The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[Bocaj]

The Metropolitan Police Laboratory
New Scotland Yard
London

9th August, 1951

The words 'China Sea' and the diagram indicating the points of the compass in red have obviously been inked in over pencil marks. In modern black lead (i.e. graphite) pencils clay is incorporated in the lead it would be a relatively simple matter to demonstrate the presence of this substance in the pencil marks on the questioned document.

So they didn't test it because they concluded the pencil marks themself prove it to be modern. I do not know if that is true?

 

[Bocaj]

I admire anyone having a go. After many years treasure hunting land and sea all over globe. I understand the hunger. .Just going there is an adventure in itself. Finding treasure is bonus.

That is basically the idea

There are no guarantees in life. Even waking up in the morning is blessing. With treasure hunting its even worse. Anything can happen for better or for worse. life is gamble. everything we do in life is calculated risk. If you expecting a big payoff you might end up disappointed. Yet if you only expect going there in spirit of adventure and then maybe finding treasure is the absolute icing on the cake.

exactly

So be very careful who you crew with. Because I can tell you in the deep ocean you can really learn about the true nature of the people around you. Another thing is when you take other people along there expectations may not align with yours. So you clear honest and realistic in what the goals are for the voyage and expedition. I have seen many a fine expedition dissolve into petty bickering, fractured egos and personal differences. Be very careful who you invite as an open invitation to hangers on can spell trouble. And everyone you take along must be reading from the same page.

I see you have been there before.
It is not the first time I go to sea with a lot of crew.

Have you done long ocean transits before? What type of sailing vessel do you have? Do you dive? And if you find treasure what next how do you convert in liquid assets? You do not need to answer me or anyone else here with those questions but only to yourself.

Frankly I do not like others to tell me what questions I have to ask myself but I am more then willing to respond if you want to know the answers.

 

[Cryptid1990]

I have access to a photographic image of one of the original so-called Kidd-Palmer maps from the National Archives. I am unsure of the copyright but will show the "China Sea" writing (ink) which was discovered to have modern pencil marks underneath.

This style of writing is very atypical on 17th/18th century maps, in fact it is completely absent. Indeed, if you simply look up maps of the (South/East) China Sea from the 17th or 18th century, none of them (I looked at hundreds) resemble the above block lettering. This was realised by the forensic expert, in 1951, I quoted who also noted: "The wide spacing of this [block lettering] appears suspicious". But he understood it was quite common on contemporary (20th century) maps. There is no doubt the writing on this map is early 20th century.

 

[Bocaj]

I have access to a photographic image of one of the original so-called Kidd-Palmer maps from the National Archives. I am unsure of the copyright but will show the "China Sea" writing (ink) which was discovered to have modern pencil marks underneath.

View attachment 2222938

This style of writing is very atypical on 17th/18th century maps, in fact it is completely absent. Indeed, if you simply look up maps of the (South/East) China Sea from the 17th or 18th century, none of them (I looked at hundreds) resemble the above block lettering. This was realised by the forensic expert, in 1951, I quoted who also noted: "The wide spacing of this [block lettering] appears suspicious". But he understood it was quite common on contemporary (20th century) maps. There is no doubt the writing on this map is early 20th century.

This is from the second Sarah W map
(Where does it even come from?)

which is obviously a copy from the first (I never assumed it to be an original as the handwriting is clearly different to all the other maps):

But even the above rises questions as it gives Sarah W as author - not Kidd - why is everyone here ignoring this?

I think there are to many assumptions made that are anything but certain.

- W.K. (Kidd?) draw those maps himself (why, who claimed this?)
* Crew, Wife or Children could have drawn the maps instructed by him or whoever else was present when at the treasure site
- W.K. is William Kidd's signature
* first it is no signature just the initials for any name/surname starting with 'W' and 'K' so maybe it has nothing to do with Kidd!
- 1669 is an error or whatever
* W.K. 1669 means some W.K. who is born in 1669! to distinguish from an infinite amount of people have the same initials
- that because Cutler lied and probably faked the graving on the furniture that he also created the maps
* if he did why has the second Sarah Kidd map a different handwriting and is not just a copy of the first?

the only place where one "W.K." is mentioned in an authentic document in connection with a treasure is the following letter:

(WK colored by my)

I know Randawg72 doesn't like me to mention it in "his" thread but from all the above (if at all) those maps are pointing to Avery's treasure not Kidd's

Who was "W.K."?

Some crew of Avery probably being around 25 when he joined his crew?

