JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

cactusjumper...

I agree, the Spanish soldiers were locked in to a semi-rigid set of rules, I think they had a choice of several possible signs and markers to use, but the Jesuits were not locked into the same set of rules. The Jesuits may have followed the rules to a certain degree, but very likely used/developed their own rules as they went along, all depending on who it was, where they were, and who they were helping or working with.

As far as what has been posted be numerous people, the Jesuits and the church claimed the Jesuits did not own or work mines. Why then were the Jesuits extensively trained in mining and mineralogy. They could have used the same signs as the Spanish, but applied their own meaning to them, or modified the signs to fit their own needs.

Just keep an open mind when following the Jesuit trail. Look closely at all the signs, and then take a step back and think outside the box, I think the Jesuits thought outside of the box.
 

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cactusjumper said:
Mike,

Despite what has been written here, I believe the Jesuits were never locked into a rigid set of rules. The circumstances and local people and conditions gave them some degree of latitude in what guided them on a daily basis.

That is how the Order was run from the start.

Take Care,

Joe
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Joe,

Father Polzer SJ's Book "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" says differently. If you have any questions regarding that subject, the book is very specific.

Their travel was regulated as well as the amount of chocolate they were allowed to consume daily.

In the beginning, they were just given guidelines. Later on, as the bad habits manifested themselves, the rules and precepts became more specific and rigid. A lot depended on the individual Father Provincial who each had their particular ideas as to what was important to regulate at the time.

Best-Mike
 

Jon,

Around 40-years ago I was well outside the box. In the years that followed I studied the history of Mexico, the Jesuits the Native Americans and a number of related subjects. I seldom go into such things half-burroed. A great deal of money and time later, I have developed some hard personal opinions.

A few Jesuits may have been involved in mining in Mexico, and used their Indian charges to do the labor but, IMHO, it was out of the norm.
There may be some church artifacts that were hidden away around the time of the expulsion, but theft by the soldiers and local natives probably accounts for most of that......treasure.

I hear stories from people who followed these Spanish markers and trails to treasure, but not one of them has ever found anything that can be authenticated. It's all stories. Most of the time it's "I know someone" or "I have a friend who knows someone"......etc.

If you step outside the box that firmly seems to enclose you, these secret codes are not logical, in that not one document can be found that has survived to modern times. There had to be thousands of such documents generated in that era telling everyone how to mark the "treasure trails" and mine locations. Not one such document has been found.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Mike,

As you know, I have had Father Polzer's "Rules and Precepts" for many years. I know what the book says, and I know, as you have said, the priests in Northern Mexico did what was appropriate for the place and era they found themselves living in.

Each such place dictated its own set of rules. They were men, and did what they had to do to survive and keep their people and missions going. They, of course, did not always succeed, but most of them did their best.

From the beginning of the Order, the Society of Jesus was designed to work within the "rules" set by the places where they landed.

Take care,

Joe
 

Jon,

"As far as what has been posted be numerous people, the Jesuits and the church claimed the Jesuits did not own or work mines. Why then were the Jesuits extensively trained in mining and mineralogy. They could have used the same signs as the Spanish, but applied their own meaning to them, or modified the signs to fit their own needs."

The answer to your question is very simple. Not all Jesuits were trained in mining and mineralogy. They were always closely associated with the miners, for obvious reasons. The Jesuits were teachers, and taught many of the sciences of the day. They founded many universities and were some of the best professors to be found......on just about any subject.

Some of them, like me, didn't know $#!t about rocks.

Take care,

Joe
 

Joe,

As you know, I agree with you on Jesuit Priests' direct involvement in mining. Their days were far too busy ministering to the needs of the Indians to be running any mines.

You seem to want to discount anything to do with Temporal Coadjutors though, and I don't understand why. Don't make me start calling you LAMAR! HAHAHA There are SEVERAL documented cases where Temporal Coadjutors were used as fund raisers, property managers, etc. Even so far as to have been held and "harshly" questioned by the Spanish regarding Jesuit Wealth during the arrests in 1767.

As far as Jesuits not knowing &^%&^ about rocks, that is true for Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese Jesuits. Not so for German and Austrian Jesuits. The greatest majority of them were well versed in the Earth Sciences.

Jon,

The Jesuits that were schooled in Earth Sciences were trained in Europe (for the most part). The one question I have always had is were they brought in specifically because they already had that knowledge?

