The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.
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BennyV
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I think people in general buried “treasure” during times of chaos or for safekeeping from others. Look at all these hordes found throughout Europe of ancient coins.
I find it amusing when people speak in absolutes, ie “A pirate has never buried treasure, ever”. I find folks who speak in absolutes have absolutely no idea what they’re talking about or little actual experience besides regurgitating what they read from someone else who also speaks in absolutes.
The fact is no one knows what’s out there and who buried it. So regardless of what anyone has to say on here, the advice & opinions are worth what you paid for it, absolutely nothing.
Crow
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Okay, here is an update on the 1700 Avery document.
I found the reference in the Archives of Scotland; you can ask for a copy of the original
She appears in the following background: "Papers of the Hamilton-Bruce family of Grange Hill and Falkland"
The copy was made on paper made in 1806, as indicated by the watermark embedded in it. So the copy is not earlier than 1806.
This document, as you can see, is not the original document but a copy. It is not 18th century. I stand corrected in my speculation. The document was in the Papers of the Hamilton-Bruce family of Grange Hill and Falkland
Source Country code : GB
Repository code : 234
Organization : NAS
Repository: National Records of Scotland
Reference : GD152/160
Copy memorandum on ‘Avery the Pirate’ and copy letter (27 Dec 1700) by him in cipher addressed to ‘Rev James Richardson at the library
over : against Orenge Street, St Martin’s-in-the-Fields, London’, with note : annexed of treasure-filled chests
Dates: [c1806]
Access status : Open
Level : Item
So, conclusion: the 1700 document, post-1806 document which states it's a copy of an earlier dated 1700 letter
addressed to ‘Rev James Richardson at the library over: against Orange Street, St Martin’s-in-the-Fields, London, It could be, but we cannot prove it beyond doubt.
So it is not indisputable evidence of what was said in 1700 because it's a copy of an alleged earlier correspondence over 100 years later.
So, to fully clarify, to prove or disprove the items of buried and alleged treasure attributed to Avery, we must find the original documents in the State Papers Online database.
February 22 Letter: Reference Code: SP 44/100/541 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 100, Page 541).
February 7 Letter: Reference Code: SP 44/100/541 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 100, Page 541).
May 27 letter: Reference code. Sp 44/101/163 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 101, Page 163).
Unfortunately, I am at sea. Riding out heavy weather, and it's not high up on my list of priorities
Crow
I found the reference in the Archives of Scotland; you can ask for a copy of the original
She appears in the following background: "Papers of the Hamilton-Bruce family of Grange Hill and Falkland"
The copy was made on paper made in 1806, as indicated by the watermark embedded in it. So the copy is not earlier than 1806.
This document, as you can see, is not the original document but a copy. It is not 18th century. I stand corrected in my speculation. The document was in the Papers of the Hamilton-Bruce family of Grange Hill and Falkland
Source Country code : GB
Repository code : 234
Organization : NAS
Repository: National Records of Scotland
Reference : GD152/160
Copy memorandum on ‘Avery the Pirate’ and copy letter (27 Dec 1700) by him in cipher addressed to ‘Rev James Richardson at the library
over : against Orenge Street, St Martin’s-in-the-Fields, London’, with note : annexed of treasure-filled chests
Dates: [c1806]
Access status : Open
Level : Item
So, conclusion: the 1700 document, post-1806 document which states it's a copy of an earlier dated 1700 letter
addressed to ‘Rev James Richardson at the library over: against Orange Street, St Martin’s-in-the-Fields, London, It could be, but we cannot prove it beyond doubt.
So it is not indisputable evidence of what was said in 1700 because it's a copy of an alleged earlier correspondence over 100 years later.
So, to fully clarify, to prove or disprove the items of buried and alleged treasure attributed to Avery, we must find the original documents in the State Papers Online database.
February 22 Letter: Reference Code: SP 44/100/541 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 100, Page 541).
February 7 Letter: Reference Code: SP 44/100/541 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 100, Page 541).
May 27 letter: Reference code. Sp 44/101/163 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 101, Page 163).
Unfortunately, I am at sea. Riding out heavy weather, and it's not high up on my list of priorities
Crow
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William Kidd
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I think that after 54 pages of documents in this forum (which I believe is the most serious and detailed in the world on the subject), having not come to a conclusion, we could at least join forces to change research strategy using methods that no one has used so far, such as satellite, AI, or tools that did not exist decades ago. I propose to proceed meticulously by logic using the satellite, to identify all the islands that can have the characteristics of the details that we can define as certain.
We should take at face value the 4 authenticated maps of the trunk of national geographic and all the certain elements on the one hand, and on the other compare them with the islands that have at least one lagoon, and we already discard 999 out of a thousand. We can take the hills in this way so take them for good, the reef as well, the sand and the corals too. Proceeding in this way, we should also take the "China Sea" at face value, and therefore exclude the Caribbean a priori, and direct the research on the satellite in that area, which however seems to lack Islands with Lagoons... In this way, by proposing suitable islands on the one hand and discarding those that do not have the necessary elements, we will arrive at the right island in a few days. I think I understand that by studying the documents, there is no clear and precise information..
