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The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

In 1951, Gerald T. Hurley compiled a list of places where there were folktales and legends, Kidd buried treasure:

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Deer Island/Astore fortune is a proven hoax. A Google search also produces the following locations:

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The problem with taking any of these seriously is they were not recorded until a century or more after Kidd died. One of the earliest recorded stories was Kidd burying treasure along the Hudson River by Washington Irving (1824) ["Tales of a Traveller"]. I could be mistaken, but I could not find any literary sources from the 18th century that mention a location where Kidd buried treasure (excluding Gardiner's Island). There was a printed ballad "The Ballad of Captain Kidd", c. 1701:

"My name is Captain Kidd,As I sailed, as I sailed—And then it tells all about how he gained the Devil's good graces by burying the Bible :I had the Bible in my hand,As I sailed, as I sailed, And I buried it in the sand, As I sailed."

It appears that folktales and legends of specific locales where Kidd buried treasure arose a century later.
The ballads from the 18th century are vague and only mention "buried it in the sand".
There was more successful pirates like Tew and Avery rather than William Kidd. His exposure as pirate and his show trial and recorded fact that he buried his personal cache at Gardiners island make him a notorious super star pirate at the time. All up the eastern sea board and around the world Kidd's ironic fame spread. So much his story became folklore and every unknown pirate cache or smugglers cache became automatically connected to Kidd. As real story morphed into legends out of all proportions. By the 20th century his story between sexed up newspaper stories and treasure book authors and treasure blew out of all proportions. That is how legends form and evolve over time.

Even If you ask an ordinary person in the street to give a name of pirate? William Kidd would definitely be mentioned the most.

From his letters Kidd believed he could still recover remaining treasure from Captain Kidd’s most famous captured ship was the Quedagh Merchant, a 500-ton Armenian vessel loaded with silk, gold, and silver, seized on January 30, 1698, in the Indian Ocean. Renamed the Adventure Prize, it was later abandoned in 1699 at Catalina Island near the Dominican Republic. However we know it was looted and sunk and the trail leads back St Thomas and Curaçao where the good traded and disputed through the Caribbean via possibly Henry Bolton. February 4, 1701. Other crew testimonies point to some crew deserting taking their shares with them to St Thomas and Curacao. The questions remain is there still relics still present on their islands. Small caches of deserting ex crew members of Kidd.

Just having relic from story is treasure in itself.

Here is some retrieved from the Quedagh Merchant.

Screenshot 2026-04-24 184333.webp


Here is relics preserved from Gardiners island. A fragment from the cloth Capt. William Kidd presented to Mrs. John Gardiner for her hospitality while visiting Gardiner’s Island in June, 1699. The cloth is composed of silk, cotton, and metallic gold and silver thread, measuring 4 3/8 x 2 1/2 in. It is said that he also gave her a clay pitcher filled with dried fruit. Kidd later returned to Gardiner’s Island, where he entrusted John Gardiner with a chest, among other things, containing fifty pounds of gold and fifty pounds of silver. It is said that John Gardiner buried the chest in Cherry Tree field on the island, where it was later retrieved.

Screenshot 2026-04-24 184750.webp


And other fragment below.

Screenshot 2026-04-24 184839.webp


Hidden away in Sylvester Manor, a seventeenth-century provisions plantation on Shelter Island, NY, lies a frayed scrap of green and yellow fabric only 4 3/8 x 2 ½ inches in size (fig. 1). Made of silk, cotton, and gilded silver thread, this cloth would have once shimmered in the light. The looping scrawls of a handwritten note give the fragment an abbreviated provenance: “a piece of the ‘Gold Blanket.’” The note asserts that the fabric was “…presented by the Pirate Kidd to Madame Gardiner of Gardiners [sic] Island,” and later “…presented by Mrs. Kimball to Mrs. Horsford, descendants of [illegible] Gardiner.” Carefully passed down and divided through generations of Gardiner relatives since the turn of the eighteenth century, this scrap presents a unique opportunity to study family connections and legacy in colonial North America. While contemporary family histories are recorded in genealogy books, or may be lost entirely, this piece of fabric is a material embodiment of Gardiner familial connections that has transformed over time with the family. By considering the fabric and legend through the lens of Marcel Mauss’s theory of gifting, this essay will unravel how the scrap functions to create and maintain connections and build family legacy. Family genealogies, like Cutis Gardiner’s 1890 book Lion Gardiner and his Descendants 1599-1890, court records, broadsides, local legends, and the scrap itself will support the analysis of the ‘Gold Blanket’ and the connections it creates.

