What's new

The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

There is great irony here.

Both Cryptid and The True Seeker both have the makings of very good researchers. Old Crow cannot give them both enough praise, but I see this....And it breaks my heart because I have seen it all before.

Cryptid is set on the idea that there is no such thing as buried treasure. And now he is set in that cognitive bias because he has a long history of that. When shown anything that contradicts his bias, he ignores it or dismisses it. In fact, that is what he has been doing all his life, hiding safely at home, finding excuses. As I have always said many times, research is key to getting to the truth as close as possible. One danger is building cognitive bias, and I will repeat, I and many others have at one time been guilty of it. There is no shame in it. I keep my mind open and still have my fair share of egg on my face.

The true seeker is fixated on Madagascar and believes only in buried pirate treasure, ignoring the Caribbean because it's not in his area of interest, so he ignores it and dismisses it. Both have cognitive bias and will ultimately fail. And that is sad because both have huge potential but will eventually go nowhere. If both of you think you are going to go through life and not make errors, then you are never going to ever live. Sure, get a history degree, then go and join the dole queue or flip burgers.

Bojai kindly offered a voyage to Madagascar, a trip of a lifetime. Truth Seeker wanted a set itinerary. The wind has no itinerary to follow, my friend; as Bojai and I know, the wind sets the itinerary. Predictability and seeking treasure do not go hand in hand. There are no guarantees in life.

Primary documents will always help build a good picture of what was happening. But it will never ever give you the full picture. Criminals do not follow textbooks written by academic authors. Academics never engage in real-world experience. Sure, there are smart criminals, and there are many dumb criminals. Some people post here who are too narrowly focused on topics that reinforce their bias. Sure, you can do that for your entire life doing that. Life is slipping you by; you can spend your entire life hidden away in rooms reading books and documents, dreaming. I know both of you in your hearts want to break free.

Go to these places and live it, and I will guarantee you will never feel so alive. And you will never be quite the person you were; success or failure does not matter because it's not about the destination; it's the journey that matters.

Bojai I see your monohull guy; they have their benefits, but I have gone over to the dark side. These days I am a cat guy. I sailed in many lagoon- and leopard-built catamaran vessels. This one lagoon I am considering buying. Excellent for the Pacific. I would not use them below the roaring forties. Monohulls rule high-latitude seas.

View attachment 2268865

She hauls ass and is nearly as expensive to maintain nearly as much as my other half.

One hard-learned lesson in life: never ever admit to finding treasure, not even a peanut. Nothing ever comes good from it.

I wish you all calmer seas and a good Christmas.

Crow

Some of the sources you are citing in this thread are from periods different from the one we are discussing. What people generally picture when they hear the word “pirates” are the pirates who operated during the Golden Age of Piracy. They sailed under pirate flags, made decisions by voting when there were disagreements among the crew, elected their captains by vote, and distributed their plunder almost equally. Kidd and Every were pirates of this era. Is that not this era of piracy we are discussing?

What are you trying to accomplish by bringing up records from 1578, 1610, and 1751? (As for the letter from 1716, even the author is unknown.) At least in this context, those sources are meaningless. You have utterly failed to understand this point. Before going around pointing out other people's biases, you should objectively examine your own actions.

As for your other comments, you are just criticizing others by forcing them into a convenient narrative that fits your own bias. Words like that have absolutely no meaning.
 
Last edited:
Historian E. T. Fox seems to have actually accessed the original document from 1707 (as there are expressions that are not included in the 1922 edition).
I was also able to find the following document. This is an excerpt from Joel H. Baer's British Piracy in the Golden Age, Volume 3. This book is a compilation of various primary sources from that era. (The use of the long s suggests that it was copied directly from contemporary records.)

What I take issue with regarding this document is not its content, but its authenticity. As I will show below, it is based on another document written by an associate of a man known to be a fraudster. Therefore, its credibility cannot be considered high.

