Need Help?

[tomcat9605]

This is my first post. Please bear with me. I found this item on the Battle of Greensprings area, the British called it, the Battle of Jamestown Ford. Along with many American leadballs. Also a few British buttons. I have not cleaned it throughly yet. A crown with a pommel on top. Under the crown is some kind of flower. To the right is a unicorn with his horn bent, and broken legs. I'm sure there was a Lion on the left. You can see the broken edge where it was. Also the bottom shows where something had broke off. On the back one curved piece like and old buckle. Because of the green patina I believe it's made of copper, not sure though.

 

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[Iron Patch]

Hey guys sorry about the pics but I have really been reluctant to clean it. I soaked it and very cafefully poked the dirt from between the horn and head of the unicorn. Over the years I'm sure a plow has bent it over. You can see, under magnification, the ripples where it bent over. Yes it is a crown on the top, and I would have to agree with Cru that it's a rose. I am going to let Coloinal Williamsburg clean it for me sometime down the road. They are really stressed for time and space for their own stuff, so can only get my buddy to handle very little at a time. Heres a pic after cleaning the dirt from the space between the horn and head.
Thanks tomcat.

Thanks for the better picture.

I can understand why IP had issues, its a non-standard badge & may not have been Military issued. I know that plenty of items were commisioned or made to sell to soldiers, as they had the money (specially the Officers). (A made up example) Would be a craftsman in Yorkshire making badges which would be meaningful to the fighting Yorkshire men. My point is, just because its not been published, or it was not the usual military issued item, does not rule it out as a piece carried by a soldier (this has happen for thousands of years of fighting). I think you have something special, which you may never get to the bottom of (but fingers crossed)

Sure anything is possible but you can only research what's known, so there's no choice in the matter. If it's a one of a kind type thing it's cool as a detecting find, but most of the interest is gone. The condition would have killed any real value anyway, but that's beside the point. I think the context of the find would probably play a big role in how I look at it, but that's something we don't know, so I'll just go with it is what it is.

 

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[Iron Patch]

Ahhh...a much better pic of the ROSE! Good luck at C. Williamsburg...keep us in the loop.

Even after seeing a clear pic I still think it looks more like a thistle! Oh well.

 

[BttleDiggerDrew]

This is my first post. Please bear with me. I found this item on the Battle of Greensprings area, the British called it, the Battle of Jamestown Ford. Along with many American leadballs. Also a few British buttons. I have not cleaned it throughly yet. A crown with a pommel on top. Under the crown is some kind of flower. To the right is a unicorn with his horn bent, and broken legs. I'm sure there was a Lion on the left. You can see the broken edge where it was. Also the bottom shows where something had broke off. On the back one curved piece like and old buckle. Because of the green patina I believe it's made of copper, not sure though.

Very old brass also gains a patina..

 

[tomcat9605]

Hey guys, the item was found in the same area as the buttons, and countless round balls. Right in the British lines. Also the monetary value is of no concern to me. The story behind the item. I know I'll never know who owned it, and why it came to be lost where it was. Did this man come out of the fight alive or did he fall there that day in 1781. Any information that I can find on it is more then I had before. I thank everyone for looking around and adding their ideas! The thing is this is a soild connection to that day in our history. Again I do really appreciate all the effort by everyone. Anything anyone can add would be great!!!

 

[DCMatt]

Now that the "fracas" is over, I'd like to see some additional pics of the back.

If we can determine how it was attached, perhaps we can get a better idea of what it was attached to.

DCMatt

 

[tomcat9605]

I'll post some of the back tonight

 

[tomcat9605]

heres the hook on the back

 

[ivan salis]

 

[DCMatt]

heres the hook on the back

now that is very strange, this doesn't help me, as I have not seen this method of fixing

These pics don't help me much either. It seems to be something that would have afixed to leather but the hook is in an odd position.

It the piece broken at all? Was there another animal on the other side? Any holes or evidence of other fixing points on it?

I don't get it... yet.

DCMatt

 

[NaturalJWL]

Still looks like a HOG to me

 

[DCMatt]

heres the hook on the back

now that is very strange, this doesn't help me, as I have not seen this method of fixing

These pics don't help me much either. It seems to be something that would have affixed to leather but the hook is in an odd position.

It the piece broken at all? Was there another animal on the other side? Any holes or evidence of other fixing points on it?

I don't get it... yet.

DCMatt

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1381055
A Unicorn Right is typical of our coat of arms & should have a missing Lion Left & moto underneath. However, I can't find any Rose over crown, expect without the unicorn etc

I can see why you might think "unicorn", but I'm not convinced. The "horn" on the head looks more like a leg and hoof than a horn. I even tried to see it as an elephant's trunk for a while. Could it simply be a stallion indicative of cavalry? I'm thinking Cru's earlier post about this being related to the Yorkshire regiment, specifically the Dragoons, is correct.

This piece predates the official name change of the 33rd to the 1st Yorkshire West Riding although the association is well established long before the 1782 name change.

According to my reseach, the Crown allow a regimental commander as certain amount of discretion in outfitting his troops which was limited only by the pocketbook of the commander. Cornwallis (commanding the 33rd at Green Spring) apparently took great pride in the appearance of his troops and purchased items with his own funds.

That said (and as Cru pointed out earlier), this relic could easily be a custom designed piece not officially issued by the military.

