The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[Randawg72]

The same source showing Kidds name on a sea chest. Palmer.

So your answer is that your source is Hubert Palmer? No surprise furniture expert's analysis on the style, construction, hardware, or brasses used on the bureau?, no forensic tests on the materials or radiocarbon dating?
Hubert Palmer believed the desk was authentic. He also had the wax, ink, and parchment scientifically tested by the British Museum to confirm their 17th century origin.

Are you convinced the pictured bureau is 1600's? If it's civil war era it is lucky. Gone to sea I doubt it would have made it that far before Madagascar.. And was the furniture English as the Adventure Galley was?
Legs look fine. No bolt holes. For being a sea in the 1600's it is in remarkable condition.
Ship must have never encountered careening or rough weather?

Did Palmer elaborate how the furniture made it from Madagascar?
And if I was tasked with stripping the ship before scuttling it after the hull rotted out ; and affixing postage to the furniture to send to Palmer (?) I might rather have nabbed the silver.

Captain Kidd had a full time carpenter on board. He didn't have to bring any chests or furnishings from home. He could also have had repairs done to wooden objects (or secret alterations added) while at sea.
Kidd transferred the entire cargo and 34 cannon to the Quedagh Merchant before scuttling the Adventure. A few light furnishings would have been no problem. Sorry, but just because you post outrageous statements on an online forum it doesn't make them true.

 

[Bocaj]

Some additional info on the furniture and maps:

Did William Kidd find Henry Avery's treasure?

I return in 2 weeks for underwater hunting with permits!! A dream come true !

www.treasurenet.com

 

[releventchair]

So your answer is that your source is Hubert Palmer? No surprise furniture expert's analysis on the style, construction, hardware, or brasses used on the bureau?, no forensic tests on the materials or radiocarbon dating?
Hubert Palmer believed the desk was authentic. He also had the wax, ink, and parchment scientifically tested by the British Museum to confirm their 17th century origin.



Captain Kidd had a full time carpenter on board. He didn't have to bring any chests or furnishings from home. He could also have had repairs done to wooden objects (or secret alterations added) while at sea.
Kidd transferred the entire cargo and 34 cannon to the Quedagh Merchant before scuttling the Adventure. A few light furnishings would have been no problem. Sorry, but just because you post outrageous statements on an online forum it doesn't make them true.

Post away your appraisal of the furniture .
And how Palmer acquired it from it's last connection to the ships Madagascar location.
Early 1970's had that kind of hardware if you're trying to convince me it's 1600's.. Far from England where the ship was built and far distant in time.
A personal effects chest on end doesn't swell shut like drawers. And reduces the need for space just to hide charts in furniture. And for portability wins every time. Only takes a piece of veneer to add a false bottom. Or a false top top above a top partitioned with a door already.

Like Palmers Kidd chest I.D.'d as Kidds chest , why advertise in an era where your ship being boarded and searched should the wrong enemy be encountered result in Captain quarters and possessions being targeted?
You join the parade abandoning ship toting a chest with Kidd on it? Alright.
Even if you had a subordinate transport it it still had Kidd on it garishly.
Who has a desk aboard? And why wouldn't one be subject to scrutiny y those who Kidd would do wrong if they took possession of his ship?
No one else hid stuff ? No one smuggled during wartime prior? No other Pirates hid secrets?

Were I to declare Laffite traveled exclusively with a secretary desk and it was salvaged from the site of his ships sinking and lovingly restored would you believe I found a chart hidden in it?

Anyways. Have you concluded the hows and whys of hiding a chart in a desk?
Unless you find a 1600's climate controlled cabin you are asking a lot of Palmers desk.
And with the ship known before and as it was scuttled; extracting the desk and gaining possession of the desk as well as getting it to Palmer all need attending . There were party members about and only Kidd knew of the desks importance? Everyone just waved as it left? By whos permission? Kidd's?
IF you can show Kidd took it ashore then let's trace it's transfer from his abode in Madagascar to Palmer.
I'd rather just the chart as it's more portable but Palmer needed a story to create some provenance. And what better than a personal piece of Kidds furniture.
( If the other pictured item of a chest with Kidds name on it predominantly wasn't shown ; it would look less a con. Hey ; Palmer was "selling" it.)

How about a George Washington knife or two if I "find" them in an old desk?

 

[Bocaj]

Post away your appraisal of the furniture .
And how Palmer acquired it from it's last connection to the ships Madagascar location.
Early 1970's had that kind of hardware if you're trying to convince me it's 1600's.. Far from England where the ship was built and far distant in time.
A personal effects chest on end doesn't swell shut like drawers. And reduces the need for space just to hide charts in furniture. And for portability wins every time. Only takes a piece of veneer to add a false bottom. Or a false top top above a top partitioned with a door already.

Like Palmers Kidd chest I.D.'d as Kidds chest , why advertise in an era where your ship being boarded and searched should the wrong enemy be encountered result in Captain quarters and possessions being targeted?
You join the parade abandoning ship toting a chest with Kidd on it? Alright.
Even if you had a subordinate transport it it still had Kidd on it garishly.
Who has a desk aboard? And why wouldn't one be subject to scrutiny y those who Kidd would do wrong if they took possession of his ship?
No one else hid stuff ? No one smuggled during wartime prior? No other Pirates hid secrets?

Were I to declare Laffite traveled exclusively with a secretary desk and it was salvaged from the site of his ships sinking and lovingly restored would you believe I found a chart hidden in it?
View attachment 2215268





Anyways. Have you concluded the hows and whys of hiding a chart in a desk?
Unless you find a 1600's climate controlled cabin you are asking a lot of Palmers desk.
And with the ship known before and as it was scuttled; extracting the desk and gaining possession of the desk as well as getting it to Palmer all need attending . There were party members about and only Kidd knew of the desks importance? Everyone just waved as it left? By whos permission? Kidd's?
IF you can show Kidd took it ashore then let's trace it's transfer from his abode in Madagascar to Palmer.
I'd rather just the chart as it's more portable but Palmer needed a story to create some provenance. And what better than a personal piece of Kidds furniture.
( If the other pictured item of a chest with Kidds name on it predominantly wasn't shown ; it would look less a con. Hey ; Palmer was "selling" it.)

How about a George Washington knife or two if I "find" them in an old desk?
View attachment 2215269

This is what we have, maybe somewhere there are some better pics around...

Can you find some expert who can tell if this is from 1696 or from 1740?

As I wrote in tho above link it there are many explanations apart from it not being authentic. It has a plate mounted with "Captain William Kidd Adventure Galley 1669". This doesn't necessarily mean it was on board of the ship or it was even owned by him. Maybe it was owned by his wife who kept all related documents to his voyage in it and that explains the text. And the map as it says "Of me Sarah W".

Its just one idea I am sure I can find infinite others that could explain it without calling it a hoax. There is no documented evidence of an bad intend. Just one! expert that claims it must be from 1740s or later and even that just proves that the piece can't come from the ship but nothing else!

 

[releventchair]

Palmer finds multiple charts in multiple furnitures' alleged to have been Kidd's? Guy was either on a roll or helping things turn up.

[The date. 1809, with the pirate flag, wrought in silver, probably was part of the identification added by the boatswain, or some other sailor, during some long voyage, after Kidd had become notorious through his hanging at Executtion Dock. London. Tt is possible tbat this is one of the chests in which Kidd brought back to America the gold, silver and jewels he took out of the prizes be captured on his fateful privateering expedition. When Kidd approached New York he was in command of a small sloop, the Antonio, which he had bought in the W'est Indies, He bad -reached Mona Island, off the coast of Porto Rico, in his prize, the Quedab Merchant, but of his crew deserted Above: "Captain Kidd resisting the him when it was learned that he had been proclaimed A pirate.]

No authority was as clever as Palmer regarding hidden compartments?
After prior mentions of things leaving the ship as directed by Kidd we see evidence of more valuable stuff.

("A bundle of quilts" . Now why would Kidd be offing such? But then no explanation for the young slaves offed earlier either. And when pirates visited agreeable governors what was exchanged? Think plunder being fenced.)

[It was then, according the affidavit, that Kidd turned over to Gardiner to hold for him chest, and a bor of gold, and' a bundle of quilts and four bayles of goods." Gardiner took all this loot ashore. It was Kidd's plan to leave this portion of the treasure with Gardiner and return to claim it in CARE he should need ready money after meeting with Governor Bellamont. Gardiner adds that Kidd's meu delivered to him on the island two bags of silver, weighing 30 pounds, "a small bundle of gold, and gold dust of about 8 pound weight, to keep for him, aud did also present the narrator with a Rash and a pair of worsted stockings. And just before the sloop sayled Captarn Kidd presented the narrator with bagg of abgar, and then tooke leave and for Boston." Poor Kidd never returned from Joston to claim bis treasure. It was to Lord Bellamont's political advautage to get him ont of the way, SO he was taken to England illegally, there being 'no provision for capital punishment for piracy In New England, aud railroaded to the gallows.

Governor Bellamont aprake of Kidd's having "buried" some treasure on Gardinar's Jaland, but adds that John Gardiner delivered all this treas ure very promptly, upon demand of the governor.]

But Kidd (per article lack of mention anyways.)didn't offload furniture in New England.

The Houston Post from Houston, Texas

Get this The Houston Post page for free from Sunday, July 6, 1930 MAGAZINE SECTION. Houston Post-Dispatch SUNDAY, JULY 6, 1930 PIRATES AHOY!. Edition of The Houston Post

www.bing.com

 

[Cryptid1990]

Palmer finds multiple charts in multiple furnitures' alleged to have been Kidd's? Guy was either on a roll or helping things turn up.

[The date. 1809, with the pirate flag, wrought in silver, probably was part of the identification added by the boatswain, or some other sailor, during some long voyage, after Kidd had become notorious through his hanging at Executtion Dock. London. Tt is possible tbat this is one of the chests in which Kidd brought back to America the gold, silver and jewels he took out of the prizes be captured on his fateful privateering expedition. When Kidd approached New York he was in command of a small sloop, the Antonio, which he had bought in the W'est Indies, He bad -reached Mona Island, off the coast of Porto Rico, in his prize, the Quedab Merchant, but of his crew deserted Above: "Captain Kidd resisting the him when it was learned that he had been proclaimed A pirate.]

No authority was as clever as Palmer regarding hidden compartments?
After prior mentions of things leaving the ship as directed by Kidd we see evidence of more valuable stuff.

("A bundle of quilts" . Now why would Kidd be offing such? But then no explanation for the young slaves offed earlier either. And when pirates visited agreeable governors what was exchanged? Think plunder being fenced.)

[It was then, according the affidavit, that Kidd turned over to Gardiner to hold for him chest, and a bor of gold, and' a bundle of quilts and four bayles of goods." Gardiner took all this loot ashore. It was Kidd's plan to leave this portion of the treasure with Gardiner and return to claim it in CARE he should need ready money after meeting with Governor Bellamont. Gardiner adds that Kidd's meu delivered to him on the island two bags of silver, weighing 30 pounds, "a small bundle of gold, and gold dust of about 8 pound weight, to keep for him, aud did also present the narrator with a Rash and a pair of worsted stockings. And just before the sloop sayled Captarn Kidd presented the narrator with bagg of abgar, and then tooke leave and for Boston." Poor Kidd never returned from Joston to claim bis treasure. It was to Lord Bellamont's political advautage to get him ont of the way, SO he was taken to England illegally, there being 'no provision for capital punishment for piracy In New England, aud railroaded to the gallows.

Governor Bellamont aprake of Kidd's having "buried" some treasure on Gardinar's Jaland, but adds that John Gardiner delivered all this treas ure very promptly, upon demand of the governor.]

But Kidd (per article lack of mention anyways.)didn't offload furniture in New England.

The Houston Post from Houston, Texas

Get this The Houston Post page for free from Sunday, July 6, 1930 MAGAZINE SECTION. Houston Post-Dispatch SUNDAY, JULY 6, 1930 PIRATES AHOY!. Edition of The Houston Post

www.bing.com

Palmer did not himself discover any of the maps; he bought the furniture pieces already knowing the maps were inside (with the exception of one, but even then he was in the presence of Arthur Hill Cutler, who likely guided him to it). The furniture pieces were sold to Palmer by Cutler, with the knowledge the objects contained the maps. None of the maps had verifiable owners prior to Mr. Cutler and we know at least one of the persons (Pamela Hardy) he claimed sold him the Hardy Chest never existed (she was made up to fabricate a pedigree note the chest was sold with). He was obviously the hoaxer. As has also been pointed out, the chests, of dubious provenance all showed up around the same time in Mr. Cutler's antique shop during the UK Great Depression (1929-1933) and Cutler also sold many other items of dubious provenance at auctions including fake Lord Nelson objects.

The misunderstanding Palmer discovered the maps himself traces back to Anthony Howlett's article "The Mystery of Captain Kidd's Treasure" (1958). Unfortunately, his incorrect account was uncritically copied and popularised by George Edmunds (Kidd: The Search for his Treasure, 1996). If you instead read Wilkins (1935), he does not say Palmer discovered the maps but acquired them from Mr. Cutler knowing the maps were already discovered inside the furniture pieces (excluding only one he found while in Cutler's shop) and we know Wilkins' version of events is correct based on private letters Palmer sent Wilkins when he was alive (these can be read in G. J. Bath's books).

 

[releventchair]

Palmer did not himself discover any of the maps; he bought the furniture pieces already knowing the maps were inside (with the exception of one, but even then he was in the presence of Arthur Hill Cutler, who likely guided him to it). The furniture pieces were sold to Palmer by Cutler, with the knowledge the objects contained the maps. None of the maps had verifiable owners prior to Mr. Cutler and we know at least one of the persons (Pamela Hardy) he claimed sold him the Hardy Chest never existed (she was made up to fabricate a pedigree note the chest was sold with). He was obviously the hoaxer. As has also been pointed out, the chests, of dubious provenance all showed up around the same time in Mr. Cutler's antique shop during the UK Great Depression (1929-1933) and Cutler also sold many other items of dubious provenance at auctions including fake Lord Nelson objects.

The misunderstanding Palmer discovered the maps himself traces back to Anthony Howlett's article "The Mystery of Captain Kidd's Treasure" (1958). Unfortunately, his incorrect account was uncritically copied and popularised by George Edmunds (Kidd: The Search for his Treasure, 1996). If you instead read Wilkins (1935), he does not say Palmer discovered the maps but acquired them from Mr. Cutler knowing the maps were already discovered inside the furniture pieces (excluding only one he found while in Cutler's shop) and we know Wilkins' version of events is correct based on private letters Palmer sent Wilkins when he was alive (these can be read in G. J. Bath's books).

Captain Kidd Treasure Maps: The Reality

Captain Kidd Maps

www.gjbath.com

 

[Bocaj]

Palmer did not himself discover any of the maps; he bought the furniture pieces already knowing the maps were inside (with the exception of one, but even then he was in the presence of Arthur Hill Cutler, who likely guided him to it). The furniture pieces were sold to Palmer by Cutler, with the knowledge the objects contained the maps. None of the maps had verifiable owners prior to Mr. Cutler and we know at least one of the persons (Pamela Hardy) he claimed sold him the Hardy Chest never existed (she was made up to fabricate a pedigree note the chest was sold with). He was obviously the hoaxer. As has also been pointed out, the chests, of dubious provenance all showed up around the same time in Mr. Cutler's antique shop during the UK Great Depression (1929-1933) and Cutler also sold many other items of dubious provenance at auctions including fake Lord Nelson objects.

The misunderstanding Palmer discovered the maps himself traces back to Anthony Howlett's article "The Mystery of Captain Kidd's Treasure" (1958). Unfortunately, his incorrect account was uncritically copied and popularised by George Edmunds (Kidd: The Search for his Treasure, 1996). If you instead read Wilkins (1935), he does not say Palmer discovered the maps but acquired them from Mr. Cutler knowing the maps were already discovered inside the furniture pieces (excluding only one he found while in Cutler's shop) and we know Wilkins' version of events is correct based on private letters Palmer sent Wilkins when he was alive (these can be read in G. J. Bath's books).

Is there an approximation on how much money Cutler made of Palmer?

 

[Randawg72]

Early 1970's had that kind of hardware if you're trying to convince me it's 1600's.. Far from England where the ship was built and far distant in time.

So you are an expert on 17th century furniture? Could you please share your credentials?

Like Palmers Kidd chest I.D.'d as Kidds chest , why advertise in an era where your ship being boarded and searched should the wrong enemy be encountered result in Captain quarters and possessions being targeted?

So your saying that a secret compartment not discovered for 240+ years was not secure enough and would have been easily found?

Who has a desk aboard?

Common practice for all sea captains of the period.

And why wouldn't one be subject to scrutiny y those who Kidd would do wrong if they took possession of his ship?

Before his arrest, who took possession of Kidd's ship?

Anyways. Have you concluded the hows and whys of hiding a chart in a desk?
Unless you find a 1600's climate controlled cabin you are asking a lot of Palmers desk.

Can you name a better place he should have hidden it?

And with the ship known before and as it was scuttled; extracting the desk and gaining possession of the desk as well as getting it to Palmer all need attending . There were party members about and only Kidd knew of the desks importance? Everyone just waved as it left? By whos permission? Kidd's?
IF you can show Kidd took it ashore then let's trace it's transfer from his abode in Madagascar to Palmer.
( If the other pictured item of a chest with Kidds name on it predominantly wasn't shown ; it would look less a con. Hey ; Palmer was "selling" it.)

Kidd stripped his ship of hardware, hinges and other scrap iron. Why would he leave his desk behind?
The bureau didn't have significant importance until the chart was found by Palmer in 1929.
Also, the desk in the picture you attached is not Kidd's, and Palmer never sold the bureau. He kept it until his death in 1949.
Your theories are full of holes, and you need to stop presenting them as facts.

 

[releventchair]

So you are an expert on 17th century furniture? Could you please share your credentials?

So your saying that a secret compartment not discovered for 240+ years was not secure enough and would have been easily found?

Common practice for all sea captains of the period.

Before his arrest, who took possession of Kidd's ship?

Can you name a better place he should have hidden it?

Kidd stripped his ship of hardware, hinges and other scrap iron. Why would he leave his desk behind?
The bureau didn't have significant importance until the chart was found by Palmer in 1929.
Also, the desk in the picture you attached is not Kidd's, and Palmer never sold the bureau. He kept it until his death in 1949.
Your theories are full of holes, and you need to stop presenting them as facts.

My theories Vs yours?

I stated that IF I presented a secretary (the picture I posted) and claimed it was Lafitte's. But of course you are not reading but rather ranting instead.
Being it (the secretary I presented) is nearly new as in modern how about you study the hardware , construction, and location of manufacture vs Palmers.


Feel free to post any Kidd treasure you recover. Or how the not stripped (as you claim Kidd stripped it ) secretary of Palmers ended up in an England collectors hands.
Based on your posts attitude ; neither will occur.

Why would Kidd leave it? Being arrested didn't mean he wore a tether and could revisit his ship.

Per Richards account.
[When Kidd arrived in New York, he was arrested, but would not reveal the location of Adventure Prize, believing that the treasure aboard the ship could be used as barter to free him.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quedagh_Merchant#cite_note-zacks253-30"><span>[</span>30<span>]</span></a> Bellomont tried to get together two ships, one of which was St. Antonio, to sail back to the Caribbean to retrieve what was left of Kidd's loot.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quedagh_Merchant#cite_note-zacks258-31"><span>[</span>31<span>]</span></a> As the planning stage for this voyage was nearly completed, a sloop arrived in New York, claiming that the merchants aboard Adventure Prize had sold off most of the goods, set fire to the ship, and left the Caribbean to sail to Holland.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quedagh_Merchant#cite_note-zacks258-31"><span>[</span>31<span>]</span></a> After hearing this news, Bellomont approved Captain Nathaniel Cary, aboard St. Antonio, to return to the Caribbean to verify that the ship was indeed burned off the coast of Hispaniola, and attempt to reclaim the cargo from the local governments, including Curaçao.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quedagh_Merchant#cite_note-zacks266-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quedagh_Merchant#cite_note-zacks258-31"><span>[</span>31<span>]</span></a> According to local records, the men Kidd entrusted with his ship reportedly looted it, and then set it ablaze and adrift down the Rio Dulce.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quedagh_Merchant#cite_note-sciencedaily-32"><span>[</span>32<span>]</span></a>]

So the Adventure Galley and the Quedah are toast. But Kidd still hauls the same secretary desk from the first ship to a second ship and then a third ship? Maybe the desk should be named Lucky?
Imprisoned ; Kidd didn't get to haul his beloved secretary from the Antonio.
Now the secretary has to travel not from Madagascar to London as I suggested from an earlier ship being scuttled.
But from America (New York) to London England for a collector to have to transfer to Palmer..
Who in America shipped it to London in 1701 or later?
Wasn't the antiques business operated in reverse?( America was young to be producing antiques thus antique traffic flowed from England to the colonies. As for centuries after.)
Ships returning from America certainly wanted to haul cargo.
But a well traveled secretary IF it survived those years at sea?

Flour and bread were exported from N.Y.
Given the time to return to England flour after reasonable bread lifespan would be less bulk that a desk.
Who knows ;maybe hardtack was offered.

5. Colonial America in the Eighteenth Century, 1701–1770

Ship salvage includes furniture?

Ship Journey: 1657 - Prince Maurice (du Prins Maurits) - wrecked on Long Island | Mapping Early New York: Encyclopedia

William and Mary/Baroque gained traction around the late 1600's to early 1700's.
Now there's no telling individual taste. Or was Kidds less enthused craftsmanship's old school of carpentry of his olde secretary really that lucky?
I feel confident you'll demand proof but I suspect Kidd could afford to acquire a new secretary if he so desired. At least after wearing out a couple ships.
Was he ignorant of current furniture styles? Part of plundering new cargos involved current availability and effect of modern influence. Too as a visitor to multiple sites and regions and governors ect. he wasn't isolated in a bubble of an old ship either. ( Even if he hadn't gone through ships like a leadfooted teenager dad hotrods in some instances).

N.Y. to London then went the old secretary having been removed from the ship and taken to (?). Deliberately ; to get involved in the furniture collections of pirate buffs. That being where it ended up. Doubly.
Coincidently containing the 3rd or 4th map acquired by Palmer from varied sea chests and a wooden "box". (?). ( And being the one he from said secretary style piece of furniture by his own hand. )
All maps so assembled in unison and residing in yee merry olde England as spell under the countenance of one Palmer until he croaked. Oddly before his pirate interests steered him to follow the assembled from furniture maps to Kidds treasures' (?).

An ambitious project this gathering of lucky sea furniture's containing Kidd charts without utilizing them to leverage a bit of hidden loot. even by proxy.
Instead the charts were where post Palmer death?
Palmer must have breathed a last miraculous breath upon the collection of charts as they became upon his death in 1949; MAPS.
Maps hidden in what furniture or under a roof tile or garden path slate? Or the hollow of a fellow treasure hunters wooden leg?
No. They were rather in the properly executed hands of Palmers housekeeper. What a let down in the romance of pirate lore..

But avast! Lizzie fearing no accusation of impropriety made hast to the museum and encountered the map expertise of none other than one R.E. Skelton!
Who thank goodness for our stories sake declared then not only maps , but genuine 17th century charts. (Dang it now they're charts again.)
Alas after not recovering any Kidd loot Lizzie in one account sells the maps (we're maps again now) to "an Englishman" who moved to Canada. Unfortunately we have no mention of what the secretary/furniture he shipped looked like .) To being inquired of by no less than an Oak Island Money Pit character( Furneaux ) before they fade into disappearance again. Perhaps in someone's furniture? Do we know what Furneuax's secretary/furniture looked like?

Another account (shh don't call them stories) has them sold at auction in 1957.

The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

I have a great interest in the treasure "Lodged" by Captain Kidd. I believe the treasure exists, and that the "Kidd/Palmer" charts are authentic, and I do Not believe the treasure is located anywhere near the America's nor the China Sea. I may (or may not) have solved some of the clues in this...

www.treasurenet.com

 

[Randawg72]

Palmer did not himself discover any of the maps; he bought the furniture pieces already knowing the maps were inside (with the exception of one, but even then he was in the presence of Arthur Hill Cutler, who likely guided him to it).

Alas you circle back yet again to the biggest liar and fraud in the Kidd saga, the infamous Harold T Wilkins. The guy who drew and published his own fake treasure maps attributing them to William Kidd. I guess it all depends on who you are willing to believe isn't it?
For those interested in the Edmunds narrative, I think a brief synopsis deserves equal time on this thread. Readers are free to draw their own conclusions.
Palmer discovered the first chart one day while using the bureau. One of the runners supporting the lid broke off revealing the words "William Kidd, his chest" impressed on one end in wax was the insignia of the foul anchor. He carefully broke the wax seal, inside was a brass tube wrapped with a small piece of parchment vellum. He called his brother, Guy and they carefully unrolled the parchment revealing the first of the Kidd charts.
When he acquired the Hardy Chest, he gave it a thorough examination. He noticed that some of the nails securing the bottom were actually screws. Removing them revealed a false bottom, and there he found the Carolus Redux sermon book dated May 29, 1662, and behind the book was the second Kidd chart.
The Morgan Chest had an obvious false bottom with a plaster skull and book "knob" to facilitate removal. On the backside was a small mirror. On removing the beading the mirror slid out and Palmer cut away the cloth covering underneath revealing the 3rd Kidd chart.
When Palmer acquired the Sara Kidd Workbox, he measured the inside and outside dimensions revealing that the box must have a secret compartment. He removed the four nails securing the trim beading at the bottom edge revealing a narrow cavity. Probing inside he removed a small piece of leather binding. On the back was an oblong piece of yellow parchment. This was the fourth Kidd chart.

 

[releventchair]

Alas you circle back yet again to the biggest liar and fraud in the Kidd saga, the infamous Harold T Wilkins. The guy who drew and published his own fake treasure maps attributing them to William Kidd. I guess it all depends on who you are willing to believe isn't it?
For those interested in the Edmunds narrative, I think a brief synopsis deserves equal time on this thread. Readers are free to draw their own conclusions.
Palmer discovered the first chart one day while using the bureau. One of the runners supporting the lid broke off revealing the words "William Kidd, his chest" impressed on one end in wax was the insignia of the foul anchor. He carefully broke the wax seal, inside was a brass tube wrapped with a small piece of parchment vellum. He called his brother, Guy and they carefully unrolled the parchment revealing the first of the Kidd charts.
When he acquired the Hardy Chest, he gave it a thorough examination. He noticed that some of the nails securing the bottom were actually screws. Removing them revealed a false bottom, and there he found the Carolus Redux sermon book dated May 29, 1662, and behind the book was the second Kidd chart.
The Morgan Chest had an obvious false bottom with a plaster skull and book "knob" to facilitate removal. On the backside was a small mirror. On removing the beading the mirror slid out and Palmer cut away the cloth covering underneath revealing the 3rd Kidd chart.
When Palmer acquired the Sara Kidd Workbox, he measured the inside and outside dimensions revealing that the box must have a secret compartment. He removed the four nails securing the trim beading at the bottom edge revealing a narrow cavity. Probing inside he removed a small piece of leather binding. On the back was an oblong piece of yellow parchment. This was the fourth Kidd chart.

How piratey! A skull! And a bonus book knob. No one rifling the chest would notice that. VS a plain false bottom. C'mon.
While Kidd did not declare himself a pirate why not associate a skull with him; to not implicate him?
Plaster skull. Book/knob. Impervious to moisture of course.



Highlight actual facts pertaining to Kidd.
It will take you pre-Palmer stories.
More it will provide different insight into sites. No furniture ; or coincidental multiple secret hidden charts required.

Did Kidd take the furniture everywhere he went?
Nothing indicates he trusted anyone with it. In an industry in which death or mutiny were not unheard of. Or theft.
Or being arrested for real or perceived doings.
But hide charts...If not for someone else was Kidd afraid of forgetting where loot was concealed?
The last accounts of time spent with him didn't indicate such.
If not for Palmer would multiple secret charts even be a topic?



Palmer recover any loot? Or wasn't that his business? A pirate collector with a handful of Kidd charts not even employing a proxy. Or assigning great value to his multiple lightning strikes of Kidd charts?
Alright. Maybe the housekeeper got the rest of his collection too.

 

[Cryptid1990]

Alas you circle back yet again to the biggest liar and fraud in the Kidd saga, the infamous Harold T Wilkins. The guy who drew and published his own fake treasure maps attributing them to William Kidd. I guess it all depends on who you are willing to believe isn't it?

Wilkins did not have permission from Palmer to take photos or copy (by drawing) the maps. He openly admitted the map in his 1935 book (the so-called "Mar Del" map) was imaginary. For example, in 1950, he wrote: "The author drew up the treasure map out of his imagination". Furthermore, the "Mar Del" map has Harold T. Wilkins' name written on it as copyright (see bottom left):

I have no clue why you think this makes him a "liar and fraud". The simple reason why his "Mar Del" map poorly resembles the Kidd-Palmer maps is because Palmer forbid him to copy any of the maps but his publisher insisted he had to produce an illustration for his 1935 book, so he had to make it up. Note that drawings of the Kidd-Palmer maps did not appear in print until the 1970s.

For those interested in the Edmunds narrative, I think a brief synopsis deserves equal time on this thread. Readers are free to draw their own conclusions.
Palmer discovered the first chart one day while using the bureau. One of the runners supporting the lid broke off revealing the words "William Kidd, his chest" impressed on one end in wax was the insignia of the foul anchor. He carefully broke the wax seal, inside was a brass tube wrapped with a small piece of parchment vellum. He called his brother, Guy and they carefully unrolled the parchment revealing the first of the Kidd charts.
When he acquired the Hardy Chest, he gave it a thorough examination. He noticed that some of the nails securing the bottom were actually screws. Removing them revealed a false bottom, and there he found the Carolus Redux sermon book dated May 29, 1662, and behind the book was the second Kidd chart.
The Morgan Chest had an obvious false bottom with a plaster skull and book "knob" to facilitate removal. On the backside was a small mirror. On removing the beading the mirror slid out and Palmer cut away the cloth covering underneath revealing the 3rd Kidd chart.
When Palmer acquired the Sara Kidd Workbox, he measured the inside and outside dimensions revealing that the box must have a secret compartment. He removed the four nails securing the trim beading at the bottom edge revealing a narrow cavity. Probing inside he removed a small piece of leather binding. On the back was an oblong piece of yellow parchment. This was the fourth Kidd chart.

That's mostly, if not entirely, wrong and disproven. As I said, you need to read G. J. Bath's books which quote private letters Palmer wrote to Wilkins. As an example, a letter dated January 1933, Palmer sent Wilkins:

... [Arthur Hill Cutler] told me an old naval man came to him and mentioned he had an old brass-bound chest with an engraved plate on top: William and Sarah Kidd: their box. One day he let it fall and must have touched a secret spring for out fell a parchment and on it a map of an island, rather a large one with writing round it.

It is clear from this letter Palmer did not discover this map. The person who found this map was either (since "he" is ambiguous) Arthur Hill Cutler or an unverifiable "old naval man" (who sold it to Cutler in his antique shop), not Palmer.

Edmund's narrative (he copied from Howlett, 1958) is demonstrably incorrect if you read Palmer's private letters he sent Wilkins. About 90% of what Wilkins wrote in his 1935 book is corroborated by Palmer in his private letters by correspondence. Wilkins only makes a few mistakes. In other words, you have it the wrong way around. Wilkins is largely trustworthy but Howlett, is not.

 

[Randawg72]

How piratey! A skull! And a bonus book knob. No one rifling the chest would notice that. VS a plain false bottom. C'mon.

The plaster skull and false bottom were well known beforehand. But the hidden chart under the cloth behind the mirror was discovered by Palmer.

Highlight actual facts pertaining to Kidd.
It will take you pre-Palmer stories.
More it will provide different insight into sites. No furniture ; or coincidental multiple secret hidden charts required.
Did Kidd take the furniture everywhere he went?

Of all the things discussed, why is it so hard to believe that a wealthy sea captain owned a desk?

Palmer recover any loot? Or wasn't that his business? A pirate collector with a handful of Kidd charts not even employing a proxy. Or assigning great value to his multiple lightning strikes of Kidd charts?
Alright. Maybe the housekeeper got the rest of his collection too.

Palmer had planned an expedition to the island but was stalled by a world war.
Of course. The housekeeper inherited all of his belongings including his home.

 

[Bocaj]

How piratey! A skull! And a bonus book knob. No one rifling the chest would notice that. VS a plain false bottom. C'mon.
While Kidd did not declare himself a pirate why not associate a skull with him; to not implicate him?

Best to read the previous posts before talking mumpitz:

Again - Skull and bones, black cloth and mirrors - those were not associated with piracy before the early 17th century!

But they were used in speculative free masonic lodges which Kidd as a Scot and member of New York's upper class could have been part of.

 

[releventchair]

Best to read the previous posts before talking mumpitz:

Again - Skull and bones, black cloth and mirrors - those were not associated with piracy before the early 17th century!

But they were used in speculative free masonic lodges which Kidd as a Scot and member of New York's upper class could have been part of.

"Could have"?
Now who's talkin mumpitz?

I mentioned Kidd didn't declare himself a pirate. It's right there under your patrician nose if you'd simply "read the previous posts"!

Now Kidds a maybe Mason.
Et Tu, Brut?

Read again my previous post (you didn't read previous posts?) suggesting skipping furniture and back tracking to actual fact. Not plaster skulls. (And weren't proper plasters actually bandaids back then in merry olde England? Let's not have an Englishman dealing in Pirate furniture of nondeclared pirates call bandaids plasters stuck on a box bottom plaster. Doubly in humid conditions.)

Meanwhile.
[ Bundle of quilts.]Off loaded into someones arms.
Was it laundry day?
What other articles consisted of double layers?
Why quilts?
That's it until so far backtracked the next actual worthwhile fact (I find) is before mutiny. But important for a reason. And for that reason there has been literal site activity by persons.
Maps/charts of pistol shaped island (or teapot depending on drawer) to identify island not required.

A 40 plus year old unsigned map fades on my refrigerator. Of little value but to the person who created it. But it kept a reasonable account of terrain and orientation of a deer hunting area for me. And highlighted some spots unrelated to actual hunting. Like many other crude maps they were to get better bird eye views. As once on site specific spots were not an issue to locate.
Were it a real high value spot there would be no record of it. Having buried caches of my own I can confirm no charts or maps exist of their locations. Did not for my Dad either. One site of which impressed us all. Had he not disclosed it to me before his death it would still be there.

Why would Kidd initial a map? Why not a cartouche that didn't implicate him directly that he could confirm should he be challenged about it for authenticity? If he so desired.
Now you suggest he may have left Masonic clue in the form of a hidden (kind of) plaster skull?? Would that not require him to be a Master Mason?
As to using a skull as a symbol of protection Kidd seemed a bit more worldly; than charmed.
As one who seized ships immunity from a charm wasn't the answer to protection. Even in the bottom of a box. IF said box was ever in his possession.

A Bowie knife belonging to J.B. would be exciting wouldn't it?
So would on belonging to R.B.. Wouldn't it?
Gee if we could just find one with initials in it's handle or one that seems old enough or a museum employee said fits a particular era we're after ; or something... Anything.
Or even if someone could say it might have been someone's....

 

[releventchair]

The plaster skull and false bottom were well known beforehand. But the hidden chart under the cloth behind the mirror was discovered by Palmer.

Of all the things discussed, why is it so hard to believe that a wealthy sea captain owned a desk?

Palmer had planned an expedition to the island but was stalled by a world war.
Of course. The housekeeper inherited all of his belongings including his home.

I don't object to a Captain with a desk.
Even a non-wealthy one.

Do you object to securing such a desk in a captains quarters or somewhere?
Or object to constantly oiling said desk? Even planing drawers if they swell too much and bind?

Research ship captains desks of the 1600's.
I disagree with Kidds desk going to sea on three different ships but let's go with that.
Kidd died just as 1700 ticked a year.
Putting well travelled alleged desk mid 1600's? At a minimum late 1600's ; right?
What in your 1600's examples of Captains desks (please take the liberty of exploring desk options within the period too) resembles Palmers desk?
I come up with Palmers desk being 1700's. By looking at alleged desks of the 16 and 1700's.
My not finding such in the 1600's doesn't mean Kidd didn't.

IF he did find a desk that wasn't popular yet and it lived aboard three ships I'd expect a bit of evidence of wear and possibly how it was secured. Though inspection in person would reveal if fastened through back of desk out of sight into material behind it aboard ship. Which is fussy and would need dealt with every time it is installed or removed.
My oldest furniture the drawers tell a tale of no longer riding as they did new. Which is better than the man who had all drawers bind during a rainy summer elsewhere.
Three ships worth of time and the humidity at sea ; salts effect as well...Plus what followed ; yet Palmer's picture makes the alleged desk look long loved.
I can't quit see Kidd polishing the hardware with his elbow. But he could have seen his reflection in it by the looks of the fuzzy picture of Palmers desk.
You get bored look up PA. House furniture hardware . Don't gag at fake keyholes and stuff. Just general outlines. Or colonial repro stuff from the 1970's forward. Hardware gets generic quick.

Do you agree with Palmers desk having been donated after Kidd's arrest/death near N.Y. ? And then for some reason shipped to England? (Which would be at least be ship #4.)

 

[Cryptid1990]

Is there an approximation on how much money Cutler made of Palmer?

No. We know though that Palmer bought/acquired all the maps and the 'Yunnan Parchment' (with the furniture pieces) from Cutler. We also know that Cutler sold Palmer numerous Lord Nelson items of dubious provenance. Additionally we know that items auctioned at Christie's (again, dubious provenance) were owned by Cutler. He name is mentioned in some auction sales. This all points to Cutler as the hoaxer.

Unfortunately, Randwawg72 is posting many false claims in this thread. Whether this is intentional or not, readers can decide. As another example, Randwawg72 incorrectly claims Palmer had the maps in his possession scientifically tested:

Hubert Palmer believed the desk was authentic. He also had the wax, ink, and parchment scientifically tested by the British Museum to confirm their 17th century origin.

This is demonstrably untrue; he wrote to Wilkins to state he would not have any of the maps tested or analysed by experts.

 

[Bocaj]

No. We know though that Palmer bought/acquired all the maps and the 'Yunnan Parchment' (with the furniture pieces) from Cutler.

Is this sure? He would have consulted with Cutler before buying anything. Did for example Dan Morgan contacted him or Cutler first? Did he always made the payment over Cutler?

We also know that Cutler sold Palmer numerous Lord Nelson items of dubious provenance. Additionally we know that items auctioned at Christie's (again, dubious provenance) were owned by Cutler. He name is mentioned in some auction sales. This all points to Cutler as the hoaxer.

dubious provenance - do you know of any item that has actually proven to be a fake?

Unfortunately, Randwawg72 is posting many false claims in this thread. Whether this is intentional or not, readers can decide.

Maybe he just get carried away a bit, I think everyone should calm a bit down. It would also be nice if people stop shouting their opinions and start proper reasoning again. With sources where possible and if not available a bit of modesty would also help. All the details of those days are murky and no one can claim anything for sure!

As another example, Randwawg72 incorrectly claims Palmer had the maps in his possession scientifically tested:


This is demonstrably untrue; he wrote to Wilkins to state he would not have any of the maps tested or analysed by experts.

I never heard of this neither, it would be nice to know at least the source of this claim.

But he did show one of the maps to the expert from the map room.

 

[Randawg72]

Wilkins did not have permission from Palmer to take photos or copy (by drawing) the maps. He openly admitted the map in his 1935 book (the so-called "Mar Del" map) was imaginary. For example, in 1950, he wrote: "The author drew up the treasure map out of his imagination". Furthermore, the "Mar Del" map has Harold T. Wilkins' name written on it as copyright (see bottom left):

View attachment 2215364

I have no clue why you think this makes him a "liar and fraud".

It's more than just the fraudulent maps. In his book Wilkins represented conjectures as facts, and some chapters were all but completely fabricated. The only reason Wilkins admitted the maps were blatant fakes is because real treasure hunters traveled to England to interview him believing the charts were real and depicted an actual island. Wilkins also believed in Atlantis, The hollow earth theory, and wrote a book in 1954 titled "Flying Saucers from the Moon"!.

It is clear from this letter Palmer did not discover this map. Wilkins only makes a few mistakes. In other words, you have it the wrong way around. Wilkins is largely trustworthy but Howlett, is not.

A few mistakes? its a well documented fact that the key chart from the Sarah Kidd Workbox measured 8.3 x 5.8 inches. Not what one would consider a "rather large one"(map). The Workbox still exists today, and there are no "secret springs" that trigger any hidden compartments.
is it possible that it could be you that have "it the wrong way around"?