you look at Circlestone, it has one one flat side. When Bob lays his template over the area, that flat side on Circlestone lines up exactly with a straight line in the "squared circling" of the KGC template. Boy I hope that makes sense! I can see it in my head, but Im having difficulty putting that one into words. Good luck! Lol

A couple things about Mr. Mitchell: He was involved in MOEL and the stone maps, but he was also an author and published a book in the early 60's. MOEL was oil/gas leases and investor issues not land grab sorry.
"The first reference to Travis Tumlinson's stones as the Peralta Stone Maps was made by Clarence Mitchell (Travis Marlowe) in his 1965 book Superstition Treasures. I don't know why he put the Peralta name with them but it stuck and they became "assumed" to be of Peralta origin..." This is also from Matthew Roberts, The Lost Dutchman Mine, Both sides of the Stone Maps Arguement.
Now I'm just sharing info here that I've found so again, do your own research. But if a man wants to sell some books, a "bogus" intaligo which just happened to be created right before his book comes out, might help in said sales don't you think? Also, if the maps creator is gone and the other player involved is getting ill/on in years I can see how a man might think there's no one left to tell the true story of the stones.