How about this scenario:

German Jesuits that had extensive knowledge of prospecting and mining were brought to the New World so they would be in a position to interpret Indians' descriptions of locations or ore bodies as well as knowing what to look for while they were traveling between missions and asistencias. Maybe they used their knowledge to pass along this valuable mineral information to their known coadjutors, who would then legally exploit the minerals, giving much of the profit back to the Jesuits in the form of tithes. The Jesuits would then use that wealth to assist their coadjutors in getting appointments to powerful positions in the military and police, and get others elected to office. That way, should things begin to go bad for the Jesuits, they would have powerful friends in positions to help them (powerful enough to get a General thrown into prison for only a critical letter).

Just a thought.

Best-Mike
 

Mike,

There is little doubt about the Jesuits power......which couldn't save them. Everything else remains what ifs and maybes. All that torture and not a single person ever broke, not even a "Temporal Coadjutor". Even many of the Knights Templars broke under that kind of torture. These were not priests and their helpers, but men who were of a different breed of cat.

So far, the secret codes and markers to treasure or mineral wealth, remain good stories and nothing else.

I spent plenty of years chasing that ghost.

Take care,

Joe
 

Mike,

[You seem to want to discount anything to do with Temporal Coadjutors though, and I don't understand why. Don't make me start calling you LAMAR! HAHAHA There are SEVERAL documented cases where Temporal Coadjutors were used as fund raisers, property managers, etc. Even so far as to have been held and "harshly" questioned by the Spanish regarding Jesuit Wealth during the arrests in 1767.]

That's not true at all. I am very familiar with the Laymen and their roll in the work of the Jesuit priests in the New World.......and the rest of the world as well.

Being ["harshly" questioned] by the Spanish concerning mining or treasures has absolutely nothing to do with the factual truth of those subjects. After all, the Spanish soldiers were sent into the Jesuit cess-pools diving for evidence. As you know, they found......crap. :dontknow:

Much like the treasure hunters of today, they were obsessed with Jesuit treasure.

At one time I was just, like you, a firm believer in the legends. After 45 or so years of research, I weighed the accumulated solid evidence and found it to be a little/lot light......to be kind.

Despite our friend Don Jose's "find", after many years of telling his story, we are left with no evidence, that can be authenticated, concerning Jesuit treasure or mining.

I am reminded of the bare chested man holding the "Spanish" ingots. I believe the story was that he was afraid to get them authenticated because the government would end up with his find. It's not logical that he would have his picture taken with the "treasure" and not have the same fear.

Beyond that, there are a number of places, as you know, where one ingot could be taken and authenticated without government involvement. He did not need to expose his entire find.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Mike,

[You seem to want to discount anything to do with Temporal Coadjutors though, and I don't understand why. Don't make me start calling you LAMAR! HAHAHA There are SEVERAL documented cases where Temporal Coadjutors were used as fund raisers, property managers, etc. Even so far as to have been held and "harshly" questioned by the Spanish regarding Jesuit Wealth during the arrests in 1767.]

That's not true at all. I am very familiar with the Laymen and their roll in the work of the Jesuit priests in the New World.......and the rest of the world as well.

Being ["harshly" questioned] by the Spanish concerning mining or treasures has absolutely nothing to do with the factual truth of those subjects. After all, the Spanish soldiers were sent into the Jesuit cess-pools diving for evidence. As you know, the found......crap. :dontknow:

Much like the treasure hunters of today, they were obsessed with Jesuit treasure.

At one time I was just, like you, a firm believer in the legends. After 45 or so years of research, I weighed the accumulated solid evidence and found it to be a little/lot light......to be kind.

Despite our friend Don Jose's "find", after many years of telling his story, we are left with no evidence, that can be authenticated, concerning Jesuit treasure or mining.

I am reminded of the bare chested man holding the "Spanish" ingots. I believe the story was that he was afraid to get them authenticated because the government would end up with his find. It's not logical that he would have his picture taken with the "treasure" and not have the same fear.

Beyond that, there are a number of places, as you know, where one ingot could be taken and authenticated without government involvement. He did not need to expose his entire find.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

Well Joe,

I guess I have just been a little more fortunate than you in that I personally know people who have recovered Jesuit Wealth. Choose to believe or not, I am a firm believer not because of legends, but because of things I know for certain to be fact.

Your assertion regarding having gold bars authenticated without attracting government attention is not true at all. That is, if you are talking about my friend in Tucson.

