The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[CapnGeorge]

I get back to 'TreasureNet' every few weeks/months just to see if anyone has seen sense yet. Apparently not! Still all arguing and contradicting each other. I still can't believe that people totally dismiss the fact that the 1795 survey map of JFI is not the template used by Wilkins for his maps. It is so 'bleedin' obvious, and JFI has a key role in this saga. I said Wilkins and 'his maps'. I have always said it. You want more proof? His postcard sketch was found amongst his papers after his death. It is a composite sketch of the three charts and marked 'Confidential' at the top. Nobody was meant to see this. Part of the legend on the bottom reads; 'Legend at base (but not as on my chart). Note 'MY CHART'. This is the proof that Wilkins had a hand in all the charts. Now let us see who is the first to say it is all rubbish! The disbelievers can see this postcard on page 242 of 'Anson's Gold'.

 

[BennyV]

I get back to 'TreasureNet' every few weeks/months just to see if anyone has seen sense yet. Apparently not! Still all arguing and contradicting each other. I still can't believe that people totally dismiss the fact that the 1795 survey map of JFI is not the template used by Wilkins for his maps. It is so 'bleedin' obvious, and JFI has a key role in this saga. I said Wilkins and 'his maps'. I have always said it. You want more proof? His postcard sketch was found amongst his papers after his death. It is a composite sketch of the three charts and marked 'Confidential' at the top. Nobody was meant to see this. Part of the legend on the bottom reads; 'Legend at base (but not as on my chart). Note 'MY CHART'. This is the proof that Wilkins had a hand in all the charts. Now let us see who is the first to say it is all rubbish! The disbelievers can see this postcard on page 242 of 'Anson's Gold'.

I stopped following these threads because of the map nonsense. How many times can you beat a dead horse? This popped up on my new posts.

 

[CapnGeorge]

George initially believed in the charts, believing/swayed by Howlets' intensive research over 5 years with access to all of Palmers documents etc. but, always at the back of his mind, 'something isn't right'. Further intensive research since has resulted in his book 'Anson's Gold', which lays bare the truth about the charts. They are fake but contain clues to a real treasure when you know what to look for. There appears to be a lot of people who obviously know better, yet can't prove it! Because they haven't solved it, nobody else can. George goes out of his way to repeat that he is delivering the (untold and unfound) facts for the benefit of the reader/researcher. Your prerogative if you want to rubbish it all. He's not bothered. Like he said, he writes books to tell the untold story, do with the content what you will! For his latest untold story see; georgeedmundswrites.com

 

[Cryptid1990]

I get back to 'TreasureNet' every few weeks/months just to see if anyone has seen sense yet. Apparently not! Still all arguing and contradicting each other. I still can't believe that people totally dismiss the fact that the 1795 survey map of JFI is not the template used by Wilkins for his maps. It is so 'bleedin' obvious, and JFI has a key role in this saga. I said Wilkins and 'his maps'. I have always said it. You want more proof? His postcard sketch was found amongst his papers after his death. It is a composite sketch of the three charts and marked 'Confidential' at the top. Nobody was meant to see this. Part of the legend on the bottom reads; 'Legend at base (but not as on my chart). Note 'MY CHART'. This is the proof that Wilkins had a hand in all the charts. Now let us see who is the first to say it is all rubbish! The disbelievers can see this postcard on page 242 of 'Anson's Gold'.

The postcard is not a composite but a drawing of one of the maps (Coral Island). The postcard reads:

"Confidential.
The Pamela Hardy Chart of Cap. Kidd.
Yellow Parchment.
This is one of four charts identical in shape but not in detail and topography.
Legend at base (but not as on my chart)."

By "my chart" he simply meant the fictional Mar Del map he drew for his book not the so-called (four) Kidd-Palmer maps.

There's no doubt Wilkins drew the Mar Del map and he admitted this on multiple occasions (his name even appears as copyright).