volume 10, issue 1
A Piece of the “Gold Blanket”: Gardiner’s Island, Captain William Kidd, and the Gifting of Family History
by Allison Donoghue
Figure 1. The scrap of “Gold Blanket” and accompanying note (ca. 1700). Silk. 4.4 x 2.5 in. (11 x 6.4 cm). Courtesy of the Sylvester Manor Collection. Photograph by the author.

Hidden away in Sylvester Manor, a seventeenth-century provisions plantation on Shelter Island, NY, lies a frayed scrap of green and yellow fabric only 4 3/8 x 2 ½ inches in size (fig. 1). Made of silk, cotton, and gilded silver thread, this cloth would have once shimmered in the light. The looping scrawls of a handwritten note give the fragment an abbreviated provenance: “a piece of the ‘Gold Blanket.’” The note asserts that the fabric was “…presented by the Pirate Kidd to Madame Gardiner of Gardiners [sic] Island,” and later “…presented by Mrs. Kimball to Mrs. Horsford, descendants of [illegible] Gardiner.” Carefully passed down and divided through generations of Gardiner relatives since the turn of the eighteenth century, this scrap presents a unique opportunity to study family connections and legacy in colonial North America. While contemporary family histories are recorded in genealogy books, or may be lost entirely, this piece of fabric is a material embodiment of Gardiner familial connections that has transformed over time with the family. By considering the fabric and legend through the lens of Marcel Mauss’s theory of gifting, this essay will unravel how the scrap functions to create and maintain connections and build family legacy. Family genealogies, like Cutis Gardiner’s 1890 book Lion Gardiner and his Descendants 1599-1890, court records, broadsides, local legends, and the scrap itself will support the analysis of the ‘Gold Blanket’ and the connections it creates.

The scrap’s bold colors and distinctive floral motif suggest its journey began in India. The fabric has a woven pattern with two distinct repeating columns, one a glimmering gold and the other a deep green. A full flower with five pink outlined petals and a green stem is visible in the gold columns. The green column is decorated with two gold flowers, cut off by the division of the textile, suggesting a repeating pattern. The five-petalled flower is a common motif found on Indian textiles beginning in the early eighteenth century.1 Europe had been importing vast quantities of Indian textiles with the best being quality embroidered silks and dye painted cottons coming from Gujarat and Bengal.2 However, designs favored by Europeans tended to feature large scale and fantastical florals and foliage on a white background.3 The small, evenly spaced patterning on the scrap could indicate that it was not originally meant for the European market before it was intercepted by Kidd. Although the origin is ambiguous, the luxurious material qualities of the fabric highlight its significant worth. Some of the finest fabrics were woven or embroidered with gilded silver threads called zari, meaning “gold.”4 The making of zari was a highly skilled and hereditary profession, passed down through families. The skill necessary to create zari, combined with the monetary value of the materials used in making the thread, resulted in a prized and expensive commodity. The zari woven into the scrap lends to the accuracy of the note’s description of the textile as a “Gold Blanket.” It continues to shimmer today and is but one small example of the intricate and sumptuous patterns that were achieved using the thread.

But it is not only treasure that had survived below. Robert Lion Gardiner, 16th Lord of the Manor, with a ring and artefact from the “Kidd Collection”.

Screenshot 2026-04-24 184955.webp


So in essence any artifacts that can be traced back to William Kidd due to their rarity and notoriety would be worth fortune if ever going to auction.

Crow
 
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There was more successful pirates like Tew and Avery rather than William Kidd. His exposure as pirate and his show trial and recorded fact that he buried his personal cache at Gardiners island make him a notorious super star pirate at the time. All up the eastern sea board and around the world Kidd's ironic fame spread. So much his story became folklore and every unknown pirate cache or smugglers cache became automatically connected to Kidd. As real story morphed into legends out of all proportions. By the 20th century his story between sexed up newspaper stories and treasure book authors and treasure blew out of all proportions. That is how legends form and evolve over time.

