Tucson does allow MDing

[Melissa Archibald]

Tucson does allow metal detecting but you need permission first and I really don't understand that one, unless its to discourage it as much as possible without making it illegal? The Ironwood National Forest is close by to me but I have never even seen a ranger near it let alone in it but I guess there has to be. I'd like to go up to Superstition Mountains, AZ up in Apache area and see if I can find the lost mine but people who do tend to not be seen again.

 

[CincinnatiKid]

What about permits and digging tools? Round here the powers that be can get kind of picky as to where you can detect and what you can dig with.
But I don't have the luxury of detecting the huge area you speak of.
GL
Peace ✌

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tucson does allow metal detecting but you need permission first and I really don't understand that one, ....

Pray-tell, where did you find this info? Who or what told you that you needed "permission" for Tuscon ? Is this a link you found somewhere? If so, what is the source of THAT info? I mean, is that just some bored bureaucrat's answer to someone else's "pressing question", to which he just gave his passing whimsical opinion? Or is this actually written down somewhere in city code ?

I have gone all through Tuscon's website, clicking on all sort of things under their "codes and ordinances" tab. Key word searches, etc... And I find nothing that says what you're saying. Perhaps I'm just not seeing it ?

 

[gollum]

Tucson does allow metal detecting but you need permission first and I really don't understand that one, unless its to discourage it as much as possible without making it illegal? The Ironwood National Forest is close by to me but I have never even seen a ranger near it let alone in it but I guess there has to be. I'd like to go up to Superstition Mountains, AZ up in Apache area and see if I can find the lost mine but people who do tend to not be seen again.

Melissa,

First, I wouldn't take a metal detector anywhere near the Superstition Mountain Wilderness Area or the Tonto National Forest. You will be arrested if caught.

Second, yes there have been several murders and disappearances over the last couple of hundred years, but thousands of people roam the Supers every year. You stand a much better chance of dying from snakebite or heat than from THE CURSE OF THE LDM.

Mike

 

[Melissa Archibald]

That's what is so confusing is the laws say that recreational metal detecting is allowed in National Forests.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

That's what is so confusing is the laws say that recreational metal detecting is allowed in National Forests.

Correct. So I too don't know what gollum is referring to, about Tonto National forest being different, than the rest of the national forests around the USA. If he can cite something from them saying such a thing, I'll bet you dollars-to-donuts its' referring to antiquities and cultural heritage stuff. FINE THEN, "you're just looking for modern change and fumble-fingers modern jewelry, right?" Presto, problem solved.

 

[DonDigger]

Melissa, have you looked at the Arizona sub-forum to see if you could find a local club? With Arizona's history of mining and the old west heritage I have to believe that you have a local metal detecting club in the Tuscon area. I bet those guys could steer you in the direction of some awesome sites. If you haven't found the state sites yet, go to the top of the page and click the Forum tab and scroll down close to the bottom of the page and you will find the states listed. Good luck!

Don

 

[gollum]

Tom in Ca,

She was talking about looking for the Lost Dutchman Mine. She would not be looking for modern trinkets and fumble fingered jewelry. While Tonto permits metal detecting (to a point), if she is trying to uncover a lost mine, there will be much more than just small surface digging. Even if she was not doing extensive digging, if she is off trail detecting and digging, then it would be up to the Rangers as to how they would classify her activities. If they wanted to call it mining, they would see if she had filed for the proper permissions. If not, they can charge. Since the LDM is over 100 years old, she would be looking for things that they could call "archaeologically important artifacts", which would place her in the criminal category.


That is Tonto. See what happens in the Superstition Mountain Wilderness Area if they catch you swinging a detector.

Melissa,

If you want to hunt the Lost Dutchman Mine, then I advise you to use one of the following methods:

1. Learn Spanish Mexican Mining Techniques and field symbolism. The problem with that is that there have been a lot of fake rock symbols carved there in the last hundred years or so. Hard to tell the difference between a 150 year old authentic engraving and an 80 year old hoax.

2. Learn to prospect like the old timers. Take a pan with you and work the dry creek beds. Follow the color upstream till it stops, then go back to the last place you panned gold and start looking uphill. Problem with that is that Waltz himself said that "No miner will ever find my mine!"

It ain't gonna be easy. That's why the mine is still lost since 1891!

Mike

 

[Melissa Archibald]

I'm not local in Tucson I live out in the desert West of Tucson about 30 miles. Why should I have to join a club to pursue a hobby? I just got through talking about this stuff on the other site that banned me that I don't want to join a club but they persisted on me. Just because you own a metal detector you shouldn't be forced to join a club that you have to pay for.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom in Ca,

She was talking about looking for the Lost Dutchman Mine. She would not be looking for modern trinkets and fumble fingered jewelry. While Tonto permits metal detecting (to a point),....