Nevertheless, would it not at least serve as evidence that the concept of pirates burying treasure existed as early as 1707?
Thanks for the sources. Having now read the pamphlet in detail and understood the context (I should have done this earlier), it is clear that the capitalised word "Buried" functions as an economic metaphor for stagnant, uncirculated wealth (outside the British commercial system) rather than a literal description of buried or hidden treasure in/near Madagascar. Written by an early 18th-century economic lobbyist, the pamphlet reflects mercantilist anxieties at the time regarding dormant or stagnant wealth in Madagascar. The author explicitly pairs 'Buried' with 'Useless' (note both are capitalised for emphasis), establishing a rhetorical equivalence. Pairing words like this served as an equivalence: being "buried" meant "useless" because wealth removed from British commercial circulation was economically useless (capital removed from commercial flow generated no interest) and the British government (the Exchequer) could not tax or collect duties on it. The author argues that treasure (silver, gold) needs to be brought to England so that it can "Circulate to the Exchequer". In mercantilist terms in the early 18th century, wealth was only valuable if actively circulating within a national monetary system. Silver and gold deposited in banks, invested in stocks, bonds, or merchant shipping generated interest, funded commercial ventures, and built infrastructure. However, Madagascar, by contrast, had no central banking or investment apparatus meaning that Madagascan wealth in the early 18th century was locked outside of the British (and wider European colonial) commercial system and therefore was considered to be "buried and useless" or "dead capital", standing in stark contrast to the deeply integrated financial systems of the Caribbean at the time. "Buried" is thus an economic metaphor.
First, we should clarify the subject. I believe you are probably correct when it comes to Caribbean pirates active during what is commonly known as the Golden Age of Piracy. However, the historian Jan Rogozinski had already pointed out the differences between Caribbean and Indian Ocean pirates in 2000. (HONOR AMONG THIEVES p.233)
Rogozinski (2000) provides a decent summary, and mirrors closely what I was saying: "The buried treasure myth was created during the eighteenth century... Culminating in Treasure Island." My disagreement is the fictional literary tropes of pirates burying treasure and pirate treasure maps ("X marks the spot") date to the 19th century, not the 18th century, however, it could be that this was a typing error in the book and the author meant to say 19th century ("created during... culminating in Treasure Island" suggests 19th century since Treasure Island was published in 1883). As for the idea that pirates in Madagascar stored treasure for longer periods of time:
I have also personally discovered evidence that Golden Age pirates in the Indian Ocean kept their treasure in storage without spending it.
Of course, this document does not state that the pirates buried their treasure. However, it does provide evidence that Golden Age pirates in the Indian Ocean kept their treasure for years without spending it—or, more precisely, were unable to spend it.
The 1707 pamphlet mentions that pirates in Madagascar were "bestowing part of their Booties on the Inhabitants". Some pirates married into local Malagasy royal/clan families to secure safety and social standing. This would have included providing gifts such as treasure to these families, so this perhaps explains why some pirate treasure in Madagascar ended up in storage. Furthermore, the Malagasy economy was built around agriculture, cattle herding, and small-scale trade. A simple explanation is: the local market (such as livestock, crops, timber) could only absorb a tiny fraction of any wealth from pirate plunder so the rest had to be stored inside huts because there was no local outlet to spend it; in this sense treasure was not immediately spent by pirates. There is therefore a basis to what you are saying about Madagascar (treasure was stored longer) and I stand corrected. However, I disagree the pamphlet meant that pirate treasure was ever literally buried.
 