You appear to have misinterpreted the postcard. When Wilkins wrote "my chart" he cannot of meant any of the four Kidd-Palmer maps because he mentioned those on the same postcard ("This is one of four charts identical in shape"). What he was obviously referring to is the Mar Del map since the bottom legend is different than on the Coral Island map. It should be noted that the postcard is owned by Gjb which was given to him by Dave Crooks.

This is not proof whatsoever that Wilkins was involved in the hoax. You are wrong about that like most else in your book.

 

[BennyV]

I guess the Palmer maps are back. Yawn.

 

[Randawg72]

I still can't believe that people totally dismiss the fact that the 1795 survey map of JFI is not the template used by Wilkins for his maps. It is so 'bleedin' obvious, and JFI has a key role in this saga. I said Wilkins and 'his maps'. I have always said it. You want more proof? His postcard sketch was found amongst his papers after his death. It is a composite sketch of the three charts and marked 'Confidential' at the top. Nobody was meant to see this. Part of the legend on the bottom reads; 'Legend at base (but not as on my chart). Note 'MY CHART'. This is the proof that Wilkins had a hand in all the charts. Now let us see who is the first to say it is all rubbish! The disbelievers can see this postcard on page 242 of 'Anson's Gold'.

Hello Mr Edmunds,
I'm sorry but if you are convinced that Juan Fernández island is "obvious" and has a "key role" in the saga of the Kidd/Palmer charts or Kidd's hidden treasure then I must respectfully disagree.
Wilkins was not a treasure hunting expert. He was a plagiarist and a fraud who was best known for peddling made-up fantasy books, not for presenting facts. The sketch of an island on a postcard proves nothing.

 

[CapnGeorge]

The postcard is not a composite but a drawing of one of the maps (Coral Island). The postcard reads:

"Confidential.
The Pamela Hardy Chart of Cap. Kidd.
Yellow Parchment.
This is one of four charts identical in shape but not in detail and topography.
Legend at base (but not as on my chart)."

By "my chart" he simply meant the fictional Mar Del map he drew for his book not the so-called (four) Kidd-Palmer maps.

View attachment 2231997

There's no doubt Wilkins drew the Mar Del map and he admitted this on multiple occasions (his name even appears as copyright).

You appear to have misinterpreted the postcard. When Wilkins wrote "my chart" he cannot of meant any of the four Kidd-Palmer maps because he mentioned those on the same postcard ("This is one of four charts identical in shape"). What he was obviously referring to is the Mar Del map since the bottom legend is different than on the Coral Island map. It should be noted that the postcard is owned by Gjb which was given to him by Dave Crooks.

This is not proof whatsoever that Wilkins was involved in the hoax. You are wrong about that like most else in your book.

Like I said, who is going to be first to rubbish it!! You are 100% wrong, his postcard sketch is clearly depicts the Palmer charts. You need to change your glasses if you think it depicts the map you have shown.

 

[CapnGeorge]

Hello Mr Edmunds,
I'm sorry but if you are convinced that Juan Fernández island is "obvious" and has a "key role" in the saga of the Kidd/Palmer charts or Kidd's hidden treasure then I must respectfully disagree.
Wilkins was not a treasure hunting expert. He was a plagiarist and a fraud who was best known for peddling made-up fantasy books, not for presenting facts. The sketch of an island on a postcard proves nothing.

Just presenting the facts, up to you what you do with them.

 

[CapnGeorge]

I guess the Palmer maps are back. Yawn.

Yes, still a lack of intelligence!