 

[Cryptid1990]

This is from the second Sarah W map
(Where does it even come from?)
View attachment 2222947

which is obviously a copy from the first (I never assumed it to be an original as the handwriting is clearly different to all the other maps):

View attachment 2222948

I think it's the other way around. The first you posted is a drawing of the original map because the letters are fading. The second is a restoration (edited to supposedly restore some faded ink) so it has been modified (albeit to reflect what the letters would have looked like before the ink was fading). The map I have a photographic copy of appears to show the original with the faded ink which is the first drawing you posted (not second, which is the later restoration).

I have highlighted the faded ink on the top "S" of "Sarah".

Someone in the 1950s tried to restore the writing on all the maps. I previously mentioned this in one of my comments.

But even the above rises questions as it gives Sarah W as author - not Kidd - why is everyone here ignoring this?

I think there are to many assumptions made that are anything but certain.

- W.K. (Kidd?) draw those maps himself (why, who claimed this?)
* Crew, Wife or Children could have drawn the maps instructed by him or whoever else was present when at the treasure site
- W.K. is William Kidd's signature
* first it is no signature just the initials for any name/surname starting with 'W' and 'K' so maybe it has nothing to do with Kidd!
- 1669 is an error or whatever
* W.K. 1669 means some W.K. who is born in 1669! to distinguish from an infinite amount of people have the same initials
- that because Cutler lied and probably faked the graving on the furniture that he also created the maps
* if he did why has the second Sarah Kidd map a different handwriting and is not just a copy of the first?

the only place where one "W.K." is mentioned in an authentic document in connection with a treasure is the following letter:
View attachment 2222950
(WK colored by my)

I know Randawg72 doesn't like me to mention it in "his" thread but from all the above (if at all) those maps are pointing to Avery's treasure not Kidd's

Who was "W.K."?

Some crew of Avery probably being around 25 when he joined his crew?

The so-called Kidd-Palmer maps have nothing to do with Avery's treasure. That idea is as irrational as them relating to Captain Kidd's treasure. Sorry, but it is hard to take your thoughts on this serious and you are very wide off the mark like Randawg72. The maps are a hoax but what remains unsettled is the question whether (1) the maps are an early 20th century hoax and no treasure exists, or (2) the maps are an early 20th century hoax but the hoaxer buried a treasure (providing clues on the maps). However, if the latter, we are talking about someone (= Arthur Cutler?) burying a treasure around 100 years ago, not a pirate in the 17th or 18th century.

George Edmunds (2016) argues the maps are a hoax but the hoaxer provided clues to a treasure he did not bury and was himself searching for and knew the location. That makes no sense. Why didn't the hoaxer simply dig up the treasure? Secondly, why would the treasure hunter give away clues for others to find the treasure, he was searching for himself? Gjb's views are almost as incoherent. It only makes sense if the hoaxer buried the treasure. I do have fairly reliable evidence for this and will publish it in the future.

 

[Bocaj]

I think it's the other way around. The first you posted is a drawing of the original map because the letters are fading. The second is a restoration (edited to supposedly restore some faded ink) so it has been modified (albeit to reflect what the letters would have looked like before the ink was fading). The map I have a photographic copy of appears to show the original with the faded ink which is the first drawing you posted (not second, which is the later restoration).

View attachment 2222966
I have highlighted the faded ink on the top "S" of "Sarah".

View attachment 2222967

Someone in the 1950s tried to restore the writing on all the maps. I previously mentioned this in one of my comments.


The so-called Kidd-Palmer maps have nothing to do with Avery's treasure. That idea is as irrational as them relating to Captain Kidd's treasure. Sorry, but it is hard to take your thoughts on this serious and you are very wide off the mark like Randawg72. The maps are a hoax but what remains unsettled is the question whether (1) the maps are an early 20th century hoax and no treasure exists, or (2) the maps are an early 20th century hoax but the hoaxer buried a treasure (providing clues on the maps). However, if the latter, we are talking about someone (= Arthur Cutler?) burying a treasure around 100 years ago, not a pirate in the 17th or 18th century.

George Edmunds (2016) argues the maps are a hoax but the hoaxer provided clues to a treasure he did not bury and was himself searching for. That makes no sense. Why didn't the hoaxer simply dig up the treasure? Secondly, why would the treasure hunter give away clues for others to find the treasure, he was searching for himself? Gjb's views are almost as incoherent. It only makes sense if the hoaxer buried the treasure. I do have fairly reliable evidence for this and will publish it in the future.

This is not any kind of restoration. The handwriting is clearly different. If at all then it is a handwritten copy!

In any case where do you think those two come from? The second is clearly the same handwriting as the rest of those maps.