Mike, the how is it, that countless people go there looking for it then ? I just watched a TV documentary (American Un-earthed) with a whole episode on that "lost Dutchman mine" (a geeky show, I know, but.... hey, nothing else good was on). And in the course of the entire episode, interviewing multiple others who are way-steeped in it ... At NO time was anything said on the show about how what they were doing was illegal. Or that others who routinely hike those hills are doing something illegal.

I think you are just the latest victim of the psychology that can/does happen when you ask enough bored purist archies, a bunch of questions peppered with "dig" and "take" and "remove" and "cultural heritage" and "indian bone", etc.. Well SURE! You can ALWAYS find someone to tell you "no". Even for the most innocuous sandbox.

While I'm sure that the entire Dutchman's mine thing is just silly lore and fables, yet..... fact is, a lot of people believe it's true. And a lot of people have trekked hither and yonder over those hills for it. There's an entire section dedicated to it on this forum in fact. And if you look through all the past posts, are you saying all those people were/are violating the law?

 

[Melissa Archibald]

From what I understand about the Lost Dutchman's mine it is real but then who knows what part of it is real as the story probably got told million's of times by now over and over and changed more each time through. Its sort of like the ones who spend their lives looking for the Lost Ark.

 

[gollum]

Mike, the how is it, that countless people go there looking for it then ? I just watched a TV documentary (American Un-earthed) with a whole episode on that "lost Dutchman mine" (a geeky show, I know, but.... hey, nothing else good was on). And in the course of the entire episode, interviewing multiple others who are way-steeped in it ... At NO time was anything said on the show about how what they were doing was illegal. Or that others who routinely hike those hills are doing something illegal.

I think you are just the latest victim of the psychology that can/does happen when you ask enough bored purist archies, a bunch of questions peppered with "dig" and "take" and "remove" and "cultural heritage" and "indian bone", etc.. Well SURE! You can ALWAYS find someone to tell you "no". Even for the most innocuous sandbox.

While I'm sure that the entire Dutchman's mine thing is just silly lore and fables, yet..... fact is, a lot of people believe it's true. And a lot of people have trekked hither and yonder over those hills for it. There's an entire section dedicated to it on this forum in fact. And if you look through all the past posts, are you saying all those people were/are violating the law?

Tom,


I have been in and out of the Supers dozens of times. I usually don't broadcast my comings and goings. I have hiked much of the North, South, and East Sides. I spend most of my time off trail hiking. I am friendly with Scott Wood, who is the Chief Archaeologist for the Tonto National Forest (for the last 35 years). I understand the laws as they stand, but in many places, the laws are open to some interpretation. That interpretation is 99% of the time left up to the resident archaeologists/rangers.


Your opinion on the Lost Dutchman Mine very simply shows a severe lack of knowledge of the subject. The Peralta/Gonzales Families owned several gold mines in the area until they were chased out after the Gadsden Purchase, and non Americans could not own mines in this new section of America. Jacob Waltz somehow (there are several stories) got one of them as late as 1872 (about). Although he lived a meager existence, several times he magically came up with thousands of dollars (in late 1800s dollars) to help out his friends. The largest was $2400 (I believe) to buy a new soda machine for his friend Julia Thomas' Ice Cream Parlor. On his death bed, several times he tried to describe the location of "HIS MINE", but Rhinehardt Petrasch was more interested in being drunk than listening to an old dying German. That's why his Uncle never forgave him for not listening to Waltz, and likely the reason he committed suicide several years later.


For someone to say that old hidden mines don't exist in the area, I advise you to research The Mormon Stope of the Mammoth Mine in Goldfield. While following a vein, the Mammoth broke into and old working. They found the entrance hidden by a fitted door and large stone. Several million dollars of gold were taken from this last section of the Mammoth. Many agree the Mormon Stope was likely one of the original Peralta Mines. Another mine was found in the late 1990s. It is known as "The Pit Mine". It was worked in secret between 1997 and 1999. Exactly what came out of it is OFFICIALLY UNKNOWN, but for several people to spend months at a time during the Summer excavating a hole in the Western Supers says they weren't making mud pies. The Pit Mine also checks off some of the same boxes as the LDM. Some of the people that worked The Pit Mine said that they believed they found the LDM. I don't think so. It doesn't check off a couple of the most important.


So, before just poopooing the idea of something you don't know much about, I suggest reading. A LOT has been learned in recent years that was never available even ten years ago.


Mike

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Gollum - Mike: my point was not about the reality of the "lost Dutchman mine". You are welcome to believe in, and look for it. My point was about your point in #4, that anyone who dares detect there is a going to be in trouble (ie.: illegal, blah blah). You had said:

.... I wouldn't take a metal detector anywhere near the Superstition Mountain Wilderness Area or the Tonto National Forest. You will be arrested if caught.....

But now you're saying:

...... I have been in and out of the Supers dozens of times..... I have hiked much of the North, South, and East Sides. I spend most of my time off trail hiking. I am friendly with Scott Wood, who is the Chief Archaeologist for the Tonto National Forest (for the last 35 years). I understand the laws as they stand, but in many places, the laws are open to some interpretation. That interpretation is 99% of the time left up to the resident archaeologists/rangers. .....

Ok, so which is it? Can people detect there (as is happening all-the-time) w/o issue, LIKE YOU DO? Or are they certain-to-be-arrested if caught, blah blah blah ? See the contradiction?

Oh, and by the way, if you really want to find a bunch more lost mines, robbery loots, etc... stories, then all you need to do is pick up any treasure mag. from the 1970s to early 1980s. They were FILLED with all sorts of colorful sure-fire iron-clad stories. The dying miner drags himself into the wild-west saloon.... the lone-survivor of an indian attack. Before dying he spills his story of fabulous riches, with the following 4 clues, blah blah blah. They sold a lot of magazines, and were fun reading. In fact, a buddy of mine submitted one that got accepted and printed. Totally made up fun. But hey, throw in a few faded newspaper clippings, and add a drawing of a miner and his burro, then it MUST be true

 

[markmar]

Tom in Ca,

She was talking about looking for the Lost Dutchman Mine. She would not be looking for modern trinkets and fumble fingered jewelry. While Tonto permits metal detecting (to a point), if she is trying to uncover a lost mine, there will be much more than just small surface digging. Even if she was not doing extensive digging, if she is off trail detecting and digging, then it would be up to the Rangers as to how they would classify her activities. If they wanted to call it mining, they would see if she had filed for the proper permissions. If not, they can charge. Since the LDM is over 100 years old, she would be looking for things that they could call "archaeologically important artifacts", which would place her in the criminal category.


That is Tonto. See what happens in the Superstition Mountain Wilderness Area if they catch you swinging a detector.

Melissa,

If you want to hunt the Lost Dutchman Mine, then I advise you to use one of the following methods:

1. Learn Spanish Mexican Mining Techniques and field symbolism. The problem with that is that there have been a lot of fake rock symbols carved there in the last hundred years or so. Hard to tell the difference between a 150 year old authentic engraving and an 80 year old hoax.

2. Learn to prospect like the old timers. Take a pan with you and work the dry creek beds. Follow the color upstream till it stops, then go back to the last place you panned gold and start looking uphill. Problem with that is that Waltz himself said that "No miner will ever find my mine!"

It ain't gonna be easy. That's why the mine is still lost since 1891!

Mike

Yes Mike , Waltz have said " No miner will find my mine " because he knew the reason . The old timers prospecting style don't works with the Peraltas mines . They found the mines with the old style but after managed to can't be found with the same style .
And how they did that ?
From my research , I BELIEVE how I know the answer :

Below the LDM , where the canyon had a moderate course and runs for about 100 yards at the same altitude , they have dug a trench 1 ft deep , about 50 yards long on the canyon course , making a natural trap for the washed gold .

The same did for the other mines which are in the Heart region . Where the canyon had the same altitude for about 150 yards , they have dug a conic moat about 80 ft deep , about 50 yards before the canyon turns in a steep ravine .

Just my opinion .

 

[Melissa Archibald]

Not far from my home here in the desert there is an area where I found the quartz rock and it has a lot of black sand around I mean a lot, I should probably pan at this spot also.

 

[markmar]

Not far from my home here in the desert there is an area where I found the quartz rock and it has a lot of black sand around I mean a lot, I should probably pan at this spot also.

Good luck Melissa ( Bee - in Greek )

 

[DFX DAVE in M.D.]

On The America Uneathed Episode, Scott [ Indiana Jonser] Wolter was told part of The Superstition Mountains is on private property, I think the east side, I can't remember what part.

 

[markmar]

Tucson does allow metal detecting but you need permission first and I really don't understand that one, unless its to discourage it as much as possible without making it illegal? The Ironwood National Forest is close by to me but I have never even seen a ranger near it let alone in it but I guess there has to be. I'd like to go up to Superstition Mountains, AZ up in Apache area and see if I can find the lost mine but people who do tend to not be seen again.

Melissa

I was excited with the LDM story and I forgot to tell my opinion in the MD permission case . I believe a permission for whatever is only an approbation how you have knowledge about the rules and how to use your hobby in relation with the Nature in general .
For example , in Greece , to get a hunting ( not treasure ) permission , have to read a small book with the general hunting rules . After a week you have to write an exam with the rules , and if you have more than 95% success ( allowed only one wrong answer ), you get the permission . After, if you apply for a local ( your county ) permission , they give you a paper note which says where and when you can hunt and how many of every species you can hunt per day . The permission is valid for one year , and the next year when you will go to validate it again , they give you a new paper note with the changes which has occurred in your region .
For this , Melissa , you should not misinterpret the permission case . Is to protect you and the Mother Nature .