 

[CapnGeorge]

Something else all of you are avoiding - without any explanation from any of you. on nearly all the maps penned by Wilkins (Yes Wilkins) the following abound; Beach of white coral and sand/Coralle Reefs/Lagoons/Coco palms, on the Palmer charts-Lagoon/reefs/sand and coral. Take the wool off your eyes and recognise he is telling you something. Where do these features show themselves, - on atolls in the South Pacific Ocean.
There is another map he penned for an American publication in 1940. The island is like a fat eel but almost banana shape. It is once again full of the style of Bartholomew Sharp, a poor disguise. From my work and research I know he is in fact depicting an atoll in the SP. The 'give away' is his drawing at the bottom of the map, of a ship blowing up. He never went there (few people did) it is very remote, so was not able to draw a proper outline, he just filled the map with features he knew about. One or two other clues; 'EyeSpanyoler' and 'In ye year 1710'. If you do not understand any of that, plus 'a ship blowing up'. clearly you have not done the research. A question arises; how did Wilkins know all about that, prior to 1940? Sorry Randawg, but JFI links are all over the place. If you all want to carry on burying your heads in the (coral) sand......

 

[Cryptid1990]

Like I said, who is going to be first to rubbish it!! You are 100% wrong, his postcard sketch is clearly depicts the Palmer charts. You need to change your glasses if you think it depicts the map you have shown.

The postcard sketch depicts one of the Kidd-Palmer maps (Coral Island). However, you completely misinterpreted the bold line:

"Confidential.
The Pamela Hardy Chart of Cap. Kidd.
Yellow Parchment.
This is one of four charts identical in shape but not in detail and topography.
Legend at base (but not as on my chart)."

What Wilkins was referring to by saying "not as on my chart" is the Mar Del map because the legend at the base of the Coral Island map is different to the Mar Del map. Note in the sketch Wilkins does not copy the bottom map legend so wrote "legend at base".

The owner of the postcard, Gjb, knows you are mistaken as well.

Check pages 162-163 of his book which contains the postcard sketch:

It is you who is 100% wrong (again). Furthermore, if you read Wilkins private correspondence with Palmer, it is clear he was not involved in the hoax. Gjb's books quote Palmer's private letters and unpublished manuscripts. I have also explained why it makes no sense to claim Wilkins was involved in the hoax because of the timeline. Wilkins had no knowledge of the Kidd-Palmer maps until Palmer wrote to him and invited him to inspect the Hardy Chest. He certainly did not draw the four maps in Palmer's possession when you reconstruct the timeline.

 

[Randawg72]

Here's a few facts:
It's logistically improbable. Juan Fernandez island is more than a 6,500 mile detour (one way) from Kidd's known travels.
There are no testimonials or other evidence that Kidd visited the Pacific Ocean or ever set foot anywhere near Juan Fernandez island.
Chile was a far off place in the 1690's akin to visiting the dark side of the moon.
The coordinates are 33.6614° S, 78.9278° W. And the North/South inclination is wrong.
The shore is far too steep and rocky to provide a sea turtle nesting site.
There are no desert areas and certainly nothing resembling a "Death valley" on the island.
Kidd was executed in 1701 so events occurring in 1710 are irrelevant.

View of San Juan Bautista. This is the area marked as having 'sand and coral'.
(And look at all those Coco palms!)

 

[CapnGeorge]

View attachment 2232208

Here's a few facts:
It's logistically improbable. Juan Fernandez island is more than a 6,500 mile detour (one way) from Kidd's known travels.
There are no testimonials or other evidence that Kidd visited the Pacific Ocean or ever set foot anywhere near Juan Fernandez island.
Chile was a far off place in the 1690's akin to visiting the dark side of the moon.
The coordinates are 33.6614° S, 78.9278° W. And the North/South inclination is wrong.
The shore is far too steep and rocky to provide a sea turtle nesting site.
There are no desert areas and certainly nothing resembling a "Death valley" on the island.
Kidd was executed in 1701 so events occurring in 1710 are irrelevant.

View attachment 2232209
View of San Juan Bautista. This is the area marked as having 'sand and coral'.
(And look at all those Coco palms!)

I totally agree. JFI was merely a stepping stone used by Wilkins

 

[CapnGeorge]

The postcard sketch depicts one of the Kidd-Palmer maps (Coral Island). However, you completely misinterpreted the bold line:

"Confidential.
The Pamela Hardy Chart of Cap. Kidd.
Yellow Parchment.
This is one of four charts identical in shape but not in detail and topography.
Legend at base (but not as on my chart)."