Last edited:
Hello Cryptid

You should really expand your horizons a bit more than falling into the academic trope that there is no such thing as buried treasure.
For lack of a better word, I have bookmarked the dozen or so historical sources you posted and will look at them in closer detail later, but I can immediately see: (a) some of them do not relate to pirates, (b) some are ambiguous English translations of Spanish documents, (c) some do not even mention that treasure was buried and (d) one looks like a forgery. I also agree with THE TRUE SEEKER that there is the issue that numerous sources you posted conflate completely different historical persons/groups, motives, behaviours, and eras. For example, the story recorded by the Franciscan friar Agustín de Cevallos in 1610 you quoted about a sergeant-major named Muñoz—is about a 16th century Spanish colonial expedition member. Muñoz was certainly not a pirate but a crown-appointed officer serving the Spanish Monarchy and he never attacked or robbed ships. According to the friars' account, in 1570, Muñoz found gold in indigenous burial places on land (meaning conquistador grave-robbing) and filled two large chests with it and buried or put them under a tree. The Spanish wording in the document:

The following excerpt was taken by photocopy back in the days before smartphones. Taken from Archives des Indes.

it took captain Munoz, sergeant of Perafan Ribera, governor and general captain thas was of Costa Rica, from seculchres that he found one league that entered in the coast, so quantity of gold that filled two big drawers of Castile, and greedy of more wealth, he wanted to enter with 60 soldiers in the inland and leaving buried near a tree the two drawers ...... walking a league, the indians killed several soldiers and he had to embark escaping as quickly as possible and leaving the two buried drawers and all theis soul, and there they are ........
From a letter of father Agustin Ceballos, Granada, Nicaragua, March 10, 1610
AGI (Seville), Section Panama, bundle 17 below
The "buried near [under] a tree" (or a similar) translation of the Spanish text is found in books but an alternative plausible translation of the words dej̄ando enterrados Al Pie de Vna ceiba is that the chests were wedged into the massive root buttresses at the base of the ceiba tree or its hollows. The latter makes more sense since the text indicates that Captain Muñoz’s unit was moving quickly inland. Digging a hole large enough to bury two heavy, iron-bound Castilian chests (cajones de Castilla) amidst the thick, interwoven root system of a giant ceiba tree without heavy entrenching tools would have been extremely difficult and time-consuming. Regardless of whether the chests of gold were buried or left under the tree's root buttresses, the document explains these chests were stashed temporarily because of an emergency. Muñoz stashed the two chests so his unit could travel light while marching inland ("quiso entrar... La tierra adentro"). When his troops were attacked and forced his retreat back to the sea, he was forced to flee without retrieving the chests so he did not plan to leave the chest for long. This means that the chests were only stashed as a very temporary logistical measure (obviously different to the fictional literary trope of pirates burying treasure). All that said, it is doubtful any of this actually happened. The friar was writing 40-years after the event and was relying on second-hand sources, but if it did happen, it is not even an example of a pirate burying treasure.

Privateer John Oxenham sailed with Sir Francis Drake, raided Spanish ships for gold and silver and was the first Englishman to build a boat in the Americas and to sail the Pacific - before meeting his end in the hangman’s noose. Now, his extraordinary tale, told in a contemporary manuscript of that era which records events from 1578-83, below, please look at the date of the document. September 1578
The 16th century document (the page you showed) does not mention treasure was buried:
Received on September 1, 1578 Most Illustrious Lords On September 1, 1578

Regarding the five thousand pesos of gold from the Englishmen that were seized in Panama.

The Englishmen reconciled by the Holy Office were named: Captain Juan de Hoznen [John Oxenham] = Juan Buthar [John Butler] = also named N. Chalona = and Henry Butler his brother = and Thomas Beroes Master = No. 30.


[Main Body Text:]
By order of Your Worships, I was notified that regarding the gold placed in my deposit—taken from the Englishmen who came to this South Sea—so that it might be secured at present, I should turn over 5,000 pesos, to be held in deposit under my care along with a command to [deliver it to] an authorized person until Your Worships should order otherwise. To which I answered as was fitting and appropriate, in full obedience to the mandates of the Holy Office.

After said order, the Royal Audiencia [High Court] of the said city ... certain individuals who owed gold pesos from my said deposit requested them and entered into a lawsuit with the prosecutor in the said Royal Audiencia ... and ordered them delivered. In execution of this, after four months had passed, charges amounting to about 800 pesos of fine gold were demanded of me to pay, under threat of imprisonment.