P.S. I found and recover the damage files of my treasure hunt in Venezuela and add to old video... In this you can See how the Island it was perfectly esplanade by hand...
We should take at face value the 4 authenticated maps of the trunk of national geographic and all the certain elements on the one hand, and on the other compare them with the islands that have at least one lagoon, and we already discard 999 out of a thousand. We can take the hills in this way so take them for good, the reef as well, the sand and the corals too. Proceeding in this way, we should also take the "China Sea" at face value, and therefore exclude the Caribbean a priori, and direct the research on the satellite in that area, which however seems to lack Islands with Lagoons... In this way, by proposing suitable islands on the one hand and discarding those that do not have the necessary elements, we will arrive at the right island in a few days. I think I understand that by studying the documents, there is no clear and precise information..
P.S. I found and recover the damage files of my treasure hunt in Venezuela and add to old video... In this you can See how the Island it was perfectly esplanade by hand...
Bocaj
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I think you stand too much on the side of fiction but literature is webbed with the two main threads: facts and imagination. Especially Irving but also Poe base their ideas on tales and other sources that have mythical and verifiable history as their bases. So it is no prove of "romantic imagination" but rather the contrary. Means if 100 years after the fact literature is written about pirates and their treasure it is because it is sourced from the tales told in the taverns and other places. This is the quite normal way how history becomes myth.
Question is really what is the truth behind the myth? Those documents is all we have as something more authentic. To dismiss them as fast as you do is a grave error I think.
William Kidd
Greenie
It is not my intention to liquidate these documents. They will be very useful once the islands that correspond to the basic and verified elements of the authenticated maps have been identified. The documents can for example discard Pacific islands off its route, etc... Proceeding in this way, in 4//5 people we can propose islands on which to discuss which ones have the most connections, and they are sure that we will get to the bottom of it. For my part, I think that Isla Fernando is the one with the most connections. Turning on maps one by one you can all shoot in a couple of evenings, but maybe I missed a better one...
Regarding romantic stories about pirates, I agree with you when you say that there is a lot of fiction, but by proceeding in this way and collaborating I think the research to be carried out to reach the truth between invention and reality is faster and more streamlined. As we know at least in Italy, "In every legend there is a kernel of truth". The fact that there are thousands of stories about pirate treasure stories does not exclude a priori that they really exist! If he were still buried under the island Fernando, where would you dig? I'm curious to know if anyone has delved into this aspect of the research... You would dig where the X in one of the 4 maps, or follow the directions from the arrow in "MAR DEL" map, counting the feet?
Regarding romantic stories about pirates, I agree with you when you say that there is a lot of fiction, but by proceeding in this way and collaborating I think the research to be carried out to reach the truth between invention and reality is faster and more streamlined. As we know at least in Italy, "In every legend there is a kernel of truth". The fact that there are thousands of stories about pirate treasure stories does not exclude a priori that they really exist! If he were still buried under the island Fernando, where would you dig? I'm curious to know if anyone has delved into this aspect of the research... You would dig where the X in one of the 4 maps, or follow the directions from the arrow in "MAR DEL" map, counting the feet?
There is no mention on the second or third page of treasure being buried or hidden. Rather, the third page ("Notes annexed to the Letter”) is an inventory of three chests. The word "lodging" on the second page does not refer to these chests but the arrangement of a discreet place to stay for a night or two, where the writer of the document and another person could meet and discuss:
The third page describes a chest approximately two feet long and one foot square. It contains a mixture of objects, including buckles, sapphires, emeralds, diamonds and other jewels. The writer says their value is unknown. A second chest is described as follows: "The same chest, almost the same size and made of …”. A third chest is described as containing gold and 25 bars of a material (silver?). The last paragraph mentions approximately 8,000 pieces of something ("b"?), perhaps beads or bullion.
I do not think it matters since the document does not state that the chests were buried or hidden. The fact remains that there is no 18th century literary source that states Avery (or his crew) buried or concealed treasure anywhere and this absence of evidence supports exactly what I have been saying, the same for Kidd. If history says "no", why is the fictional literary trope of pirates burying treasure (that traces back to the 19th century) so deeply embedded in so many people's brains today? Well, the massive number of 20th-21st-century media—movies, video games, television shows, and board games—has acted as an exponential amplifier for illusory truth effect. Many people mistakenly today believe that pirates buried treasure or made treasure maps because they are constantly seeing this: toys, books, movies, Halloween costumes, cartoons, and pirate-themed amusement park rides have relentlessly repeated the "pirate buried treasure" and "pirate treasure map" fictional tropes. In other words, the fictional literary tropes of pirates burying treasure and pirate treasure maps ("X marks the spot") have been cemented in Hollywood cinema and global pop culture to the extent many people incorrectly believe they have a historical basis.
The illusory truth effect is a phenomenon where people are more likely to believe something is true simply because they have been exposed to it multiple times, especially by generational repetition. The illusory truth effect relies on repetition. When someone has encountered pirate buried treasure and treasure maps ("X marks the spot") in countless hours of media—from Saturday morning cartoons to video games (e.g., Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag, Sea of Thieves) and movies (e.g., The Goonies, Cutthroat Island, Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest) —the idea becomes hyper-accessible in their memory. When asked in real life whether pirates buried treasure or made treasure maps, the mind instantly recalls these memories, mistaking their availability for historical fact. Even if someone realises (like I do) that pirates did not actually bury or hide treasure or make treasure maps, the sheer volume of pop-culture reinforcement causes many people to continue to believe otherwise. That is what I have been arguing against in this thread. Additionally, there is the problem that many people have an emotional motivation for clinging to the erroneous belief that pirates buried treasure. This is because of wishful thinking, romantic escape.
Aside from the total absence of historical and archaeological evidence that pirates like Avery/Kidd buried or hid treasure (which does infer evidence of absence, especially since treasure hunters have been looking for centuries but never found anything), there is the fact that pirates would have had no reason to bury or hide treasure in the first place:
- Pirate 'careers' were often short, dangerous and unpredictable. Many pirates were captured, killed, shipwrecked or forced to abandon their activities within a few years; an average career of two or three years is often cited in scholarly literature. A pirate could not safely assume that he would survive long enough to return to a hiding place. Burying or hiding valuable goods would therefore mean surrendering immediate access to wealth in exchange for an uncertain future opportunity to recover it.
- The incentive of pirates was generally to quickly distribute, sell, exchange or spend plunder, rather than preserve or hide it. Most pirates favored instant gratification. Their goal was to spend their money on rum, food, gambling, and entertainment.
- Burying or hiding treasure would have introduced unnecessary risks and logistical difficulties.
- The composition of actual pirate plunder makes the fictional pirate tropes misleading and distorts the economic reality of maritime plunder. Captured ships frequently carried commodities and merchandise rather than chests of gold coins and jewels. Cargoes usually included textiles, sugar, tobacco, spices, provisions and other goods intended for trade. Such items were sold or exchanged rather than buried or concealed, and many would deteriorate if left underground nor would it be practical to bury them.
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Bocaj
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Those above points are more or less the arguments I gave against the assumption that pirates would bury treasure in general. All what you say is right but it doesn't exclude that under exceptional circumstances this rule can't be broken. The amount Avery plundered in the Indies was massive and so was the "first international manhunt" to catch him. This was no ordinary heist but an global incident that endangered the British empire. In unusual situations rare things happen.
I also don't think he buried anything but hid the part of the treasure that was set aside to bribe the crown. He would have left it under guard. Something may have happened that didn't left them with no choice but to bury it. It is possible and those documents state the amount of treasure (hidden or buried whatever). I see many reasons to dismiss the Palmer maps as a hoax but those letters need investigation.
Just dismissing the "Avery the pirate" letters by the generalizing idea that "pirates will never bury treasure" is strange from someone who has done such deep research into something as questionable as the Palmer maps.
Crow
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I understand you have zero people skills. You have posted a very weak, rambling response, which is demeaning to yourself. And somewhat insulting. No one cares about the illusory truth effect with fictional books, movies, or games. I am not influenced by them. In fact, I care about facts and dates. And apparently people were searching for pirates' treasure in the 18th century connected to Avery, at least via his crew. And you cannot accept it as it is. Sure, I understand you want to see original documents.
I get that, but why have you not hunted down these references? So, to fully clarify, to prove or disprove the items of buried and alleged treasure attributed to Avery, we must find the original documents in the State Papers Online database.
February 22 Letter: Reference Code: SP 44/100/541 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 100, Page 541).
February 7 Letter: Reference Code: SP 44/100/541 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 100, Page 541).
May 27 letter: Reference code. Sp 44/101/163 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 101, Page 163).
The claim still remains that in the 18th century, there was a belief, at the very least, that treasure was buried or hidden, is it not? So your theory that pirates buried treasure is all a 19th-century fictional creation. You have made every excuse possible to dismiss them without even looking them up because it might contradict your claims. Yet you blatantly ignore what does not fit your own cognitive bias. The very thing you lecture others over. You secretly know this, and this is why you resorted to such an insulting answer.
How about you actually look up these letters? Before procastinating and talking down to people.
Crow
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Crow
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Cyrptid As for the claim that pirates never buried treasure? That's a fictional literary trope of pirates burying treasure (that traces back to the 19th century?
Privateer John Oxenham sailed with Sir Francis Drake, raided Spanish ships for gold and silver and was the first Englishman to build a boat in the Americas and to sail the Pacific - before meeting his end in the hangman’s noose. Now, his extraordinary tale, told in a contemporary manuscript of that era which records events from 1578-83, below, please look at the date of the document. September 1578
He first sailed to America under Sir Francis Drake in 1572, and from 1576 to 1578 led a bold expedition to Spanish-held Panama. With support from the local Cimarron runaway slave community, he and his 57 men wintered at Panama, built a ship on the Pacific coast, and in the spring launched a surprise attack on Spanish ships loaded with Peruvian gold and silver. They were eventually pursued upriver and were able to bury some of their treasure.
Fleeing to the interior, Oxenham and a few of his men evaded capture for several months but were eventually caught in Venezuela in 1578, still in possession of 5,000 pesos in gold.
Agustín de Haro, the accountant of the royal treasury in Panama, was entrusted with the money, but faced demands from some of those who had helped defeat and capture the pirates for a share of the plunder. However, the captured pirates were in the custody of the Holy Office of the Inquisition. As they were not Catholics, the Inquisition charged them with heresy and apostasy, and thus they and their property fell under its jurisdiction.
Despite this, de Haro refused to hand over the gold, claiming he was under strict orders to not deliver it to anyone until he received orders from the highest authorities to do so. He was eventually jailed for his intransigence.
The stand-off continued because official orders regarding the treasure were postponed due to the absence of the comisario of Panama City, Juan Constantino, on missionary work. De Haro would die in jail (possibly of suicide) before the comisario could return to resolve the issue.
The manuscript records how Baltasar de Melo, the tribunal official who collected money and received evidence, complained about the comisario's persistent absenteeism, and how it indefinitely postponed the resolution of crucial issues surrounding the capture of the pirates.
This included what should be done with the pirates themselves, who languished in their cells.
Their previous ventures with Francis Drake had already made them notorious amongst the Spanish and eventually orders came through to move Oxenham and the more prominent pirates to Lima, where they were publicly executed in 1580.
With both de Haro and the pirates dead, further attempts to find the missing gold and silver faltered. There was no trace of it at de Haro’s home. It later transpired that the real reason he had refused to hand it over was that he had lent it to several people as far away as Cuzco.
Juan de Saracho, another receptor of the Inquisition, petitioned the tribunal to authorize him to side-step the comisario’s absence and collect every last peso of gold and silver from those Haro had lent to. He also asked for the authority to threaten anyone who refused to cooperate with excommunication. The Inquisition approved Saracho’s petition and he and de Melo chased the loans, demanding immediate repayment.
While they were able to retrieve much of the money this way, their strong-arm tactics met with resistance. Included in the manuscript is a 1583 petition by the family members and descendants of the late Gabriel de Loarte, a leading official whom Saracho and de Melo had targeted, complaining of harassment. They argued that their father had received the loans from de Haro, not them. The last document is a ledger from 1583 showing the enormous amount recouped and the remaining amount, which, for all that is known, may have never been accounted for.
“The Oxenham expedition was a true pirate story. Yet academics will spout that he was a privateer and not a pirate? Well, tell that to the Spanish; he was a pirate.
So are you still convinced that, in your words, all pirate-buried stories are just an invented fictional literary trope of pirates burying treasure that traces back to the 19th century?
The fact remains that many buried treasure stories are just stories and, of course, became more popular in 19th-century fiction, but to outright classify all stories as fiction without researching each story on a case-by-case basis is just confirmational bias.
Crow
Privateer John Oxenham sailed with Sir Francis Drake, raided Spanish ships for gold and silver and was the first Englishman to build a boat in the Americas and to sail the Pacific - before meeting his end in the hangman’s noose. Now, his extraordinary tale, told in a contemporary manuscript of that era which records events from 1578-83, below, please look at the date of the document. September 1578
He first sailed to America under Sir Francis Drake in 1572, and from 1576 to 1578 led a bold expedition to Spanish-held Panama. With support from the local Cimarron runaway slave community, he and his 57 men wintered at Panama, built a ship on the Pacific coast, and in the spring launched a surprise attack on Spanish ships loaded with Peruvian gold and silver. They were eventually pursued upriver and were able to bury some of their treasure.
Fleeing to the interior, Oxenham and a few of his men evaded capture for several months but were eventually caught in Venezuela in 1578, still in possession of 5,000 pesos in gold.
Agustín de Haro, the accountant of the royal treasury in Panama, was entrusted with the money, but faced demands from some of those who had helped defeat and capture the pirates for a share of the plunder. However, the captured pirates were in the custody of the Holy Office of the Inquisition. As they were not Catholics, the Inquisition charged them with heresy and apostasy, and thus they and their property fell under its jurisdiction.
Despite this, de Haro refused to hand over the gold, claiming he was under strict orders to not deliver it to anyone until he received orders from the highest authorities to do so. He was eventually jailed for his intransigence.
The stand-off continued because official orders regarding the treasure were postponed due to the absence of the comisario of Panama City, Juan Constantino, on missionary work. De Haro would die in jail (possibly of suicide) before the comisario could return to resolve the issue.
The manuscript records how Baltasar de Melo, the tribunal official who collected money and received evidence, complained about the comisario's persistent absenteeism, and how it indefinitely postponed the resolution of crucial issues surrounding the capture of the pirates.
This included what should be done with the pirates themselves, who languished in their cells.
Their previous ventures with Francis Drake had already made them notorious amongst the Spanish and eventually orders came through to move Oxenham and the more prominent pirates to Lima, where they were publicly executed in 1580.
With both de Haro and the pirates dead, further attempts to find the missing gold and silver faltered. There was no trace of it at de Haro’s home. It later transpired that the real reason he had refused to hand it over was that he had lent it to several people as far away as Cuzco.
Juan de Saracho, another receptor of the Inquisition, petitioned the tribunal to authorize him to side-step the comisario’s absence and collect every last peso of gold and silver from those Haro had lent to. He also asked for the authority to threaten anyone who refused to cooperate with excommunication. The Inquisition approved Saracho’s petition and he and de Melo chased the loans, demanding immediate repayment.
While they were able to retrieve much of the money this way, their strong-arm tactics met with resistance. Included in the manuscript is a 1583 petition by the family members and descendants of the late Gabriel de Loarte, a leading official whom Saracho and de Melo had targeted, complaining of harassment. They argued that their father had received the loans from de Haro, not them. The last document is a ledger from 1583 showing the enormous amount recouped and the remaining amount, which, for all that is known, may have never been accounted for.
“The Oxenham expedition was a true pirate story. Yet academics will spout that he was a privateer and not a pirate? Well, tell that to the Spanish; he was a pirate.
So are you still convinced that, in your words, all pirate-buried stories are just an invented fictional literary trope of pirates burying treasure that traces back to the 19th century?
The fact remains that many buried treasure stories are just stories and, of course, became more popular in 19th-century fiction, but to outright classify all stories as fiction without researching each story on a case-by-case basis is just confirmational bias.
Crow
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Crow
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Hello Cryptid
The Historical Society of Pennsylvania: Daniel Rolph stumbled upon a mysterious letter written in 1716 about a buried treasure. There is no doubt the note is authentic (shown below), but there are other questions being asked. The biggest ones being, ‘Was the treasure ever retrieved?’ or ‘Is it still there where the letter says it is, waiting to be discovered?’ But for us, the point in question is below.
The letter was sent from St. Jago de la Vega, Jamaica. This location, along with the timing and contents of the letter, raises suspicions that the treasure is an actual buried pirate treasure! It is well known Jamaica was a favored location of many pirates traveling the seas in the late 17th and early 18th centuries But it is not proof of pirate treasure, although it does show the concept of buried treasure is much older than the 19th-century fictional book trope.
Getting back to what Bocaj states, which I agree with, just dismissing the "Avery the pirate" letters by the generalizing idea that "pirates will never bury treasure" is strange from someone who has done such deep research into something as questionable as the Palmer maps.
John Krill's papers are in the Library of Los Angeles
Tells of his failed search for alleged treasure connected to Avery.
As you see, they concluded the alleged treasure never existed. If you look at the dates of these alleged 1779 searches, they predate (19th-century romantic fiction trope ). So how can you conclude that Avery's treasure was a 19th-century romantic fiction trope? Tales of buried treasure, at the very least, were in the public consciousness long before the 19th century.
We need to find these letter documents, and I agree with you to see the original documents. If they relate to the above claims. The year 1702 and alleged grant from George of Denmark need to be verified. And Lord North's Correspondence, 1766-1783
February 22 Letter: Reference Code: SP 44/100/541 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 100, Page 541).
February 7 Letter: Reference Code: SP 44/100/541 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 100, Page 541).
May 27 letter: Reference code. Sp 44/101/163 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 101, Page 163).
Researching correspondence of Prince George, the documents are rather scattered. Prince George served as the Lord High Admiral of the Royal Navy (1702–1708) and Generalissimo of all English military forces; the bulk of his official correspondence and administrative paperwork is tied to naval operations. General political and court correspondence from the reigns of King William III and Queen Anne. A significant collection of personal, official, and semi-official papers related to Prince George of Denmark is preserved overseas in the Egerton Family Papers. The Egerton family (specifically John Egerton, 3rd Earl of Bridgewater) held high naval positions (First Lord of the Admiralty) right before and during George's tenure. Their papers contain crucial institutional and court correspondence regarding the Prince.
Crow
The Historical Society of Pennsylvania: Daniel Rolph stumbled upon a mysterious letter written in 1716 about a buried treasure. There is no doubt the note is authentic (shown below), but there are other questions being asked. The biggest ones being, ‘Was the treasure ever retrieved?’ or ‘Is it still there where the letter says it is, waiting to be discovered?’ But for us, the point in question is below.
The letter was sent from St. Jago de la Vega, Jamaica. This location, along with the timing and contents of the letter, raises suspicions that the treasure is an actual buried pirate treasure! It is well known Jamaica was a favored location of many pirates traveling the seas in the late 17th and early 18th centuries But it is not proof of pirate treasure, although it does show the concept of buried treasure is much older than the 19th-century fictional book trope.
Getting back to what Bocaj states, which I agree with, just dismissing the "Avery the pirate" letters by the generalizing idea that "pirates will never bury treasure" is strange from someone who has done such deep research into something as questionable as the Palmer maps.
John Krill's papers are in the Library of Los Angeles
Tells of his failed search for alleged treasure connected to Avery.
As you see, they concluded the alleged treasure never existed. If you look at the dates of these alleged 1779 searches, they predate (19th-century romantic fiction trope ). So how can you conclude that Avery's treasure was a 19th-century romantic fiction trope? Tales of buried treasure, at the very least, were in the public consciousness long before the 19th century.
We need to find these letter documents, and I agree with you to see the original documents. If they relate to the above claims. The year 1702 and alleged grant from George of Denmark need to be verified. And Lord North's Correspondence, 1766-1783
February 22 Letter: Reference Code: SP 44/100/541 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 100, Page 541).
February 7 Letter: Reference Code: SP 44/100/541 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 100, Page 541).