Also I never said those maps are authentic - "if at all" I wrote. It could be that everyone associated those maps with Kidd because of those initials. I don't pretend to know where those maps are from - I just try to make the point of those maps and the Avery letters having some connection that is all. Maybe the maps are created after the letter became public. Maybe they are copies of copies from some original map. It is impossible to dismiss the possibility.

In any case Sarah 1 and Sarah 2 are not created by the same person. maybe Cutler created one but where came the other one from?

 

[Cryptid1990]

For those interested, you can read various letters by Gilbert Hedden and Harold T. Wilkins concerning the maps.

Palmer's charts - Oak Island, Nova Scotia

D'Arcy O'Connor Oak Island Money Pit research materials organized by folder and sub-folder.

www.oakislandmystery.com

Harold Wilkins (map) - Oak Island, Nova Scotia

D'Arcy O'Connor Oak Island Money Pit research materials organized by folder and sub-folder.

www.oakislandmystery.com

 

[Randawg72]

Or, we do the popcorn 🍿 arm chair thing and settle into personal attacks and opinion based arguing ?? Not sure how many more pages this can go ? Always happens once all the evidence is presented in these legends. To prove the legends one must get on site in the bush and find the evidence, track the clues, and do some searching....so let's here where each opinion based hunter would start first ?? Pretend like you guys have million dollar budgets and a killer expedition type boat, and all the time in the world to do this....which island and where do you start on the island, and what are you looking for in the way of marks, clues, evidence etc. How do you explore each site, and is it even possible. My method is to see in person, and explore as much and as often as possible. How would you experts approach 🤔 an expedition. Go check your awsome maps boys !!

Hi Blak bart,
I apologize that this thread has become a forum for ridicule rather than a place to discuss the topic of Kidd's treasure intelligently. I do have an island targeted and I do plan an expedition there. I'm very much aware that even if I'm on the right trail, the odds of success are slim.
I not only believe that I have discovered the correct island, but I have matched some of the geographic landmarks that pinpoint several key locations in which to search.
While I have the means to visit the island, my health and stamina are not what they used to be. I need to sort out the logistics, like arranging transportation, and purchasing a drone. And I want to invest in a new handheld GPS device.
I also need to renew my Visa and get all the vaccinations required before scheduling such a trip.

 

[Cryptid1990]

Hi Blak bart,
I apologize that this thread has become a forum for ridicule rather than a place to discuss the topic of Kidd's treasure intelligently. I do have an island targeted and I do plan an expedition there. I'm very much aware that even if I'm on the right trail, the odds of success are slim.
I not only believe that I have discovered the correct island, but I have matched some of the geographic landmarks that pinpoint several key locations in which to search.
While I have the means to visit the island, my health and stamina are not what they used to be. I need to sort out the logistics, like arranging transportation, and purchasing a drone. And I want to invest in a new handheld GPS device.
I also need to renew my Visa and get all the vaccinations required before scheduling such a trip.

Cherry-picking some landmarks (while ignoring others on the maps that do not fit you preconceived location) is intelligent? Derp. As I earlier said, this is why there are dozens of different island hypotheses of the so-called Kidd-Palmer maps:

I am dismissive of individuals who cherry-pick a few topographical details on the Kidd-Palmer maps to match a real island (ignoring profound differences) and/or who find a similar shaped real island in situ or by rotation of the island depicted on the Kidd-Palmer maps; by this method you can arbitrarily identify the island on the Kidd-Palmer maps with dozens of real islands across the world. It is no surprise having read numerous books on buried treasure, following discussions on treasure hunting message boards (including this one), and several other websites I have so far come across at least 36 (!) different island identifications by cranks and amateur researchers (a few I already mentioned including Hon Tre Lon, Koh Matlang and the Providenciales). The French writer I mentioned in my previous post for example, used Google Maps to find an island near Thailand that looks similar to the island on the Coral Island Map, if rotated. In contrast, yet another amateur researcher, Howard Frey identified a different island (photo credit: Howard Frey).

You are not adding anything remotely useful to the research on these maps. We do not need arbitrary island identification #37.

 

[Bocaj]

Cherry-picking some landmarks (while ignoring others on the maps that do not fit you preconceived location) is intelligent? Derp. As I earlier said, this is why there are dozens of different island hypotheses of the so-called Kidd-Palmer maps:

I agree that there needs to be a fitting of those elements on the maps. Not everything will be exactly as drawn as its a sketch and most likely from memory but in general everything should be explained. Some features may not be visible from sat maps but most should be there or otherwise its a waste of time and money like many before.