Having been served regarding this matter, I argued that these funds were granted and held in deposit by order of Your Worships, with strict instructions not to pay them under pain of major excommunication, and that I would answer for them in person or through a representative as someone compliant with the decrees of the Holy Office. I petitioned for a injunction directed to the said Royal Audiencia to remit my case back to the Holy Office.

But the Royal Audiencia, having reviewed the matter and considering the documentation presented regarding the lawsuit I had with Gaspar Pérez, a merchant from New Spain, ordered that I pay it so the mandates would be satisfied without charge. However, it was ordered that the bailiff arrest me, seize my property, and levy the costs of the proceedings upon me. This was carried out, and they have sold the enslaved servants (negros) of my household while I remain imprisoned, as Your Worships will see from the legal records attached.

I beg Your Worships to review this matter and instruct me on what I ought to do, as my intention and desire has always been to serve Your Worships. May Our Lord guard and preserve your Most Illustrious persons and increase your state. From Panama, July 7, 1578.

Most Illustrious Lords, Your servant,[Signed] Diego Madrigal "el Mozo" [or local notary/depositary]
I did look this up, and found the following: Joannes de Laet's Beschrijvinghe van West-Indien (1630) contains a chapter titled “De voyagie van Ian Oxenham Engelsman” (“The voyage of the Englishman John Oxenham”). The Dutch text says this account was supplied by a Portuguese informant and the relevant passage (relating to treasure) appears in this chapter. To summarise: the Spaniards followed the English up the Tuira river in Panama and then searched to find a hut where the English had left treasure: “een hutte van tacken ghemaeckt, daer de Engelsche al de schat geborgen hadden”. Translation: "A hut made of wood [branches] in which the English had stored the treasure". They were being pursued by the Spanish so left their treasure behind in a hut. I think you misread a website. The text at the bottom from this site ("They were eventually pursued upriver and were able to bury some of their treasure") is not a translation or accurate summary of the document. The earliest dated source to mention that the treasure was buried is Dottings on the Roadside, in Panama, Nicaragua, and Mosquito by Thomas W. Pim (published in 1869; pp. 167-168 [see below]). It tells the story differently. It states that the Spanish arrived at the place "where the treasure had been provisionally buried". This was not mentioned in the 1630 Dutch source and the variant tale of buried treasure dates to the late 19th century. Similar to the previous source you posted, in both of the Oxenham accounts (1630 and 1869) the treasure was left behind as a temporary or expedient logistical measure in the circumstance of a pursuit, rather than a long-term hiding place intended to preserve wealth for some future recovery. That distinction matters when comparing these sources with the fictional trope of pirates burying treasure for later retrieval for a different purpose. A temporary measure taken is not evidence of broader burial practice.

1792430134451.webp

1792430275796.webp

So are you still convinced that, in your words, all pirate-buried stories are just an invented fictional literary trope of pirates burying treasure that traces back to the 19th century?
Yes. Nothing you have posted refutes that. My view is more or less the academic consensus. One book I can recommend is Why We Love Pirates: The Hunt for Captain Kidd and How He Changed Piracy Forever (2020) by the scholar Rebecca Simon who emphasises that the popular image of pirates burying chests of gold and drawing maps with "X marks the spot" is purely fictional. She documents that the overwhelming majority of pirate plunder during the Golden Age of Piracy consisted of trade goods—cloth, sugar, lumber, tobacco, and alcohol—which would rot or ruin if buried. Treasure was also divided immediately among crew members as per ship articles and spent quickly at pirate-friendly ports like Nassau or Port Royal. As I noted in a previous comment, most pirates died within two to three years of taking up piracy; they lived fast and spent their money quickly; they had no long-term financial planning or motivation to hoard treasure underground. That said, there are some maritime historians, who as THE TRUE SEEKER points out, have argued that Madagascar was an exception and that pirates there stored treasure for longer periods. However, there is no evidence that pirates in/near Madagascar buried treasure or hid it underground, even if they stored it for longer. The mention of "Buried" in the 1707 pamphlet is an economic metaphor.