Even If you ask an ordinary person in the street to give a name of pirate? William Kidd would definitely be mentioned the most.

From his letters Kidd believed he could still recover remaining treasure from Captain Kidd’s most famous captured ship was the Quedagh Merchant, a 500-ton Armenian vessel loaded with silk, gold, and silver, seized on January 30, 1698, in the Indian Ocean. Renamed the Adventure Prize, it was later abandoned in 1699 at Catalina Island near the Dominican Republic. However we know it was looted and sunk and the trail leads back St Thomas and Curaçao where the good traded and disputed through the Caribbean via possibly Henry Bolton. February 4, 1701. Other crew testimonies point to some crew deserting taking their shares with them to St Thomas and Curacao. The questions remain is there still relics still present on their islands. Small caches of deserting ex crew members of Kidd.

Just having relic from story is treasure in itself.

Here is some retrieved from the Quedagh Merchant.

View attachment 2251527

Here is relics preserved from Gardiners island. A fragment from the cloth Capt. William Kidd presented to Mrs. John Gardiner for her hospitality while visiting Gardiner’s Island in June, 1699. The cloth is composed of silk, cotton, and metallic gold and silver thread, measuring 4 3/8 x 2 1/2 in. It is said that he also gave her a clay pitcher filled with dried fruit. Kidd later returned to Gardiner’s Island, where he entrusted John Gardiner with a chest, among other things, containing fifty pounds of gold and fifty pounds of silver. It is said that John Gardiner buried the chest in Cherry Tree field on the island, where it was later retrieved.

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And other fragment below.

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Hidden away in Sylvester Manor, a seventeenth-century provisions plantation on Shelter Island, NY, lies a frayed scrap of green and yellow fabric only 4 3/8 x 2 ½ inches in size (fig. 1). Made of silk, cotton, and gilded silver thread, this cloth would have once shimmered in the light. The looping scrawls of a handwritten note give the fragment an abbreviated provenance: “a piece of the ‘Gold Blanket.’” The note asserts that the fabric was “…presented by the Pirate Kidd to Madame Gardiner of Gardiners [sic] Island,” and later “…presented by Mrs. Kimball to Mrs. Horsford, descendants of [illegible] Gardiner.” Carefully passed down and divided through generations of Gardiner relatives since the turn of the eighteenth century, this scrap presents a unique opportunity to study family connections and legacy in colonial North America. While contemporary family histories are recorded in genealogy books, or may be lost entirely, this piece of fabric is a material embodiment of Gardiner familial connections that has transformed over time with the family. By considering the fabric and legend through the lens of Marcel Mauss’s theory of gifting, this essay will unravel how the scrap functions to create and maintain connections and build family legacy. Family genealogies, like Cutis Gardiner’s 1890 book Lion Gardiner and his Descendants 1599-1890, court records, broadsides, local legends, and the scrap itself will support the analysis of the ‘Gold Blanket’ and the connections it creates.

volume 10, issue 1
A Piece of the “Gold Blanket”: Gardiner’s Island, Captain William Kidd, and the Gifting of Family History
by Allison Donoghue
Figure 1. The scrap of “Gold Blanket” and accompanying note (ca. 1700). Silk. 4.4 x 2.5 in. (11 x 6.4 cm). Courtesy of the Sylvester Manor Collection. Photograph by the author.

Hidden away in Sylvester Manor, a seventeenth-century provisions plantation on Shelter Island, NY, lies a frayed scrap of green and yellow fabric only 4 3/8 x 2 ½ inches in size (fig. 1). Made of silk, cotton, and gilded silver thread, this cloth would have once shimmered in the light. The looping scrawls of a handwritten note give the fragment an abbreviated provenance: “a piece of the ‘Gold Blanket.’” The note asserts that the fabric was “…presented by the Pirate Kidd to Madame Gardiner of Gardiners [sic] Island,” and later “…presented by Mrs. Kimball to Mrs. Horsford, descendants of [illegible] Gardiner.” Carefully passed down and divided through generations of Gardiner relatives since the turn of the eighteenth century, this scrap presents a unique opportunity to study family connections and legacy in colonial North America. While contemporary family histories are recorded in genealogy books, or may be lost entirely, this piece of fabric is a material embodiment of Gardiner familial connections that has transformed over time with the family. By considering the fabric and legend through the lens of Marcel Mauss’s theory of gifting, this essay will unravel how the scrap functions to create and maintain connections and build family legacy. Family genealogies, like Cutis Gardiner’s 1890 book Lion Gardiner and his Descendants 1599-1890, court records, broadsides, local legends, and the scrap itself will support the analysis of the ‘Gold Blanket’ and the connections it creates.

The scrap’s bold colors and distinctive floral motif suggest its journey began in India. The fabric has a woven pattern with two distinct repeating columns, one a glimmering gold and the other a deep green. A full flower with five pink outlined petals and a green stem is visible in the gold columns. The green column is decorated with two gold flowers, cut off by the division of the textile, suggesting a repeating pattern. The five-petalled flower is a common motif found on Indian textiles beginning in the early eighteenth century.1 Europe had been importing vast quantities of Indian textiles with the best being quality embroidered silks and dye painted cottons coming from Gujarat and Bengal.2 However, designs favored by Europeans tended to feature large scale and fantastical florals and foliage on a white background.3 The small, evenly spaced patterning on the scrap could indicate that it was not originally meant for the European market before it was intercepted by Kidd. Although the origin is ambiguous, the luxurious material qualities of the fabric highlight its significant worth. Some of the finest fabrics were woven or embroidered with gilded silver threads called zari, meaning “gold.”4 The making of zari was a highly skilled and hereditary profession, passed down through families. The skill necessary to create zari, combined with the monetary value of the materials used in making the thread, resulted in a prized and expensive commodity. The zari woven into the scrap lends to the accuracy of the note’s description of the textile as a “Gold Blanket.” It continues to shimmer today and is but one small example of the intricate and sumptuous patterns that were achieved using the thread.

But it is not only treasure that had survived below. Robert Lion Gardiner, 16th Lord of the Manor, with a ring and artefact from the “Kidd Collection”.

View attachment 2251530

So in essence any artifacts that can be traced back to William Kidd due to their rarity and notoriety would be worth fortune if ever going to auction.

Crow

A proper cache is an art. Kids functioned as designed. Including his indicating how to locate it.
Keeping contents dry alone is a strong factor. Followed by the steady cooler earths temperature in warmest seasons.
Far more than hurriedly bonking shore with a bow and hopping into a dune and digging a hole like a potty stop.
 
The problem with taking any of these seriously is they were not recorded until a century or more after Kidd died. One of the earliest recorded stories was Kidd burying treasure along the Hudson River by Washington Irving (1824) ["Tales of a Traveller"]. I could be mistaken, but I could not find any literary sources from the 18th century that mention a location where Kidd buried treasure (excluding Gardiner's Island). There was a printed ballad "The Ballad of Captain Kidd", c. 1701:

"My name is Captain Kidd,As I sailed, as I sailed—And then it tells all about how he gained the Devil's good graces by burying the Bible :I had the Bible in my hand,As I sailed, as I sailed, And I buried it in the sand, As I sailed."

It appears that folktales and legends of specific locales where Kidd buried treasure arose a century later.
The ballads from the 18th century are vague and only mention "buried it in the sand".
My mistake. The ballad never said Kidd buried treasure but his bible.
This means that ballads in the 18th century did not even mention Kidd buried treasure.

Bonner (1944):

1777037384604.webp

Other articles of interest:

Bonner, Willard Hallam. "Hudson River Legends of Captain Kidd", New York Folklore 2, no. 1 (1946): 40-51.

Huguenin, Charles A. "The Kidd Salvage Project in the Hudson River", New York Folklore 15, no. 1 (1959): 192-214.
 
From Richard Zacks' The Pirate Hunter: The True Story of Captain Kidd (2002), pp. 43-44:
Pirates rarely buried treasure but drank it up or spent it on whores. If they didn't bury it, then that standard, the treasure map, didn't exist either. Edgar Allan Poe and his "Gold Bug" notwithstanding, not a single authentic treasure map has ever been preserved.

I have proven in my thread that Kidd never buried treasure on Gardiner's Island (he never even set foot on the island):

The stories and rumours he buried treasure elsewhere are dubious and arose long after his death such as by Washington Irving (1824).

With no treasure map, and no buried treasure, why on earth are people treasure hunting for something that does not exist?

Blak bart said:
Since I live on this side of the Atlantic I have to realistically hunt from st. Thomas, curaco, mona island and Catalina island....all the way up to Gardner island.....that leaves hundreds of islands he passed by !! But for my low budget approach, my first trip would be to look around Catalina island. If the quedah merchant is there, then i start there. First the flight in, then accommodation close by, then a ferry ride over to Catalina and a snorkel over the shipwreck only 70 feet offshore. At this point it is easy to see where they came ashore, and there most certainly would be a camp site on the island. There is only one logical spot to come ashore on this island, and there is only one Anchorage for the island. After my snorkel I would concentrate on the land, and start exploring for caves, and colonial era clues....black glass, pottery fragments, and pipe stems etc. These markers would denote a shore camp !! The island is now a tourist trap and sees moderate tourism daily so access iss easy. On a scout trip like this i would not bring the detector but I would quickly know if I'm returning or not with one. This is the best shot at finding at least something related to Kidd....they were definitely ashore here, and there should be some small evidence of it. So for a few thousand dollars, and a great adventure, I've put myself in a position to make at least a good attempt to find direct evidence of Kidd and crew....one button would be a win for me....ive done these practical solo missions before, and have made discoveries. If i were inclined....i would be on that island to start !
:dontknow:
 
From Richard Zacks' The Pirate Hunter: The True Story of Captain Kidd (2002), pp. 43-44:


I have proven in my thread that Kidd never buried treasure on Gardiner's Island (he never even set foot on the island):

The stories and rumours he buried treasure elsewhere are dubious and arose long after his death such as by Washington Irving (1824).

With no treasure map, and no buried treasure, why on earth are people treasure hunting for something that does not exist?


:dontknow:
Bart kills it down that way and has the trinkets & treasure to prove it. I’ll take his word over many on here.
 
From Richard Zacks' The Pirate Hunter: The True Story of Captain Kidd (2002), pp. 43-44:


I have proven in my thread that Kidd never buried treasure on Gardiner's Island (he never even set foot on the island):

The stories and rumours he buried treasure elsewhere are dubious and arose long after his death such as by Washington Irving (1824).

With no treasure map, and no buried treasure, why on earth are people treasure hunting for something that does not exist?


:dontknow:
Re-read post #945.
Heck re-read all posts if you still don't comprehend the answer to your question that didn't need asked..
Then try saying you're not dumb enough to insult Bart's credibility.

You have proven something though.
 
From Richard Zacks' The Pirate Hunter: The True Story of Captain Kidd (2002), pp. 43-44:
Pirates rarely buried treasure but drank it up or spent it on whores.
Mr Zacks' was commenting on typical pirate behavior. He was Not referring specifically to Captain Kidd.
You are distorting information to suit your own narrative.

Zack's also wrote:
"..family tradition holds that John Gardiner buried the Kidd chest full of gold under a spot in Cherry Tree field. (That spot is still marked to this day)."
The Pirate Hunter: The True Story of Captain Kidd (2002), page 242.
 
Mr Zacks' was commenting on typical pirate behavior. He was Not referring specifically to Captain Kidd.
You are distorting information to suit your own narrative.
Actually it is you distorting by another quote-mine. Why did you omit the following two sentences (I quoted)?

Pirates rarely buried treasure but drank it up or spent it on whores. If they didn't bury it, then that standard, the treasure map, didn't exist either. Edgar Allan Poe and his "Gold Bug" notwithstanding, not a single authentic treasure map has ever been preserved.
This is exactly what I earlier said - there is no such thing as an authentic pirate treasure map. 49 pages and you have failed to provide one example. Pirate treasure maps are a literary trope and fiction. You can continue to delusionally deny this but it does not change the reality.
Zack's also wrote:
"..family tradition holds that John Gardiner buried the Kidd chest full of gold under a spot in Cherry Tree field. (That spot is still marked to this day)."
The Pirate Hunter: The True Story of Captain Kidd (2002), page 242.
I already refuted this in my thread. Kidd never set foot on the island. We know this based on the trial witness testimonies. There is not one but multiple, dubious, contradictory, family traditions that Kidd buried treasure that arose after his death. The earliest recorded story by the Gardiner's (c. 1800) states Kidd buried a treasure in a swamp on the west side of the island. The family tradition of the Cherry Tree field location arose later. The marker at this spot was not built until the late 19th century, ~170 years after Kidd died. Note that the first compiler of these family traditions, Curtiss Gardiner (1890), a direct descendent of Lion Gardiner doubted them and described them as unreliable.
 
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Pirates rarely buried treasure but drank it up or spent it on whores. If they didn't bury it, then that standard, the treasure map, didn't exist either. Edgar Allan Poe and his "Gold Bug" notwithstanding, not a single authentic treasure map has ever been preserved.
My apologies.
Mr Zacks' was commenting on typical pirate behavior. He was Not referring specifically to Captain Kidd.
You are distorting information to suit your own narrative.

Zacks' was stating an opinion. In your agreement, you are voicing your own opinion.
Opinions are not facts.
Please stop presenting them as so.

(PS: I can cite at least 20 reliable sources that say Kidd's treasure was buried. (not including your last post).
But what difference would it make? Lets say that Kidd left his chest gift wrapped on Gardiner's dining room table. Gardiner still surrendered it to Bellomont as evidence and the end result is the same).
 
My apologies.
Mr Zacks' was commenting on typical pirate behavior. He was Not referring specifically to Captain Kidd.
You are distorting information to suit your own narrative.

Zacks' was stating an opinion. In your agreement, you are voicing your own opinion.
Opinions are not facts.
Please stop presenting them as so.

(PS: I can cite at least 20 reliable sources that say Kidd's treasure was buried. (not including your last post).
The witness testimonies including John Gardiner's are clear that Kidd never set foot on Gardiner's Island. Kidd gave John Gardiner a chest and boxes when he met him aboard the ship and Gardiner took them ashore. Kidd in letters and his own witness testimony never stated he buried a treasure. Bellomont's letters are explicit that Kidd did not bury anything on Gardiner's Island since he gave the chest of gold and boxes to John Gardiner. What "20 reliable sources" do you have? If you talking about stories (not related to Gardiner's Island) of Kidd burying treasure elsewhere they do not have a historical basis since they were first recorded a century or more after Kidd's death and were obviously made up for amusement and entertainment. The timing is not a coincidence since the 19th century (especially Victoria era) saw the emergence of romantized pirate fiction. What happened during this period was a change in depiction of pirates from thieves and ruffians to adventurous "lovable rogue" types. This explains the fictional literary tropes of pirates burying gold and pirate treasure maps.

But what difference would it make? Lets say that Kidd left his chest gift wrapped on Gardiner's dining room table. Gardiner still surrendered it to Bellomont as evidence and the end result is the same).
You created this thread claiming Kidd buried a treasure and the Kidd-Palmer treasure maps are genuine. Both are incorrect and refuted. If pirates and privateers did not bury treasure or create treasure maps (these are literary tropes popularised by Robert Louis Stevenson), then why or how would Captain Kidd have done this? What made him exceptional? As I said, there are no historically documented cases of pirates burying treasure or creating treasure maps. The fact you cannot provide a single example (~49 pages) speaks for itself and proves my point.
 
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The witness testimonies including John Gardiner's are clear that Kidd never set foot on Gardiner's Island. Kidd gave John Gardiner a chest and boxes when he met him aboard the ship and Gardiner took them ashore. Kidd in letters and his own witness testimony never stated he buried a treasure.
As I've already said. Believe what you want to. Buried or not, it's a moot point.
You created this thread claiming Kidd buried a treasure and the Kidd-Palmer treasure maps are genuine. Both are incorrect and refuted. If pirates and privateers did not bury treasure or create treasure maps (these are literary tropes popularised by Robert Louis Stevenson), then why or how would Captain Kidd have done this? What made him exceptional? As I said, there are no historically documented cases of pirates burying treasure or creating treasure maps.
I wrote "Lodged", Not buried. And I do believe the charts are authentic (My opinion). As per usual, you have based your reasoning on false information.
The fact you cannot provide a single example (~49 pages) speaks for itself and proves my point.
Right back atcha. You have failed (yet again) to prove otherwise.

(Please do a little research before your next rant. Page #1, post #1 is fairly easy to find 😉).
 
As I've already said. Believe what you want to. Buried or not, it's a moot point.
I think it's the whole point. We're looking for even a single documented example of a pirate who buried any treasure. Up until now, I assumed Kidd was the only one. But now it appears that him burying the treasure was just lore tacked onto the story.
 
I think it's the whole point. We're looking for even a single documented example of a pirate who buried any treasure. Up until now, I assumed Kidd was the only one. But now it appears that him burying the treasure was just lore tacked onto the story.

Hi Carl-NC,
Whose point are you referencing? What about Captain Thompson and The Treasure of Lima?, or Sir Francis Drake's buried treasure?

I do not believe in conspiracy theories. It's much more likely that Kidd buried his stash on Gardiner's Island. (Just like the plaque says). The intent of this thread was to ponder the validity of Kidd's charts and treasure. Not to dispute if it was buried.
 
As I've already said. Believe what you want to. Buried or not, it's a moot point.
You repeatedly stated in this thread, incorrectly, that Kidd buried treasure on Gardiner's Island, for example, #774:

We know for a fact that Captain Kidd buried some of his treasure on Gardiner's Island. (Est. value £10,000 to £20,000 pounds). That event was well documented by Gardiner, Bellomont and Kidd himself.
This is demonstrably false. Gardiner's witness testimony states Kidd gave Gardiner the chest of gold on the ship (Kidd never set foot on the island) nor do Bellomont's letters explicitly state or even imply Kidd buried treasure there. I posted these sources in the other thread. It is apparent you never bothered to read the trial testimonies.

I wrote "Lodged", Not buried. And I do believe the charts are authentic (My opinion). As per usual, you have based your reasoning on false information.
Right back atcha. You have failed (yet again) to prove otherwise.

(Please do a little research before your next rant. Page #1, post #1 is fairly easy to find 😉).
If you believe the Kidd-Palmer maps are authentic this means you must believe Kidd buried a treasure. 3/4 maps (excluding the Skeleton Map) have an X marks the spot to dig and you posted two in your first post:

1778378394618.webp

Note there is an X marks the spot on the Coral Island Map but it is small and hard to see.

Facepalm and after nearly 50 pages you have not presented a shred of evidence these maps are authentic.
 
What about Captain Thompson and The Treasure of Lima?, or Sir Francis Drake's buried treasure?
I forget about Drake, I guess because I never considered him a pirate. But he did bury treasure so that should count. Not sure about Thompson.

The intent of this thread was to ponder the validity of Kidd's charts and treasure. Not to dispute if it was buried.
Sorry, these discussion keep crossing threads.
 
Well I have to ask for caution because in absolute terms all those arguments here are false. There is at least the "Avery Letter" where a certain "WK" claims that treasure was buried. It is not a treasure map but could very well the source for all what has come later - including fiction like "Treasure Island".

There was the question of Kidd being special. Certainly he was no pirate at all and the situation around him was quite special too. I think this is generally the issue that labeling Kidd a pirate by the totally corrupt British government at the time has since been taking as a fact.

So the question should be if people - including privateers - in exceptional circumstances bury treasure and draw map to them - yes they do.

It doesn't prove Kidd buried anything or that his treasure or the maps are real but as said I caution to use arguments like: pirates newer buried treasure or 'X' never marks the spot. It is better to stay with specific cases like Gardiner's island where demonstratively as Cryptid has shown Kid never even set foot on. Also it is true that in general pirates where not inclined to bury anything but it doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions to the rule: https://www.treasurenet.com/threads...asure-on-gardiners-island.719759/post-7425363

So all in all the claim that Kidd buried a treasure must be sustained with some hard evidence or at least a very reasonable motive.

