cuzimloony
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I see........
LUE MAP CLUES
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point hunter
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I'm sure your correct. I just keep thinking about how Mr. Mueller spoke of "hundreds" I think was the word he used of arrows pointing in a southerly direction. Now that's not a correct direct quote but it's in TOVOS if I remember right. My frustration has always been whatever pre-LUE info of any sort seems to always start and end with him and his running buddies. As someone who has always enjoyed reading about something and then going out in the field and seeing it, I don't think in this case you can.
sdcfia
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A former TNet poster, Patrick Donnell, and his family, earnestly researched the LUE for years. They did much ground searching in the mountains in the Purgatoire River headwaters region. and elsewhere. Unfortunately Patrick is deceased and I can't remember his TNet ID. Did they locate any of the carvings? He had a lot to say in the forum threads, but I'm pretty sure he held back his best stuff.
I did save a couple emails from him back in 2002. Here are a couple of cryptic statements from those that were not explained any further:
" . . . As for the LUE. There are a lot of opinions on it. But, signs line up. Sites have been found. . . .
. . . The map itself is an enigma. But has been translated. Essentially, it is showing some mining and cache sites used by the Spaniard to get gold for the King and Church of Spain. The sites were originally traced back to the mining efforts of the Aztecs . . ."
I did save a couple emails from him back in 2002. Here are a couple of cryptic statements from those that were not explained any further:
" . . . As for the LUE. There are a lot of opinions on it. But, signs line up. Sites have been found. . . .
. . . The map itself is an enigma. But has been translated. Essentially, it is showing some mining and cache sites used by the Spaniard to get gold for the King and Church of Spain. The sites were originally traced back to the mining efforts of the Aztecs . . ."
sdcfia
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That activity also extends to many other "treasure sites". Here's a fresh one that appeared POOF! suddenly about ten years ago. Unfortunately, the opposite has also happened, as old man-made things have disappeared.
- #125
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I think his Tnet ID was PatrickD.
Sdc, I read Randy Bradford's latest book, The LUE Map, Treasure and Mystery, a few days ago. He included a Treasure World article from September 1970 (Vol. 4 No. 9), written by Xanthus Carson and titled Lost Sanchez Gold. There are a few names in the story that have been associated with possible LUE sites, Manzano, Mora and Las Vegas, all in New Mexico. I thought it was an excellent story and I'm glad that Randy included it in his book. Von Mueller had mentioned that people had searched for the LUE treasure, but under another name. Maybe the Sanchez gold was one of those.
sdcfia
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I might have to get that book. Those three sites are interesting from a broad LUE conspiracy point of view (KGC, old mines, Big Brother watching, etc). I'm not sure where Carson placed the Manzano target, but a couple old mining locations came up a while back re "Spanish mines" near Albuquerque in a TNet thread. Here's one of my posts https://www.treasurenet.com/threads...e-sandia-mountains.709829/page-3#post-7323067 . A short distance from Sandia Labs and Kirtland AFB, a very closely monitored area.
Mora? Interesting little old Hispanic mountain village. A 340,000 acre fire destroyed the town and surrounding country when a government "controlled burn went awry" in 2022. Ooops. Again. Nobody will be snooping around in those hills for years to come.
Las Vegas is about 30 miles south of Mora. I'd have to go find the reference (maybe the Black Book), but I believe Jesse James was alleged to have spent time there. Like Mora, this is in the general region where the Civil War battle of Glorieta Pass was a big defeat for the South.
- #127
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One of the Manzano locations was on the west slope of the Manzano Range, west of Tajique.
Randy organized a lot of articles about the LUE, but von Mueller kept his cards close to his vest.
sdcfia
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That's way south of those mines I mentioned. Thanks. Those Manzano Mountains are pretty wild and sparsely populated. I used to hike around in there some in the 80s. It wasn't too welcoming - lot of pot farmers in there.
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We gotta find that drawing that Boyd Jolley claims he saw at the Daughter’s of Utah Pioneers Museum Library.
Boyd (in Terry Carter’s phone interview) said Karl’s LUE Map was a stylized version of it, and suspected Karl made his version with the precise shapes and angles to enable the coincidental design elements of the dollar bills as well as the “folding” trickery. If Boyd’s testimony is correct this leads me to wonder if the IAYAYAM Key is Karl’s invention. Reason is that Karl noted his LUE Map as “reproduced exactly from the IAYAYAM key” instead of “reproduced exactly from the original drawing” that Boyd saw in the library archives.
Thoughts?
Boyd (in Terry Carter’s phone interview) said Karl’s LUE Map was a stylized version of it, and suspected Karl made his version with the precise shapes and angles to enable the coincidental design elements of the dollar bills as well as the “folding” trickery. If Boyd’s testimony is correct this leads me to wonder if the IAYAYAM Key is Karl’s invention. Reason is that Karl noted his LUE Map as “reproduced exactly from the IAYAYAM key” instead of “reproduced exactly from the original drawing” that Boyd saw in the library archives.
Thoughts?
sdcfia
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Miller was capable of stating anything that furthered his agenda.
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AI Overview
The Daughters of Utah Pioneers (DUP) has several museums with libraries across Utah, but the main one is the
Pioneer Memorial Museum in Salt Lake City. This museum is part of the International Society Daughters of Utah Pioneers (ISDUP) and features artifacts, exhibits, and extensive collections of historical materials, including books and manuscripts. Other DUP museums are located in cities like Logan, Beaver, and Pleasant Grove, each with its own local collections.
Pioneer Memorial Museum (Salt Lake City)
- Location: The headquarters of the DUP, located in Salt Lake City.
- Hours: Monday through Friday, 9 AM to 4:30 PM.
- Admission: Free.
- Collections: Includes a vast array of pioneer artifacts and documents, such as paintings, pioneer portraits, guns, quilts, flags, furniture, and books.
Other DUP Museums
- Logan: Features artifacts, exhibits, and histories of the early settlement of Logan and Cache County.
- Beaver: The Beaver County Courthouse houses a DUP museum.
- Pleasant Grove: The Old Bell School is home to a DUP museum.
Library and Collections
- The DUP's mission is to perpetuate the names and achievements of Utah's pioneers by preserving landmarks, marking historical places, and establishing a library.
- The DUP has published numerous multi-volume books, such as Heart Throbs of the West, Treasures of Pioneer History, and Our Pioneer Heritage, which are likely available at the various museum libraries.
- The University of Utah Libraries, Special Collections, also houses a significant collection of photographs donated by the DUP.
- #132
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The Daughters of the Utah Pioneers (DUP) operate the main Pioneer Memorial Museum in Salt Lake City and over 130 smaller satellite museums in Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Nevada, which are often housed in historical buildings like former schools or meetinghouses. The organization also maintains a significant collection of historical documents, including manuscript histories, and has display cases in libraries, such as the Idaho Falls Public Library, acting as a public resource for historical research.
Museums
- Pioneer Memorial Museum (Salt Lake City): The DUP's flagship museum, featuring six floors of exhibits with approximately 75,000 artifacts, including wagons, personal items, and a collection related to the railroad.
- Satellite Museums: A network of smaller museums in various locations, often located within historic buildings like the Old Bell School in Pleasant Grove or the Parowan Meetinghouse in Parowan.
- Other DUP Museums:
- Beaver County Courthouse (Beaver, Utah)
- Daughters of Utah Pioneers Museum (Ogden, Utah)
- Daughters of Utah Pioneers Museum (Logan, Utah)
- Thomas Sleight Cabin and Paris Tabernacle display (Paris, Idaho)
Libraries and archives
- Pioneer Memorial Museum (Salt Lake City): The museum serves as a research facility with extensive collections of manuscript histories and photographs.
- Display Cases: DUP artifacts are displayed in public libraries and Family History Centers, such as the Idaho Falls Public Library and the Family History Center in Idaho Falls.
- FamilySearch Library (Salt Lake City): While not a DUP museum, it is listed as a related library in the context of pioneer research, along with other institutions like the Church History Museum and the Utah State Historical Society.
Collections and research
- Artifacts: The DUP collections include a wide range of items from the 1847-1869 period, from pioneer-era tools and clothing to large objects like wagons and early fire engines.
- Manuscript Histories: The organization has collected a significant number of personal and family histories from early Utah settlers.
- Photographs: The DUP holds a large collection of photographs related to Utah's pioneer history.
- #133
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The main database is the Pioneer Database hosted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which contains information on nearly 61,000 individuals who traveled to the Salt Lake Valley between 1847 and 1868. Other resources include the International Society Daughters of Utah Pioneers (ISDUP) website, which lists historical markers and has other indexes. The Daughters of Utah Pioneers also have physical archives and published works that contain their historical records.
Key databases and indexes
- Pioneer Database: This is the primary digital resource containing data on individuals who traveled to the Salt Lake Valley between 1847 and 1868.
- ISDUP Pioneer Index: The Daughters of Utah Pioneers offer access to their own pioneer index, which can be found through the ISDUP website.
- Daughters of Utah Pioneers “History Card Index”: This is another card index that can be found through resources like the Provo Library.
- Mormon Migration Database: An index of immigrants from various missions, which includes image links to related primary sources.
Other historical resources
- Published works: The Daughters of Utah Pioneers have published a multivolume series of books containing pioneer histories and stories, such as Heart Throbs of the West and Our Pioneer Heritage.
- Archives and museums: Local chapters and museums, such as the main Pioneer Memorial Museum in Salt Lake City, house physical collections of artifacts, manuscripts, photographs, and histories.
- ISDUP website: The ISDUP website provides a searchable list of historical markers with photos and descriptions, which can be a valuable resource for finding information on specific locations and events.
- #134
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Looks like a large organization. For some reason, I thought there was one museum at Salt Lake City.
Ryano
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Thanks Mdog .. From what I gathered the Museum has seen a lot of growth over the last 25 years, multiple partnerships with universities, funding from private and Church donors.. so whatever Boyd Jolley said he saw in the museum library decades ago may have been scooped up and placed elsewhere.
I've been trawling through anything and everything they have digitized and put online these last few weeks but ... nothing. I've also been using Grok and ChatGPT image recognition feature to trawl through various digitized archives (Sante Fe, Bexar, PARES, etc) and have it looking for exact or similar matches, but ... nothing. I've contacted several professors of western Rock Art and included the two Valley of Secrets drawings related to the LUE (I avoided mentioning anything about "the LUE" and treasure, lol) and while one replied the "elements such as the wavy line, sun and rays were familiar enough-looking elements of aboriginal art" he said he doesn't recollect seeing them in field reports.. but he also acknowledged the vast theft of petroglyphs and Indian trade artifacts. Another professor said if those petroglyphs were still out there, especially in the areas around Sante Fe and Taos, they would've likely have been documented as the region has been combed over by academic surveys extensively. Basically - what we already know or suspected.
Now, there is at least one of the Valley of Secrets petroglyph drawings that does exist in the field.. I'll post it shortly.
Patrick never shared signs that led to the site, but he absolutely shared that he felt he had found a Bonafide location and posted pics of signs there. He even did a press release about it. Patrick's father was an avid LUE hunter and a friend of KvM's. I've seen many of their correspondences with one another.
Karl von Mueller indicated a copy of the map was with the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers, there is a possibility he was referring to a version of the map that was not directly associated with the LUE story as Karl indicated many times that the LUE is known by other names. To my knowledge there has never been any indication this is where he originally found the map. Karl did live in Salt Lake City for approximately 2 years in the late 1950s, but allegedly made his LUE recovery with Hammond in 1958. Karl himself wrote in TotVoS that he received the map with Hammond during a time that would have been more consistent with Karl's time living in Bellflower, CA.
The only other Utah connection anyone has made with the LUE is Stephen Shaffer who claimed the LUE was supposedly a part of the maps found in the Chicken Creek massacre sites, which are otherwise maps largely associated with the Lost Rhoades Mines. Stephen Shaffer was, to my knowledge, the first to share the "annotated version" of the LUE right here on Treasurenet. I feel Shaffer's conclusion and the annotated version are both profoundly false leads.
Correct, this is the Charles O. Burch book, "Trails to Spanish Treasure"...probably at this point the single most important clue to yet be discovered and would provide in my mind irreputable proof that the LUE was not purely a KvM creation, but would likely shed light onto the map and treasure's overall legitimacy.
I'd argue against that simply because if they were appearing after that point Karl would have had the foresight to publish photos instead of simple sketches. Maybe I'm reading, but if he's going to go to the trouble to fake evidence, he's going to fake it in the best way(s) possible.
I would agree, and have stated repeatedly, this is indeed the single most significant point of vulnerability to the entire LUE story. That doesn't make it false, it simply means researchers need to keep this in mind as they dig into the lore. It's also why my singular research focus to this particular story is solely on material that pre-dates the original 1964 publication of the map by Karl. Even a single reference would open some profound possibilities while giving the story some much needed escape from the singular source derivation of KvM.
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