The Historical Society of Pennsylvania: Daniel Rolph stumbled upon a mysterious letter written in 1716 about a buried treasure. There is no doubt the note is authentic (shown below), but there are other questions being asked. The biggest ones being, ‘Was the treasure ever retrieved?’ or ‘Is it still there where the letter says it is, waiting to be discovered?’ But for us, the point in question is below. The letter was sent from St. Jago de la Vega, Jamaica. This location, along with the timing and contents of the letter, raises suspicions that the treasure is an actual buried pirate treasure! It is well known Jamaica was a favored location of many pirates traveling the seas in the late 17th and early 18th centuries But it is not proof of pirate treasure, although it does show the concept of buried treasure is much older than the 19th-century fictional book trope.
I am aware of this letter but it looks like a forgery. The Historical Society of Pennsylvania has no record explaining how the letter entered its collection. A document in a collection like this having no acquisition record is highly suspicious. Its filing card in the collection does not establish ownership prior to entering the collection so it has no provenance before 1996 (when a researcher said they stumbled across it in the collection). To my knowledge, there have been no tests to authenticate the age of the document and ink. There are possible linguistic anachronisms (20th century) in the document as well and these have been discussed elsewhere.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the sources. Having now read the pamphlet in detail and understood the context (I should have done this earlier), it is clear that the capitalised word "Buried" functions as an economic metaphor for stagnant, uncirculated wealth (outside the British commercial system) rather than a literal description of buried or hidden treasure in/near Madagascar. Written by an early 18th-century economic lobbyist, the pamphlet reflects mercantilist anxieties at the time regarding dormant or stagnant wealth in Madagascar. The author explicitly pairs 'Buried' with 'Useless' (note both are capitalised for emphasis), establishing a rhetorical equivalence. Pairing words like this served as an equivalence: being "buried" meant "useless" because wealth removed from British commercial circulation was economically useless (capital removed from commercial flow generated no interest) and the British government (the Exchequer) could not tax or collect duties on it. The author argues that treasure (silver, gold) needs to be brought to England so that it can "Circulate to the Exchequer". In mercantilist terms in the early 18th century, wealth was only valuable if actively circulating within a national monetary system. Silver and gold deposited in banks, invested in stocks, bonds, or merchant shipping generated interest, funded commercial ventures, and built infrastructure. However, Madagascar, by contrast, had no central banking or investment apparatus meaning that Madagascan wealth in the early 18th century was locked outside of the British (and wider European colonial) commercial system and therefore was considered to be "buried and useless" or "dead capital", standing in stark contrast to the deeply integrated financial systems of the Caribbean at the time. "Buried" is thus an economic metaphor.

Rogozinski (2000) provides a decent summary, and mirrors closely what I was saying: "The buried treasure myth was created during the eighteenth century... Culminating in Treasure Island." My disagreement is the fictional literary tropes of pirates burying treasure and pirate treasure maps ("X marks the spot") date to the 19th century, not the 18th century, however, it could be that this was a typing error in the book and the author meant to say 19th century ("created during... culminating in Treasure Island" suggests 19th century since Treasure Island was published in 1883). As for the idea that pirates in Madagascar stored treasure for longer periods of time:


The 1707 pamphlet mentions that pirates in Madagascar were "bestowing part of their Booties on the Inhabitants". Some pirates married into local Malagasy royal/clan families to secure safety and social standing. This would have included providing gifts such as treasure to these families, so this perhaps explains why some pirate treasure in Madagascar ended up in storage. Furthermore, the Malagasy economy was built around agriculture, cattle herding, and small-scale trade. A simple explanation is: the local market (such as livestock, crops, timber) could only absorb a tiny fraction of any wealth from pirate plunder so the rest had to be stored inside huts because there was no local outlet to spend it; in this sense treasure was not immediately spent by pirates. There is therefore a basis to what you are saying about Madagascar (treasure was stored longer) and I stand corrected. However, I disagree the pamphlet meant that pirate treasure was ever literally buried.