I can present both - the "Avery the pirate letter" and as a motive that he was tasked to find and retrieve the treasures of Avery & Co and it is possible he succeeded in finding them as they where hidden but not buried. With the extremely unreliable crew of his he was not able to retrieve it. Neither to move it very far from where he found it. Knowing that the pirates would certainly come back for it he had no other alternative then to bury the most valuable part of it. Avery or some of his crew came back but could only retrieve part (goods etc) but not all (see second "Avery the pirate" letter). Kidd took the position of the rest into his grave and from there the legend was born.


both "Avery the Pirate" letters:

the partially decoded second letter:

 
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Hi Carl-NC,
Whose point are you referencing? What about Captain Thompson and The Treasure of Lima?, or Sir Francis Drake's buried treasure?
There is an informative article: "The Golden Myth of Cocos Island" in Sea: The Pacific Coast Yachting Magazine (1941) but I only have access to a few snippets. If a Peruvian treasure was somehow transferred to Captain Thompson, why is this not mentioned in a single Peruvian/Spanish record? Total absence of evidence. As the article notes, "William Thompson's story can not possibly be verified".

Is there any evidence Francis Drake actually buried treasure? It is commonly claimed Kidd buried treasure on Gardiner's Island but this is disproven by the trial witness testimonies (for example, John Gardiner testified that Kidd gave him the chest of gold when he was aboard the ship). I would need to look at late 16th/early 17th century sources concerning Drake to verify if he did or did not bury treasure.

I do not believe in conspiracy theories. It's much more likely that Kidd buried his stash on Gardiner's Island. (Just like the plaque says). The intent of this thread was to ponder the validity of Kidd's charts and treasure. Not to dispute if it was buried.
Why on earth would a plaque written ~170 years after Kidd died be more reliable than the trial witness testimonies and Bellomont's letters when Kidd was alive? It is apparent you do not know how to evaluate evidence. Do you even know what the historical method is?
 

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Right back atcha. You have failed (yet again) to prove otherwise.
Someone who makes a claim typically has a burden of proof to substantiate the claim with evidence. In contrast, you fail to provide a shred of evidence for your claims and constantly try to shift the burden of proof. The obvious reason you do this is your claims are unfounded and you cannot support them. Hitchens’s Razor states that in the absence of evidence, a claim can be rejected without needing to prove the contrary. There is a total absence of evidence for your claims so they can indeed be dismissed or rejected without further debate. You lose.

After nearly 50 pages -

Zero evidence Kidd buried a treasure.
Zero evidence Kidd "lodged" a treasure.
Zero evidence Kidd drew or owned a treasure map.
Zero evidence the so-called Kidd-Palmer maps are authentic.
Zero evidence pirates buried treasure.
Zero evidence pirates made maps of buried treasure.
Zero evidence there is an authentic pirate treasure map ("X marks the spot").
I could go on...

Will you admit are wrong? 🥱 It is not worth my time further counter-arguing or refuting you on Kidd. However, I might create a separate thread questioning whether Drake actually buried treasure (seeming as you mentioned this but failed to substantiate it with any evidence).
 
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If you believe the Kidd-Palmer maps are authentic this means you must believe Kidd buried a treasure.
Of course*. Only a moron would devote their time and effort
to something that they thought was fake. (No offense).
3/4 maps (excluding the Skeleton Map) have an X marks the spot to dig and you posted two in your first post:
Nothing gets past you does it? Don't forget this one (post #419):

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(* Kidd wrote "lodged". But since the Yunnan parchment reads
"At or Near 2Ft Deep" your word choice is sensible.)
 
It is true that there is no hard evidence for any of the mentioned and it won't be as it wasn't a state operation (at that point at least) that would have bee documented in the state papers or somewhere else. So all what we have are hints and the assumption of either Kidd lying or not.

But why would we take the state and its officials words as prove of anything but discount Kidd's word? I from my experience I have seen more honest criminals then politicians.

I think it is better not to go to extreme claims (of pirates never ever burying anything). Even if true it doesn't help much in that case as mentioned it is quite special.

Please everyone be kind to each other, at least try...
 

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