As for Chuck Kenworthy's 1028 silver bars recovered in the 1990s, the hole is still there. Both Ron's and Chuck's caches are beyond a shadow of a doubt for me.

Also, why would ANYBODY publicly claim a Church Treasure, only to have it tied up in litigation for ten or twenty years, when you could sell it for spot gold price with no questions asked? Why would you even risk the chance of being found out and losing everything? See, the Church is an entity. Like you are an entity. Treasure Trove Laws favor the ORIGINAL OWNER over the FINDER, and the FINDER over the LANDOWNER. In most cases of Treasure Trove, the actual original owner is either unknown or long since dead. I think the Catholic Church and/or the Jesuit Order could effectively argue that anything hidden was hidden by the Jesuits as an arm of the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church today is effectively the same as the Catholic Church in 1767. Therefore, they are the entity that originally owned the treasure, and entitled to 100% ownership. I'm not an attorney, but I can easily understand that argument. I also think the Church would stand a much better than average chance of winning that suit. Would I publicize a find I knew to be Jesuit in origin? I doubt it.

Ask yourself this: Why would Kenworthy have 1028 silver bars made, then dig a hole in Southern Az. Tell a few people about it, but never have it publicized? No newspapers, no magazines, no television. NOTHING at the time. Does that really make any sense at all?

The other cache of gold bars is even more compelling. My friend did not have the werewithall to fake up $500,000 worth of fraudulent gold bars.

There is another cache I know of personally, but it is not DIRECTLY attributable to the Jesuit Order. It was in the vicinity of a Mission that was the subject of a lost treasure story, but it was all sacks of placer gold nuggets.

Best-Mike
 

Sorry Mike,

I don't have the same confidence those stories are true that you do. As I said, there was no good reason for your friend to have his picture taken with that loot, only to have it show up on the internet.

Selling that gold for the spot value of $500,000 puts your friend at risk, no matter who he is selling it to. How much do you figure those marked ingots would be worth sold to private collectors? Probably a bit more than $500,000.

People create fake artifacts every day. Some seem to have a good reason, others don't. Sometimes it's pure ego stroking sometimes it's to generate investors. At other times the people just have a screw loose.

I don't trust any story that comes through Chuck Kenworthy....period. That comes from what I have seen and what I believe he has lied about. As to why he would lie about treasure/ore that he took out of the Superstitions, you will need to explain why he would not put it in his book. Perhaps it's the same reason he lied about the King's Secret Code. :dontknow:

I tend to trust what people are not afraid to have authenticated. I distrust documents that have major mistakes in them, and for which the original is not available.......only a photocopy or photograph.

That's just me. Others, like you,have another opinion based on the evidence you have heard of or seen. As an example, you have also read Polzer's "Rules and Precepts", same as me. You believe it locked the Jesuits into total obedience, I know that was not how things worked in the Order.....from the beginning. Same book, different opinions on what it all means.

In any case, it's an interesting topic.

Take care,

Joe
 

Joe,

This is the United States of America and you are absolutely free to believe or disbelieve anything or anyone you want. You base your entire opinion of Kenworthy on one episode related to you by someone you trust. I base my faith in his word on the opinions of several people I know well who knew him VERY well.

As to how accurate your impression of him is: remember what we went back and forth about regarding his legal battles with the CIA and the Hughes Glomar Explorer? You said that you didn't believe that he was worth any appreciable money, and I said that he was a multimillionaire several times over. You didn't believe me until I provided the Penthouse Story that reiterated my position several times? Your opinion of the man was wrong then as it is now. Say what you like. I have unlimited access to a bunch of his research materials pertaining to California. I have the aerial photographs he took, I have Ground Penetrating Radar Scans that he hired Dr Lambert Dolphin to perform (I think at a rate of about $1100 per day plus airfare, food, and lodging). TOPOs, personal notes, etc are also included. I can tell you exactly how meticulous and professional the man was when it came to researching a given subject based on that material. I also know that those 118 or so pages of copies of original documents exist because my good friend was supposed to have gotten them after his death. Tiger (Chuck N) stepped in and grabbed those and has kept them to himself since.

Like I said, believe what you want if it doesn't fit in with what you want to believe. It's a free country. I just go where actual evidence takes me. I have been fortunate enough to have met several people who will never have to work again due to finding large caches of Spanish/Jesuit/American gold and/or silver. People that have absolutely no reason to lie. They never sought any publicity. Never sought investment monies. Some recovered theirs legally, others did not. I have seen a photograph of a man kneeling next to a stack of gold finger bars 3ft wide x 3ft tall x 6ft long (all approximate measurements). I have known the man several years (it took me two to see the picture). Believe what you like, just don't try and tell me that the Jesuits didn't possess massive wealth before their suppression. There is too much evidence from the pens of several Jesuit Fathers themselves that contradict you.

Best-Mike
 

Mike,

I think you may be reading some things into our conversations that I never actually wrote. It may be that I said that I "didn't believe that he was worth any appreciable money". I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever writing anything like that. I don't mind if you would like to post those exchanges.

"Believe what you like, just don't try and tell me that the Jesuits didn't possess massive wealth before their suppression."

My comments about the wealth of the Jesuit Order have been focused on the missions of Northern Mexico. Which of, or how many, of those missions show records of "massive wealth"? Many of those missions were doing very poorly in that era. Those original records still exist to this day.

I know you have complete faith in the truth of what you are writing. Not trying to dissuade you from that opinion. I am only giving you my opinion of what I believe to be the truth. The real truth may very well be somewhere in the middle.

I no longer have a dog in that fight, so I don't really care how it turns out. Just learning the history of the Society of Jesus has been worth the effort. Polzer's "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" were treated no differently than any of those that preceded them since the Order was formed. Circumstances and local conditions made the rules for the Jesuit missionaries.

Take care,

Joe
 

Snicker snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. If not from mines in the new world, where did their enormous wealth come from? Such as that which was found in South America in an old fort? Please don't talk to me of tithing..
 

Don Jose,

When pressed for evidence of Jesuit mining and treasure in Northern Mexico, it's always interesting to see how quickly the conversation gets moved to South America.

I have a few questions. If the Jesuits were not allowed to have any knowledge of mining, directly or indirectly, how could they teach mining in their schools? :icon_scratch:

If the evidence of their "massive wealth" is measured by the written descriptions of their churches and the valuable interiors, were they more or less wealthy than the Franciscans who followed them? Where did the wealth of the Franciscans come from, since tithings are not part of the picture for you? :dontknow:

Thanks in advance,

Joe
 

Don Jose,

I to would prefer to stick to the subject of Jesuit mining/treasure in Mexico. However, you did inject South America into the debate.

Even though you tend to ignore my questions, I will give you a possible answer to yours.

If, as a society, you had heard the rumors of Jesuit mining taking place at Tayopa......for hundreds of years, and yet had no belief that the rumors were true, wouldn't you be interested in any developments or stories that it had been found? :dontknow:

While you might not appreciate that answer, it is an answer. It holds as much weight as any other Tayopa story.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Don Jose,

When pressed for evidence of Jesuit mining and treasure in Northern Mexico, it's always interesting to see how quickly the conversation gets moved to South America.

I have a few questions. If the Jesuits were not allowed to have any knowledge of mining, directly or indirectly, how could they teach mining in their schools? :icon_scratch:

If the evidence of their "massive wealth" is measured by the written descriptions of their churches and the valuable interiors, were they more or less wealthy than the Franciscans who followed them? Where did the wealth of the Franciscans come from, since tithings are not part of the picture for you? :dontknow:

Thanks in advance,

Joe
Click to expand...


Joe Joe Joe,

I would think that since you just explained to me how you have had a copy of Father Polzer's Book in your possession for many years that you would not have had to ask some of those questions! You talk about the "wealth" of the Franciscans, but maybe you can show me evidence of that wealth during the Colonial Period?

Since you have had the book for so long you should have already seen the narrative of Father Don Pedro Tapis. Soon after he was Consecrated the Bishop of Durango in 1715, he set off on a tour of his Diocese. He was neither a Jesuit nor a Franciscan. Read these two pages (55-56) paying special attention to the highlighted areas.

Best-Mike
 

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evening Joe, one huge difference, I found Tayopa, and now own it. I also know where the main deposit of Tayopa is, and other deposits that they left behind. I have posted pictures of it, but never identifed it. he h e Also I have located a no. of the way stations that they used to leap frog precious metal across Northern Mexico to just below Matamorros for transshipment to Rome.

They can deny all that they wish, but I know what I have, and a lot of that I have never gone public with. What has been posted in here is just a small part. Until all of the permits arrive and the narco problem is cleaned up, it will remain that way, unposted.

Now about that steak diner-----

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. do you think that I would pay $ 5,000 + a year in Taxes if I wasn't sure?
 

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