Thank you for your reply. The 1707 pamphlet states, “as Useless and Unprofitable as the Earth that covers it.” Considering that the word 'Buried' is used earlier in the passage, doesn't it mean that the author of this pamphlet intended for the treasure to be literally buried in the ground?

Also, I think the phrase 'buried or useless' implies that not all treasures are buried in the ground. (For example, treasure stored unused inside a pirate’s house in Madagascar is not considered "buried.")

1000000371.webp
 
Getting back to what Bocaj states, which I agree with, just dismissing the "Avery the pirate" letters by the generalizing idea that "pirates will never bury treasure" is strange from someone who has done such deep research into something as questionable as the Palmer maps.

John Krill's papers are in the Library of Los Angeles

Tells of his failed search for alleged treasure connected to Avery.
As I noted in a previous comment:
The biographical pamphlet Note of John Knill 1733-1811, was not published until 1871. The earliest literary source I could find that mentions Knill was searching for Avery's treasure is dated 1848 (Rev. C. A. Johns, Week at the Lizard).
John Knill (b. 1733) died in 1811. He served as the Collector of Customs at St Ives, Cornwall, and Mayor of St Ives. A biographical pamphlet about him was published in 1871 (60-years after his death). The 26-page pamphlet was published by John Jope Rogers, under his initials J. J. R (p. 26). The pamphlet mentions that Mr. Knill in 1779 began searching for Avery's treasure on the coast of Cornwall (p. 9) based on a report that "Avery amassed a vast amount of treasure, and on one occasion was reported to have concealed in a cave, east of the Lizard point, certain chests of treasure" (p. 10). The problem is there is no document I can find or access from the 18th century or even first quarter of the 19th century that makes this claim. In 1838, the author Davies Gilbert (The Parochial History of Cornwall, p. 128) first mentioned Knill was searching for Avery's treasure. Rev. C. A. Johns, a decade later, in his Week at the Lizard (1848, p. 210) copied or paraphrased Gilbert's text:

1792500741128.webp


Gilbert (1838):

1792501116665.webp


The 1871 pamphlet (p. 9) in fact mentions Gilbert (1938):

1792516100143.webp


To sum up, there are three sources:

1792533742749.webp


These sources contradict each other when Knill supposedly obtained a treasure-trove grant. The Folk-Lore Journal (1887, vol. 5) quotes the Rev. C. A. Johns’s A Week at the Lizard (1848) which states Knill obtained a treasure-trove grant "about the year 1770" but the 1871 pamphlet (p. 10) dates the treasure-trove grant to post-1779.

The following are the main reasons I doubt there ever was a treasure-trove grant:
  • No Official Crown Grant (Patent Rolls): Grants of treasure trove were formal legal instruments granted under the Great Seal or Treasury warrants. If Knill was granted a Crown Grant c. 1770 or post-1779, a record should exist in the Crow Estate Papers or Patent Rolls (C 66) held at The National Archives. No such entry naming John Knill has ever been produced or cited with a TNA shelf mark.
  • No mention in Knill's diary: Knill is known to have kept a diary, yet nothing in it mentioned a treasure-trove grant or anything about him searching for treasure (if it had done so, it would have been quoted in later sources including historians who accessed the diary).
Why did Davies Gilbert make this up in 1838 (27 years after Knill's death)? There are at least two possibilities:
  • Eccentricity: By the 1830s, Knill had a posthumous reputation as an eccentric or oddball figure in Cornwall due to his 50-foot pyramid obelisk and dancing rituals. Local folklore could have exaggerated his attributed eccentric deeds (= searching for Avery's treasure).
  • Conflation with Official Customs Duties: As the Collector of Customs, Knill was responsible for dealing with wreckage and seized smuggled goods. In the early 19th-century, "wreck" and "treasure trove" could have easily been conflated in local speech. A routine seizure of contraband goods by Knill may have by word of mouth over years been distorted into "search for Avery's gold."
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom