I can't speak personally, but Karl wrote what amounts to very little information on this story over a 20 year period...if he was furthering an agenda he was doing it in a very poor fashion despite having the means (the NPG) to blow up the story with written details. Karl also missed the boat in promoting his agenda when he published THM 7 and could have easily filled pages with fact or fiction to promote both the LUE and the book. I can also tell you that Karl was sharing the same information with his good friends...Johnny Pounds, Michael Paul Henson, Paul Tainter, Milton Rose...lying to strangers to sell a book is one thing, lying to contemporaries in personal conversations is something else altogether different.
LUE MAP CLUES
- Thread starter mdog
- Start date
Somehow responding to my own post seems like bad form, but I thought I'd share exactly what has been written about the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers connection.
Boyd Jolley wrote the following, quoting a letter he had directly from KvM on the LUE. I've never seen the original letter and Boyd makes it clear he's changed names in the letter for publication. Keep in mind, this is Boyd's article (Treasure – June 1991), but he's quoting (allegedly, though I have no reason to doubt it) Karl.
Q1 "(In Salt Lake City, Utah, in) the archives of the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers, (you should) find a journal that has several entries relating to the map and a rough sketch of the map. (However, you should also be aware that permission may not be granted to use these historically valuable materials.) There is also a possibility that the Utah State Historical Society might have copies of the journals and be familiar with the LUE map.”
Later, in the telephone interview with Terry Carter dated 24 December 1996, Boyd indicated the following:
Q2 "In the meanwhile I corresponded with him [Karl von Mueller] and he told me to go to the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers and look up some information there which I did..."
Also in the same interview...
Q3 "TC: So you don’t know - do you know where the LUE map came from, where it was found or anything like that?
BJ: Well I think that was why von Mueller referred me to the Daughters of Utah Pioneers library because they had printed in one of their books one of the original sketches of it, then…
TC: Did you follow up on that or…?
BJ: Yeah I - I went in there and Xeroxed it - but it didn’t look… What it looked like to me is that von Muller had – well, he even said that he took that original sketch and had it prepared in a more graphic presentation.
TC: Ah.
BJ: Well it was his graphic presentation that matched that the dollar bills and things like that
TC: But, but the…
BJ: But the original sketch may have matched those things. But since in those days they didn’t have transparent overlays or anything like that…
TC: Um hmm.
BJ: I don’t know
TC: So it didn’t say - the Utah Daughters of the Pioneers didn’t say where it was found or – or anything about it, huh?
BJ: No it was still pretty much a mystery...."
So a few take aways:
1) Boyd indicates in the second quote that Karl told him to look something up and he did, but he reveals neither what to look up or what he found when he looked it up. It seems reasonable to surmise that the information he was told to look up was the journal. mentioned in the 1st quote. Knowing who's journal it was would be interesting, because I know of no regular Utah connection to the LUE. Context here would be crucial.
2) Boyd mentions Xeroxing the map, but also not seeming sure that what he copied was in fact the map. Again, the map version and the material in the journal might provide some significant contextual clues that could reveal other aspects of the LUE and how it might be related to other known treasure stories as Karl indicated it was.
3) Daughters of the Utah Pioneers would suggest the journal was from someone who was at some point a Utah resident, and an early one...it seems likely then that the journal came from someone who came to Utah and had previously been elsewhere. Given the proximity of New Mexico and Colorado to Utah, it is possible that a Utah native was writing about a treasure or mining endeavor in another region they previously resided in. This would explain why DotUP had the journal, but that the treasure was not specifically related to Utah.
4) Did Boyd only copy the map or did he also copy parts of the journal related to it that might have shed some light on individuals associated with it, general (or specific) location, origins of the map, etc. Even a page or two of background could provide limitless opportunities to further research and validate the treasure.
Karl worked briefly in Salt Lake during this time, after he started publishing the original NPG in from California 1954, but before he moved back to Nebraska and began publishing the Exanimo Express. Karl wrote a paper from Salt Lake called the Adventure Bulletin, but I'm not aware of any known copies of it save one which I have only seen briefly. It's possible Karl took the job as a government technical writer (his words) on a top-secret aeronautics project (again his words, but also consistent with what he was doing in California) as a pretext to learn more about the LUE by way of the DotUP. It could have also been a happy accident, but that seems too coincidental to me. It seems far more likely he took the job to do the researcher before moving back to CA, confirming with Hardrock Hammond, and then making their recovery at Black Lake in 1958.
Lots of speculation here...as always I welcome feedback and insights from my skeptical treasure hunting fraternity (Looking at you Steve).
Randy
- #143
Thread Owner
Excellent posts Randy. Thank you.
sdcfia
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Well, more great posts as usual Randy, thanks. Initial observations (subject to revision, as always):
1) If Jolley's claims are true, then the "LUE" may be based on information and sketches found in an historical journal in the archives of the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers, created by persons unknown.
2) Hardrock Hammond may have informed Charles Dean Miller about the journal in Utah, which contained specific information that allegedly led these two to a recovery in SW Arizona.
3) There may not be a single "LUE" treasure, but instead a series of caches described in the journal notes and sketches.
4) Miller allegedly edited the journal notes and sketches when he created the well-known "LUE Map" that he is credited with for releasing it to the public.
5) The "LUE Map dollar bill" relationship, if contained in the original journal material, would indicate that the journal material would date after 1935, when the pyramid, eye, seal, et al was added to the dollar's reverse side.
1934 US dollar reverse (left) , and 1935 (right).
6) If the journal material originated before 1935, then Miller fabricated the dollar bill relationship and possibly other graphics on the "LUE Map".
7) We still don't know when and by whom the "LUE" material originated. Bob Brewer's claims at the recent Moon Lake gathering credit the KGC, with one cache or perhaps all of the loot hidden in central Arizona. The 1935 date may fit this claim, but it's risky relying on any treasure hunter - even the famous ones, past and current - to give you the answers you want.
jhobbs1824
Greenie
Other than the first and last statements being true, the rest are false. I do enjoy watching others try though.
jhobbs1824
Greenie
The top "Peak" of the Pyramid is the viewing point "perspective" for seeing the shadow indicator being presented. The RUQ "eye" is telling you to watch for the "shadow marker" at its proper time (seasonal). Dang, this is more than I've typed in a long time. I don't claim to know everything about the LUE, but I've found it's location and figured out 95% of its symbology. More than most. I just kind of like watching "Other's" try to find it and share worthless research which really throws other THr's off the trail. Fun to watch. lol
- #147
Thread Owner
I don't see anything in the Superstitions related to the LUE. Important LUE locations are in NE Georgia, Brewer's place in Arkansas, central Texas and Socorro, NM. Also, Fort Knox.
- #148
Thread Owner
I'm looking for a book titled, Arizona's Cave of Gold written by Leonard J. Halliburton 1949. I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of it? Our library searched their network and found no information about the book or the author.
The book is listed in Von Mueller's book, The Journals of El Dorado, page 137. Here is the comment that Von Mueller wrote about the book. " Personal narrative of the author's successful search for a Spanish depository. It seems there are some inconsistencies in the book and that perhaps he was in the Culebra Range of Colorado and New Mexico instead of Arizona and Old Mexico, and that the San Francisco Peak referred to is the one near the Colorado-New Mexico state line."
The book is 48 pages with maps and sketches.
I thought Von Mueller's comment seemed strange and when he mentioned the Culebra Range, I immediately thought of the Treasure of the Valley of Secrets and the LUE map. In Treasure of the Valley of Secrets, he mentions a "cave of gold" in the Monument Valley region of southern Utah, not in Arizona but right by the Utah-Arizona state line. Also, the "cave of gold" in the Valley of Secrets, is in the Culebra Range. I was wondering what he read that inspired his comment. I would also like to see the maps and sketches in the book.
Has anybody ever seen this book?
The book is listed in Von Mueller's book, The Journals of El Dorado, page 137. Here is the comment that Von Mueller wrote about the book. " Personal narrative of the author's successful search for a Spanish depository. It seems there are some inconsistencies in the book and that perhaps he was in the Culebra Range of Colorado and New Mexico instead of Arizona and Old Mexico, and that the San Francisco Peak referred to is the one near the Colorado-New Mexico state line."
The book is 48 pages with maps and sketches.
I thought Von Mueller's comment seemed strange and when he mentioned the Culebra Range, I immediately thought of the Treasure of the Valley of Secrets and the LUE map. In Treasure of the Valley of Secrets, he mentions a "cave of gold" in the Monument Valley region of southern Utah, not in Arizona but right by the Utah-Arizona state line. Also, the "cave of gold" in the Valley of Secrets, is in the Culebra Range. I was wondering what he read that inspired his comment. I would also like to see the maps and sketches in the book.
Has anybody ever seen this book?
- #149
Thread Owner
I'm always looking for evidence that will show a link between the LUE map and the Kensington Runestone. Here is a map that might explain the placement of the Kensington Runestone.
At the east end of the yellow line is Montvale, Virginia. That town is associated with the Beale treasure legend, a legend that some consider a Masonic inspired hoax. Two red lines go north and south from Montvale. The southern line stops at the southernmost point of mainland Florida. The northern line stops at the same latitude as the Kensington Runestone, on the eastern border of the United States. The red lines are the same length, 847 miles. To determine the site of the runestone, mark the runestone's latitude on the east and west boundaries of the United States and record the longitudes at both points. Subtract the east longitude from the west longitude, divide by 2 and add that result to the longitude of the eastern boundary. The center point is 10 miles west of the runestone's location or 12 minutes of longitude, within the margin of error for calculating longitude in the 19th century.
In the southern part of the United States, the base of the pyramid starts on the east coast at the same latitude as the Great Pyramid of Gaza in Egypt, that seems fitting. The center point is 10 miles west of the town of Center Point, Texas.
Here is something that you might find interesting. The latitude of the runestone, in degrees and minutes, is 45 deg 48'. The latitude of the Great Pyramid is 29 deg 58'. Halfway between these two, is the latitude of 37 deg 53', this is the latitude of the bullion depository at Fort Knox. Fort Knox is on the yellow line and is mentioned by Karl von Mueller in his caption under the LUE map.
At the east end of the yellow line is Montvale, Virginia. That town is associated with the Beale treasure legend, a legend that some consider a Masonic inspired hoax. Two red lines go north and south from Montvale. The southern line stops at the southernmost point of mainland Florida. The northern line stops at the same latitude as the Kensington Runestone, on the eastern border of the United States. The red lines are the same length, 847 miles. To determine the site of the runestone, mark the runestone's latitude on the east and west boundaries of the United States and record the longitudes at both points. Subtract the east longitude from the west longitude, divide by 2 and add that result to the longitude of the eastern boundary. The center point is 10 miles west of the runestone's location or 12 minutes of longitude, within the margin of error for calculating longitude in the 19th century.
In the southern part of the United States, the base of the pyramid starts on the east coast at the same latitude as the Great Pyramid of Gaza in Egypt, that seems fitting. The center point is 10 miles west of the town of Center Point, Texas.
Here is something that you might find interesting. The latitude of the runestone, in degrees and minutes, is 45 deg 48'. The latitude of the Great Pyramid is 29 deg 58'. Halfway between these two, is the latitude of 37 deg 53', this is the latitude of the bullion depository at Fort Knox. Fort Knox is on the yellow line and is mentioned by Karl von Mueller in his caption under the LUE map.
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