What Wilkins was referring to by saying "not as on my chart" is the Mar Del map because the legend at the base of the Coral Island map is different to the Mar Del map. Note in the sketch Wilkins does not copy the bottom map legend so wrote "legend at base".

The owner of the postcard, Gjb, knows you are mistaken as well.

Check pages 162-163 of his book which contains the postcard sketch:

View attachment 2232113

It is you who is 100% wrong (again). Furthermore, if you read Wilkins private correspondence with Palmer, it is clear he was not involved in the hoax. Gjb's books quote Palmer's private letters and unpublished manuscripts. I have also explained why it makes no sense to claim Wilkins was involved in the hoax because of the timeline. Wilkins had no knowledge of the Kidd-Palmer maps until Palmer wrote to him and invited him to inspect the Hardy Chest. He certainly did not draw the four maps in Palmer's possession when you reconstruct the timeline.

You are entitled to your own beliefs and thoughts however misguided. I am not very interested in correspondence true or false, it has no effect on what I deal with which is the facts and figures presented on the charts. I didn't make them up, someone did for a very real purpose. You should be looking at WHY?

 

[Cryptid1990]

You are entitled to your own beliefs and thoughts however misguided. I am not very interested in correspondence true or false, it has no effect on what I deal with which is the facts and figures presented on the charts. I didn't make them up, someone did for a very real purpose. You should be looking at WHY?

I am not particularly interested right now what is on the maps. It makes more sense to do investigative research on the provenance (record of ownership) of the maps to determine who the hoaxer was before trying to solve the clues on the maps because if you know who drew the maps, this narrows the location where the treasure was buried. This is why I know for certainty you are wrong that Wilkins was involved in the hoax based on a reconstructed timeline. Wilkins had no knowledge of the maps until 1932, when he was invited by Palmer (who wrote to him) to inspect the Hardy Chest. By then, Palmer already had multiple maps in his possession.

"Map Spurs New Hunt For Kidd Treasure" by Harold T. Wilkins [1936]

Wilkins had no knowledge of the Hardy Chest and maps in Palmer's possession prior to 1932 but according to you, he was the hoaxer. It is hard to take a word you say seriously. You have not even done basic research about who owned the maps and when Wilkins was first shown them by Palmer. Based on a letter Hubert Palmer sent to Charles Driscoll I dug up, we know that Palmer owned the Hardy Chest (including one of the maps) as earlier as ~1927. In other words, five years before Wilkins first learnt of one or more of the maps, Palmer had one in his possession. Wilkins was evidently not the hoaxer yet you continue to repeat that falsehood in this thread. I have to ask, are you intentionally doing this to mislead others? Why repeat a disproven and quite frankly nonsensical claim?

 

[CapnGeorge]

I am not particularly interested right now what is on the maps. It makes more sense to do investigative research on the provenance (record of ownership) of the maps to determine who the hoaxer was before trying to solve the clues on the maps because if you know who drew the maps, this narrows the location where the treasure was buried. This is why I know for certainty you are wrong that Wilkins was involved in the hoax based on a reconstructed timeline. Wilkins had no knowledge of the maps until 1932, when he was invited by Palmer (who wrote to him) to inspect the Hardy Chest. By then, Palmer already had multiple maps in his possession.

View attachment 2232246
"Map Spurs New Hunt For Kidd Treasure" by Harold T. Wilkins [1936]

Wilkins had no knowledge of the Hardy Chest and maps in Palmer's possession prior to 1932 but according to you, he was the hoaxer. It is hard to take a word you say seriously. You have not even done basic research about who owned the maps and when Wilkins was first shown them by Palmer. Based on a letter Hubert Palmer sent to Charles Driscoll I dug up, we know that Palmer owned the Hardy Chest (including one of the maps) as earlier as ~1927. In other words, five years before Wilkins first learnt of one or more of the maps, Palmer had one in his possession. Wilkins was evidently not the hoaxer yet you continue to repeat that falsehood in this thread. I have to ask, are you intentionally doing this to mislead others? Why repeat a disproven and quite frankly nonsensical claim?

Do you believe everything you read? So much is said to mislead and throw you off. Anthony Howlett wrote the only true account of the discovery/veracity of the charts. It took him 5 years, with Mrs Dick's blessing and access to all of Palmers work/documents. A Barrister of very high standing. It is he who I believe. Anyone challenging his work is not very clever. And anyway, why do I have to keep repeating this; I just present the facts and figures as they are. I don't make them up. I show you how they work. I am not really bothered if you don't want to be helped or guided. Carry on and bury your head in correspondence if that is your thing. I see nobody is answering a previous question; 'What was it all for?' You are all too busy trying to outdo each other with letters; look how clever I am! I've got this letter, Oh! and that correspondence. So what? It doesn't solve the charts.

 

[Cryptid1990]

Do you believe everything you read? So much is said to mislead and throw you off. Anthony Howlett wrote the only true account of the discovery/veracity of the charts. It took him 5 years, with Mrs Dick's blessing and access to all of Palmers work/documents. A Barrister of very high standing. It is he who I believe. Anyone challenging his work is not very clever. And anyway, why do I have to keep repeating this; I just present the facts and figures as they are. I don't make them up. I show you how they work. I am not really bothered if you don't want to be helped or guided. Carry on and bury your head in correspondence if that is your thing. I see nobody is answering a previous question; 'What was it all for?' You are all too busy trying to outdo each other with letters; look how clever I am! I've got this letter, Oh! and that correspondence. So what? It doesn't solve the charts.

Howlett (1958) got nearly everything wrong about the four maps including the sequence Palmer acquired them. He also got wrong what specific maps were in each of the furniture pieces (although I will not detail that here). I do not consider him remotely reliable. You uncritically copied him without doing any fact-checking, which is lazy. All of Howlett's errors appeared in your 1996 book.

Sequence (when Palmer acquired the maps) -
Howlett (1958): Oak Bureau (1929), Hardy Chest (1931), Morgan Chest (1932), Workbox (1934).
Wilkins (1935): Hardy Chest (1930), Morgan Chest (?*), Oak Bureau (1932), Workbox (1933).
Reality: Hardy Chest (1927), Morgan Chest (1931?), Oak Bureau (1932), Workbox (1933).

*Wilkins states Dan Morgan sold the so-called Morgan Chest in 1929 to Arthur Cutler but does not note the year Palmer acquired it (although this must have been pre-1932).

It was Wilkins who got closest to the truth in regard to the sequence and what specific maps came in the two chests, bureau and workbox, however, he got the year Palmer acquired the Hardy Chest wrong by a few years. We know Palmer acquired the Hardy Chest in 1927 because he wrote a letter to Charles Driscoll and Driscoll in an article mentioned the year Palmer came into possession of the Hardy Chest since he read his letter (1927 ["about three years" before Driscoll published the article in July 1930]).

- Driscoll (1930)

This is why Randawg72's bashing of Wilkins and his claim Wilkins' book is worthless is deeply irrational. Wilkins (1935) is the most accurate source in regards to when Palmer acquired the maps and what maps came in the furniture pieces. We know this based on Driscoll's article and the private letters Wilkins wrote to Palmer (and vice-versa), usefully published by Gjb. It does not surprise me that Wilkins would be proven to be far more a reliable source on the maps than Howlett since Wilkins (unlike Howlett) met Palmer in person and corresponded with him - most of what he wrote in his 1935 book is corroborated by what Palmer and Wilkins wrote to each other in their private letters.

 

[CapnGeorge]

Howlett (1958) got nearly everything wrong about the four maps including the sequence Palmer acquired them. He also got wrong what specific maps were in each of the furniture pieces (although I will not detail that here). I do not consider him remotely reliable. You uncritically copied him without doing any fact-checking, which is lazy. All of Howlett's errors appeared in your 1996 book.

Sequence (when Palmer acquired the maps) -
Howlett (1958): Oak Bureau (1929), Hardy Chest (1931), Morgan Chest (1932), Workbox (1934).
Wilkins (1935): Hardy Chest (1930), Morgan Chest (?*), Oak Bureau (1932), Workbox (1933).
Reality: Hardy Chest (1927), Morgan Chest (1931?), Oak Bureau (1932), Workbox (1933).

*Wilkins states Dan Morgan sold the so-called Morgan Chest in 1929 to Arthur Cutler but does not note the year Palmer acquired it (although this must have been pre-1932).

It was Wilkins who got closest to the truth in regard to the sequence and what specific maps came in the two chests, bureau and workbox, however, he got the year Palmer acquired the Hardy Chest wrong by a few years. We know Palmer acquired the Hardy Chest in 1927 because he wrote a letter to Charles Driscoll and Driscoll in an article mentioned the year Palmer came into possession of the Hardy Chest since he read his letter (1927 ["about three years" before Driscoll published the article in July 1930]).

View attachment 2232291
- Driscoll (1930)

This is why Randawg72's bashing of Wilkins and his claim Wilkins' book is worthless is deeply irrational. Wilkins (1935) is the most accurate source in regards to when Palmer acquired the maps and what maps came in the furniture pieces. We know this based on Driscoll's article and the private letters Wilkins wrote to Palmer (and vice-versa), usefully published by Gjb. It does not surprise me that Wilkins would be proven to be far more a reliable source on the maps than Howlett since Wilkins (unlike Howlett) met Palmer in person and corresponded with him - most of what he wrote in his 1935 book is corroborated by what Palmer and Wilkins wrote to each other in their private letters.

Your, quote; 'Wilkins (1935) is the most accurate source in regards to when Palmer acquired the maps and what maps came in the furniture pieces' You are so sadly misguided and clearly with no research. His 'Captain Kidd and his Skeleton Island' and the rubbish Bartholomew Sharp copy map within, Wilkins clearly says, underneath; 'Found hidden in a sea chest...... ..and chart, were formerly owned by Miss Pamela Hardy....... It's sad you believe this. Now, Howlet or Wilkins? no choice really.

 

[Cryptid1990]

Your, quote; 'Wilkins (1935) is the most accurate source in regards to when Palmer acquired the maps and what maps came in the furniture pieces' You are so sadly misguided and clearly with no research. His 'Captain Kidd and his Skeleton Island' and the rubbish Bartholomew Sharp copy map within, Wilkins clearly says, underneath; 'Found hidden in a sea chest...... ..and chart, were formerly owned by Miss Pamela Hardy....... It's sad you believe this. Now, Howlet or Wilkins? no choice really.

Wilkins got correct: (a) the sequence Palmer acquired the four maps, (b) what specific maps came in the chests/bureau/workbox, and (c), how he discovered the maps. For example, Palmer found a map (parchment) in the bureau in Arthur Hill-Cutler's shop (in the presence of Cutler, likely guided by him), not at his home with his brother as Howlett (1958) incorrectly stated. Wilkins was also mostly accurate about the dates Palmer came into possession of the maps (with exception of the Hardy Chest). In contrast, Howlett got all the dates wrong. Pamela Hardy never existed, she was invented by the hoaxer. All of the furniture pieces (including maps) came from Arthur Cutler's shop, and that is where Palmer bought them. Wilkins makes clear that the Hardy Chest came from Cutler's shop and even said it "owes its existence as much to Mr. Hubert Palmer as to Mr. Hill Cutler".

- Wilkins (1935)

 

[CapnGeorge]

You are missing the point, you said Wilkins was the most accurate source re the maps. He said the map in his book came from the 'Hardy' chest. So hardly accurate. Why can't you 'manup' and admit he got it wrong? Why are you trying to avoid owning up to this error on your part? Trying to create a smokescreen with all your waffle above?