You are not adding anything remotely useful to the research on these maps. We do not need arbitrary island identification #37.

Let him try, there is no harm here. So its #37 and what? As I remember you have your own spot and it isn't even an island!

 

[Cryptid1990]

You are not adding anything remotely useful to the research on these maps. We do not need arbitrary island identification #37.

Worthwhile lines of investigation on the so-called Kidd-Palmer maps, rather than pointlessly launching a goofy "expedition":

1. Hubert Palmer penned a letter about the Hardy Chest (with one of the maps) to Charles Benedict Driscoll. This letter was mentioned by Driscoll (1930) in an article I dug up. The Charles Benedict Driscoll papers in the Kenneth Spencer Research Library Archival Collections at the the University of Kansas probably contains the letter since this archive stores handwritten letters sent to Driscoll from many individuals during the relevant period (1927-1935) of Palmer's correspondence with Driscoll.
2. The Kidd-Palmer maps were likely not sold to Maurice Taylor (as part of a Canadian-US syndicate) and possibly remain in England. Even if Mr. Taylor did purchase the maps from Elizabeth Dick and put them in a bank vault in Canada, he did not acquire from her the Yunnan Parchment (his letter to Rupert Furneaux only mentions "charts" i.e., the maps). Dick's nephew in the 1960s was searching for the maps and did not believe they were sold to Taylor; his name is mentioned in newspaper reports I posted. It would be useful if someone contacted him if he is still alive or his family to ask about the maps and if they can provide any information.
3. Arthur Hill-Cutler who sold Palmer the furniture pieces (the maps were found in) as well as the Yunnan Parchment was involved in selling many other pirate/maritime history/Lord Nelson items with the fabricated Pamela Hardy provenance. Some of these items ended up in the archive collection at the National Maritime Museum. A few, come with handwritten letters by Cutler.
4. The National Archives has the following file bundle (publicly accessible since 2004): Attempts to raise money to finance expeditions to search for Captain Kidd's Treasure in the China Seas. I now personally have access to this bundle.
5. The National Archives has the following file bundles (publicly accessible since last year): Richard Charles Knight: detention in Vietnam for violation of Vietnamese borders in search for Captain Kidd's treasure. I believe there may be some useful information on the maps in those bundles only recently made public. I have not yet checked them but will do so soon.

These maps will be solved doing proper research in museums and archives, not pretending to be Indiana Jones like Randawg72.

 

[Bocaj]

Worthwhile lines of investigation on the so-called Kidd-Palmer maps, rather than pointlessly launching a goofy "expedition":


These maps will be solved doing proper research in museums and archives, not pretending to be Indiana Jones like Randawg72.

Why not combining our efforts here instead of fighting each other? For I am sure of that it needs more than a single person to solve that riddle.

I would think we have some good people here each with their strength and weaknesses. None of them will succeed on their own!

Sitting in an ivory tower researching endlessly the facts is as much fruitless as jumping in the next plane to some lookalike island. I presented a different path. A combined approach of cooperation and a slow journey that gives us time to study on the way...

 

[Blak bart]

Hi Blak bart,
I apologize that this thread has become a forum for ridicule rather than a place to discuss the topic of Kidd's treasure intelligently. I do have an island targeted and I do plan an expedition there. I'm very much aware that even if I'm on the right trail, the odds of success are slim.
I not only believe that I have discovered the correct island, but I have matched some of the geographic landmarks that pinpoint several key locations in which to search.
While I have the means to visit the island, my health and stamina are not what they used to be. I need to sort out the logistics, like arranging transportation, and purchasing a drone. And I want to invest in a new handheld GPS device.
I also need to renew my Visa and get all the vaccinations required before scheduling such a trip.

No need for apology....This sounds great 👍 its obvious that time has been spent in research....at some point the boots are needed on the ground....what an incredible adventure....win, lose, or draw...the memories and saying you did it would be a win....treasure would be icing on a very sweet cake. Wishing you luck !!

 

[Blak bart]

Why not combining our efforts here instead of fighting each other? For I am sure of that it needs more than a single person to solve that riddle.

I would think we have some good people here each with their strength and weaknesses. None of them will succeed on their own!

Sitting in an ivory tower researching endlessly the facts is as much fruitless as jumping in the next plane to some lookalike island. I presented a different path. A combined approach of cooperation and a slow journey that gives us time to study on the way...

 

[Blak bart]

🧐👌🫡 thats what it takes

 

[Randawg72]

No need for apology....This sounds great 👍 its obvious that time has been spent in research....at some point the boots are needed on the ground....what an incredible adventure....win, lose, or draw...the memories and saying you did it would be a win....treasure would be icing on a very sweet cake. Wishing you luck !!

Thank you B bart. Maybe the saying is true: "the glory lies not in the quarry, but in the chase." It's a shame that the internet provides a stage for trolls to belittle the progress of actual researchers. If they had the skills to formulate their own ideas they might not appear to be so lost.

 

[Cryptid1990]

Thank you B bart. Maybe the saying is true: "the glory lies not in the quarry, but in the chase." It's a shame that the internet provides a stage for trolls to belittle the progress of actual researchers. If they had the skills to formulate their own ideas they might not appear to be so lost.

I've not seen you present an original idea in this thread. Your belief the maps are authentic and drawn by Captain Kidd:

Post #1

I believe the treasure exists, and that the "Kidd/Palmer" charts are authentic.

Post #3

I only believe the Kidd/Palmer charts were drawn by Kidd.

Was believed by Harold T. Wilkins (1935), Anthony Howlett (1958), George Edmunds (1996), and so on, before you. Do not flatter yourself.

Concerning your dubious claim (above) to have discovered the island on the so-called Kidd-Palmer maps:

I not only believe that I have discovered the correct island, but I have matched some of the geographic landmarks that pinpoint several key locations in which to search.

It is possible, if not probable, the unnamed island you have identified was already suggested by someone else. I have a list of 36 islands.

 

[Cryptid1990]

Why not combining our efforts here instead of fighting each other?

38 pages and still not a shred of evidence presented by Randawg72 the maps are authentic and drawn by Kidd. 🥱 There's no evidence because the maps are a hoax. It is not possible to collaborate with someone who does not accept this reality. It would be like asking a creationist to work with someone who accepts the theory of evolution or a Moon landing conspiracy theorist to work with an astronaut.

 

[Bocaj]

38 pages and still not a shred of evidence presented by Randawg72 the maps are authentic and drawn by Kidd. 🥱 There's no evidence because the maps are a hoax.

Neither of you has evidence (in the strict sense of the word. I respect you believes but they are just that.

The maps are not available to test them we have no verified photos of the originals neither (you have of one only that has a different handwriting and could very well a 19/20th century copy)

Not authentic doesn't mean hoax neither (and they are plenty of facts to doubt their authenticity)

It is not possible to collaborate with someone who does not accept this reality. It would be like asking a creationist to work with someone who accepts the theory of evolution or a Moon landing conspiracy theorist to work with an astronaut.

Why not? We all disagree on some things in live but still somehow work together on something we do agree. Solving the maps riddle is very interesting and on that I think we all agree.

For the answer we better keep an open mind. Everyone should understand that until either we have some documents that prove those maps are total fantasy or someone finds to whatever location they point we could all be wrong.

Any way I think to mount an expedition to research the 17/18th century 'Pirate Rounders' is no waste of time or money even we don't find a single piece of eight. I can live with different ideas - as long anyone on board respect the hierarchy on the ship I am happy to welcome creationists and evolutionists to hoist the sails!

 

[Bocaj]

Continuing this from the https://www.treasurenet.com/threads...kidd-palmer-treasure-maps.712534/post-7363409 off-topic post:

Two little items just for starters: 1/ The rubbish Wilkins chart on the inside covers of his book CKSI, find 'Lat. dmd.' Nobody knew what that was until my decoding of the Shepherds Monument cipher, second line D---M, or Lat 19. - latitude of the Trinity group of atolls.(coded longitude 138 is in the first line) and 2/ The KEY chart, so back to the beginning, LAT 9.16, LONG 31.30. A simple key, put '1' in front giving Lat 19.16, Long 131.30, add the Cadiz meridian of 6.30 (a Spanish treasure, only Wilkins knew this) and you get 138. So there we have it again;19 and 138, the coordinates of the Pinaki group of atolls. A lot of other decodings give the same answer. Now, could you please explain to me and all our other listeners why this is all rubbish and you know the answer? Perhaps in the meantime, you would like to get somebody to review this!!

'Lat. dmd.' is a common term on charts which means that the Latitude (and Longitude) is encoded as "degree, minute, decimal" - there are other form of encodings like 'dms.' see: https://www.maptools.com/tutorials/lat_lon/formats

I am supprised of you claiming:

Nobody knew what that was

this is a standard term on older charts and Wilkins just copied it without the actual coordinates of the island he took as sample. Same thing with 'Mar del' which could have been "Mar del Sur" etc. in his sample chart.

no secret here - unless you want to make things more complicated as they are already

Btw.
> you have to subtract not add the six degrees if you take Cadiz as reference!