May 27 letter: Reference code. Sp 44/101/163 (State Papers Domestic, Entry Books, Volume 101, Page 163).
Researching correspondence of Prince George, the documents are rather scattered. Prince George served as the Lord High Admiral of the Royal Navy (1702–1708) and Generalissimo of all English military forces; the bulk of his official correspondence and administrative paperwork is tied to naval operations. General political and court correspondence from the reigns of King William III and Queen Anne. A significant collection of personal, official, and semi-official papers related to Prince George of Denmark is preserved overseas in the Egerton Family Papers. The Egerton family (specifically John Egerton, 3rd Earl of Bridgewater) held high naval positions (First Lord of the Admiralty) right before and during George's tenure. Their papers contain crucial institutional and court correspondence regarding the Prince.
Crow
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Crow
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Hello Cryptid
You should really expand your horizons a bit more than falling into the academic trope that there is no such thing as buried treasure.
The following excerpt was taken by photocopy back in the days before smartphones. Taken from Archives des Indes.
it took captain Munoz, sergeant of Perafan Ribera, governor and general captain thas was of Costa Rica, from seculchres that he found one league that entered in the coast, so quantity of gold that filled two big drawers of Castile, and greedy of more wealth, he wanted to enter with 60 soldiers in the inland and leaving buried near a tree the two drawers ...... walking a league, the indians killed several soldiers and he had to embark escaping as quickly as possible and leaving the two buried drawers and all theis soul, and there they are ........
From a letter of father Agustin Ceballos, Granada, Nicaragua, March 10, 1610
AGI (Seville), Section Panama, bundle 17 below
Wherever crime happens, sometimes there is a need to hide ill-gotten gains. Sometimes there is a need to bury treasure. Treasure does evil things to people, and you cannot even trust your own shipmates, who could sometimes sell you out for their share. There is no honour among thieves. So, as you can see, in the year 1610, buried treasure? 17th century. So it hard to claim all pirate treasure stories are 19th-century romantic fiction trope?
So the concept of buried treasure existed long before any academic concept of believing that buried pirate treasure was 19th-century romantic fiction trope?
Crow
You should really expand your horizons a bit more than falling into the academic trope that there is no such thing as buried treasure.
The following excerpt was taken by photocopy back in the days before smartphones. Taken from Archives des Indes.
it took captain Munoz, sergeant of Perafan Ribera, governor and general captain thas was of Costa Rica, from seculchres that he found one league that entered in the coast, so quantity of gold that filled two big drawers of Castile, and greedy of more wealth, he wanted to enter with 60 soldiers in the inland and leaving buried near a tree the two drawers ...... walking a league, the indians killed several soldiers and he had to embark escaping as quickly as possible and leaving the two buried drawers and all theis soul, and there they are ........
From a letter of father Agustin Ceballos, Granada, Nicaragua, March 10, 1610
AGI (Seville), Section Panama, bundle 17 below
Wherever crime happens, sometimes there is a need to hide ill-gotten gains. Sometimes there is a need to bury treasure. Treasure does evil things to people, and you cannot even trust your own shipmates, who could sometimes sell you out for their share. There is no honour among thieves. So, as you can see, in the year 1610, buried treasure? 17th century. So it hard to claim all pirate treasure stories are 19th-century romantic fiction trope?
So the concept of buried treasure existed long before any academic concept of believing that buried pirate treasure was 19th-century romantic fiction trope?
Crow
Crow
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If you look in The National Archives' catalogue
SP - Records assembled by the State Paper Office, including papers of the Secretaries of State up to 1782
Division within SP - State Papers Domestic, Charles II to George III
SP 36 - Secretaries of State: State Papers Domestic, George II
Subseries within SP 36 - LETTERS AND PAPERS
SP 36/116 - Letters and Papers.
You will see actual recovery of buried pirate treasure on Norman Island in
Folios 29-30. Report from the legal officers to Bedford about the rights of ownership to treasure captured by pirates from the Spanish and buried on Normans Island [British Virgin Islands].
Reference: SP 36/116/2/29
Description:
Folios 29-30. Report from the legal officers to Bedford about rights of ownership to treasure captured by pirates from the Spanish and buried on Normans Island [British Virgin Islands].
Date: 1751 June 4
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Language: English
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
The Mutiny: In August 1750, the Spanish treasure galleon Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe sought shelter from a storm. A mutinous crew, led by Captain Owen Lloyd, stole a large portion of the ship's silver cargo—comprising dozens of chests filled with pieces of eight and silver coins—and buried them on Norman Island.
The Recovery: Word of the hidden wealth leaked to neighboring Tortola. Local planters and fortune seekers rushed to the island and dug up a significant portion of the silver. Eventually, the Lieutenant-General of the Leeward Islands sent a warship to confiscate much of the recovered loot from the planters.
Amazing later The Creque Find: In the late 1800s and early 1900s, local fisherman and merchant Henry O. Creque reportedly discovered a cache of gold coins and doubloons inside one of the island's sea caves during a storm; while sheltering from the storm, a small chest fell from a ledge into their boat, helping to fund his family's land acquisitions.
So if the claiming the concept of buried pirate treasure did not exist prior to 19th-century fiction writers, then this above 1751 record should not exist?
As I am aware 1751 falls in the 18th century, prior to the 19th century.
I have a life and had the pleasure of visiting Norman Island, and today it is a tourist attraction. Still, one wonders if there are still caches on the island? You can see tourist pictures below.
You can swim or snorkel or even row a small boat into the cave.
It's a fascinating place to visit.
So, when so-called academics state there is no such thing as buried pirate treasure. Is clearly exhibiting confirmation bias.
Crow
SP - Records assembled by the State Paper Office, including papers of the Secretaries of State up to 1782
Division within SP - State Papers Domestic, Charles II to George III
SP 36 - Secretaries of State: State Papers Domestic, George II
Subseries within SP 36 - LETTERS AND PAPERS
SP 36/116 - Letters and Papers.
You will see actual recovery of buried pirate treasure on Norman Island in
Folios 29-30. Report from the legal officers to Bedford about the rights of ownership to treasure captured by pirates from the Spanish and buried on Normans Island [British Virgin Islands].
Reference: SP 36/116/2/29
Description:
Folios 29-30. Report from the legal officers to Bedford about rights of ownership to treasure captured by pirates from the Spanish and buried on Normans Island [British Virgin Islands].
Date: 1751 June 4
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Language: English
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
The Mutiny: In August 1750, the Spanish treasure galleon Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe sought shelter from a storm. A mutinous crew, led by Captain Owen Lloyd, stole a large portion of the ship's silver cargo—comprising dozens of chests filled with pieces of eight and silver coins—and buried them on Norman Island.
The Recovery: Word of the hidden wealth leaked to neighboring Tortola. Local planters and fortune seekers rushed to the island and dug up a significant portion of the silver. Eventually, the Lieutenant-General of the Leeward Islands sent a warship to confiscate much of the recovered loot from the planters.
Amazing later The Creque Find: In the late 1800s and early 1900s, local fisherman and merchant Henry O. Creque reportedly discovered a cache of gold coins and doubloons inside one of the island's sea caves during a storm; while sheltering from the storm, a small chest fell from a ledge into their boat, helping to fund his family's land acquisitions.
So if the claiming the concept of buried pirate treasure did not exist prior to 19th-century fiction writers, then this above 1751 record should not exist?
As I am aware 1751 falls in the 18th century, prior to the 19th century.
I have a life and had the pleasure of visiting Norman Island, and today it is a tourist attraction. Still, one wonders if there are still caches on the island? You can see tourist pictures below.
You can swim or snorkel or even row a small boat into the cave.
It's a fascinating place to visit.
So, when so-called academics state there is no such thing as buried pirate treasure. Is clearly exhibiting confirmation bias.
Crow
Last edited:
THE TRUE SEEKER
Jr. Member
First, we should clarify the subject. I believe you are probably correct when it comes to Caribbean pirates active during what is commonly known as the Golden Age of Piracy. However, the historian Jan Rogozinski had already pointed out the differences between Caribbean and Indian Ocean pirates in 2000. (HONOR AMONG THIEVES p.233)
In fact, Indian Ocean pirates during the Golden Age plundered large quantities of gold, silver, and precious stones. (source)
I have also personally discovered evidence that Golden Age pirates in the Indian Ocean kept their treasure in storage without spending it.
The following is an English translation of a letter sent by the governor of Réunion Island to the French authorities in the metropole in 1724. (source)
French original text (source)
The last time pirates in the Indian Ocean plundered treasure was in 1721. This means that the pirates mentioned in the 1724 document must have kept their treasure without spending it for at least three years. (This record does not specify which raids these pirates participated in. If the pirates mentioned in this record had acquired the treasure prior to 1721, it would mean that they had kept it in their possession for a period longer than three years.)
Of course, this document does not state that the pirates buried their treasure. However, it does provide evidence that Golden Age pirates in the Indian Ocean kept their treasure for years without spending it—or, more precisely, were unable to spend it.
Last edited:
BennyV
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Aren’t you just splitting hairs?First, we should clarify the subject. I believe you are probably correct when it comes to Caribbean pirates active during what is commonly known as the Golden Age of Piracy. However, the historian Jan Rogozinski had already pointed out the differences between Caribbean and Indian Ocean pirates in 2000. (HONOR AMONG THIEVES p.233)
In fact, Indian Ocean pirates during the Golden Age plundered large quantities of gold, silver, and precious stones. (source)
I have also personally discovered evidence that Golden Age pirates in the Indian Ocean kept their treasure in storage without spending it.
The following is an English translation of a letter sent by the governor of Réunion Island to the French authorities in the metropole in 1724. (source)
View attachment 2268845
French original text (source)
View attachment 2268846
The last time pirates in the Indian Ocean plundered treasure was in 1721. This means that the pirates mentioned in the 1724 document must have kept their treasure without spending it for at least three years. (This record does not specify which raids these pirates participated in. If the pirates mentioned in this record had acquired the treasure prior to 1721, it would mean that they had kept it in their possession for a period longer than three years.)
Of course, this document does not state that the pirates buried their treasure. However, it does provide evidence that Golden Age pirates in the Indian Ocean kept their treasure for years without spending it—or, more precisely, were unable to spend it.
It’s rhetorical. You are.
THE TRUE SEEKER
Jr. Member
？？？
Last edited:
Crow
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There is great irony here.
Both Cryptid and The True Seeker both have the makings of very good researchers. Old Crow cannot give them both enough praise, but I see this....And it breaks my heart because I have seen it all before.
Cryptid is set on the idea that there is no such thing as buried treasure. And now he is set in that cognitive bias because he has a long history of that. When shown anything that contradicts his bias, he ignores it or dismisses it. In fact, that is what he has been doing all his life, hiding safely at home, finding excuses. As I have always said many times, research is key to getting to the truth as close as possible. One danger is building cognitive bias, and I will repeat, I and many others have at one time been guilty of it. There is no shame in it. I keep my mind open and still have my fair share of egg on my face.
The true seeker is fixated on Madagascar and believes only in buried pirate treasure, ignoring the Caribbean because it's not in his area of interest, so he ignores it and dismisses it. Both have cognitive bias and will ultimately fail. And that is sad because both have huge potential but will eventually go nowhere. If both of you think you are going to go through life and not make errors, then you are never going to ever live. Sure, get a history degree, then go and join the dole queue or flip burgers.
Bojai kindly offered a voyage to Madagascar, a trip of a lifetime. Truth Seeker wanted a set itinerary. The wind has no itinerary to follow, my friend; as Bojai and I know, the wind sets the itinerary. Predictability and seeking treasure do not go hand in hand. There are no guarantees in life.
Primary documents will always help build a good picture of what was happening. But it will never ever give you the full picture. Criminals do not follow textbooks written by academic authors. Academics never engage in real-world experience. Sure, there are smart criminals, and there are many dumb criminals. Some people post here who are too narrowly focused on topics that reinforce their bias. Sure, you can do that for your entire life doing that. Life is slipping you by; you can spend your entire life hidden away in rooms reading books and documents, dreaming. I know both of you in your hearts want to break free.
Go to these places and live it, and I will guarantee you will never feel so alive. And you will never be quite the person you were; success or failure does not matter because it's not about the destination; it's the journey that matters.
Bojai I see your monohull guy; they have their benefits, but I have gone over to the dark side. These days I am a cat guy. I sailed in many lagoon- and leopard-built catamaran vessels. This one lagoon I am considering buying. Excellent for the Pacific. I would not use them below the roaring forties. Monohulls rule high-latitude seas.
She hauls ass and is nearly as expensive to maintain nearly as much as my other half.
One hard-learned lesson in life: never ever admit to finding treasure, not even a peanut. Nothing ever comes good from it.
I wish you all calmer seas and a good Christmas.
Crow
Both Cryptid and The True Seeker both have the makings of very good researchers. Old Crow cannot give them both enough praise, but I see this....And it breaks my heart because I have seen it all before.
Cryptid is set on the idea that there is no such thing as buried treasure. And now he is set in that cognitive bias because he has a long history of that. When shown anything that contradicts his bias, he ignores it or dismisses it. In fact, that is what he has been doing all his life, hiding safely at home, finding excuses. As I have always said many times, research is key to getting to the truth as close as possible. One danger is building cognitive bias, and I will repeat, I and many others have at one time been guilty of it. There is no shame in it. I keep my mind open and still have my fair share of egg on my face.
The true seeker is fixated on Madagascar and believes only in buried pirate treasure, ignoring the Caribbean because it's not in his area of interest, so he ignores it and dismisses it. Both have cognitive bias and will ultimately fail. And that is sad because both have huge potential but will eventually go nowhere. If both of you think you are going to go through life and not make errors, then you are never going to ever live. Sure, get a history degree, then go and join the dole queue or flip burgers.
Bojai kindly offered a voyage to Madagascar, a trip of a lifetime. Truth Seeker wanted a set itinerary. The wind has no itinerary to follow, my friend; as Bojai and I know, the wind sets the itinerary. Predictability and seeking treasure do not go hand in hand. There are no guarantees in life.
Primary documents will always help build a good picture of what was happening. But it will never ever give you the full picture. Criminals do not follow textbooks written by academic authors. Academics never engage in real-world experience. Sure, there are smart criminals, and there are many dumb criminals. Some people post here who are too narrowly focused on topics that reinforce their bias. Sure, you can do that for your entire life doing that. Life is slipping you by; you can spend your entire life hidden away in rooms reading books and documents, dreaming. I know both of you in your hearts want to break free.
Go to these places and live it, and I will guarantee you will never feel so alive. And you will never be quite the person you were; success or failure does not matter because it's not about the destination; it's the journey that matters.
Bojai I see your monohull guy; they have their benefits, but I have gone over to the dark side. These days I am a cat guy. I sailed in many lagoon- and leopard-built catamaran vessels. This one lagoon I am considering buying. Excellent for the Pacific. I would not use them below the roaring forties. Monohulls rule high-latitude seas.
She hauls ass and is nearly as expensive to maintain nearly as much as my other half.
One hard-learned lesson in life: never ever admit to finding treasure, not even a peanut. Nothing ever comes good from it.
I wish you all calmer seas and a good Christmas.
Crow
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