But piece of what? The fastener doesn't match anything I've seen on period cap badges or any other badges. Is it part of a buckle? Anybody got any other clues?

Still researching...

DCMatt

 

[tomcat9605]

That sounds good DC. I was leaning towards buckle, because of the hook, just wasn't sure. I wonder if anyone knows what Cornwallis's coat of arms looked like. I wonder if there was a rose in it?

 

[Bramblefind]

This is faint but on this piece under the Royal Arms it looks like the 7th Regiment used the crowned rose with supporters of some sort.

http://7rf.crownforces.org/artifacts.html

Royal Fusiliers Officer’s Gorget

Although this gorget shows much wear and tear, it is nonetheless a work of very fine craftsmanship. The Royal Arms engraving is typical for a British gorget, but this piece contains some unique elements. Below the Royal cipher is the regimental device of the Tudor rose within the garter. The upper left of the gorget is engraved with VIITH within a wreath, suspended from a Roman style breastplate, behind which appears to be a short scimitar sword, a pike, and another implement I cannot quite make out. The upper right of the gorget is engraved with REGT within a wreath, suspended from what appears to be either a Gallic-Roman shield or helmet, behind which is a spontoon and a standard on a flagpole. The items in both corners of the gorget are suspended from an engraved ribbon with bow.

I also think members of this regiment were possibly at that battle site-

http://www.companyoflivinghistorians.org/7unithist.htm

1781 -
January – 9 Officers and 168 Fuziliers, organized into 4 companies, are detached to reinforce the garrison at Ninety-Six, SC but are diverted and attached to Tarleton's force to chase Daniel Morgan. The remainder of the regiment is returned to Camden.
17 January - Battle of Cowpens – The majority of the 4 companies are killed, wounded or captured along with the regiment's colours which were with baggage train.
15 March - survivors of the Cowpens Campaign are with Cornwallis's army and fight at Guilford Courthouse.
June - Cowpens POW's are exchanged and sent to Charleston, SC.
18 October – The few men who remained attached to Cornwallis's army are surrendered along with the Yorktown, Va Garrison.
December – The regiment is sent to garrison Savanna, Ga.

 

[Larkemi]

The new pics do help alot. The "thistle" is really a Rose Argent called and English Rose or a Yorkshire Rose which would go along with Cornwallis and his command over the 33rd which fought the battle where this was found. It is common that the head of the lion or unicorn came up even with the top of the crown. Hence the debated "horn" isn't so. It is the beard of the lion or the unicorn. I believe it to be the unicorn because it is on the right side whereas the lion is usually place on the left. The size would make it less likely to be a hat crest but more likely to be and ornate fixture on a chest or drum because it is either too big or too small by itself but adjoined with wider and or taller pieces (not seen here) then maybe a greadier. We are seeing the thickness of the piece because of the metal holder on the back. What puzzles me the most is that there doesn't seem to be a "fixture" on the left side. I would have suspected a piece of leg at the top or bottom but it looks smooth. I definately believe it is British and because of the English Rose because of that I also feel it is from the 33rd which has direct link to the city Yorkshire where the coat of arms always has it displayed. Great find! How Fun!

 

[Bramblefind]

Something else I just found regarding the Tudor Rose and the 7th Regiment-

http://www.royalfuzileers.com/tudor.html

The Tudor Rose


The Tudor Rose, depicted to the left and on each of the pages of this website, is the emblem of
the Royal Fuzileers. Derived from a combination of the red rose of York and the white rose of
Lancaster, this emblem was used by the royal Tudor dynasty to symbolize the return to amity
following the Wars of the Roses in the fifteenth century. It was a Royal badge during the reigns
of the Tudor kings, and as such was reproduced on the livery of Royal servants such as the
Yeoman Warders of the Tower of London and soldiers of the British Army.

During the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the Tudor Rose appeared as a unique symbol of
the Royal Fuzileers. It was depicted on the Regiment's colours (reproduced on the regimental
colours page), on clothing and equipment, and probably as a cap badge.

The emblem remained in use by the Royal Fuzileers until the Regiment was amalgamated with
several other Fusilier regiments in 1968 to form the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Any chance of editing out the repetitious quotes of this thread? When I get a few hours, Ill try to scroll back up lol.

 

[Bramblefind]

Any chance of editing out the repetitious quotes of this thread? When I get a few hours, Ill try to scroll back up lol.

Maybe you could just read and comment on my two posts. I worked really hard on them

 

[artyfacts]

Looks like a floral motif with what could be a crown on top and a pig on the side and mashed potatoes. Arty

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Any chance of editing out the repetitious quotes of this thread? When I get a few hours, Ill try to scroll back up lol.

Maybe you could just read and comment on my two posts. I worked really hard on them

Sorry Bramblefind I meant no disrespect. This was the first time I clicked on this thread. There are 88 replies and I havent read any yet.. I was trying to speed read...I think I need to start at the top.

 

[Bramblefind]

Any chance of editing out the repetitious quotes of this thread? When I get a few hours, Ill try to scroll back up lol.

Maybe you could just read and comment on my two posts. I worked really hard on them

Sorry Bramblefind I meant no disrespect. This was the first time I clicked on this thread. There are 88 replies and I havent read any yet.. I was trying to speed read...I think I need to start at the top.

No problem I just thought I found some really interesting info but I'm beginning to think maybe I am the only one who thinks that