Need Help?

[tomcat9605]

This is my first post. Please bear with me. I found this item on the Battle of Greensprings area, the British called it, the Battle of Jamestown Ford. Along with many American leadballs. Also a few British buttons. I have not cleaned it throughly yet. A crown with a pommel on top. Under the crown is some kind of flower. To the right is a unicorn with his horn bent, and broken legs. I'm sure there was a Lion on the left. You can see the broken edge where it was. Also the bottom shows where something had broke off. On the back one curved piece like and old buckle. Because of the green patina I believe it's made of copper, not sure though.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[Lucas]

Sheesh! I am just reading this thread for the first time.

Saw the rose, crown, and unicorn right off. Not a issue. That's what it is.

........... Finally, a pic of the back... and nobody said "bridle rosette?" :P

Doubt it is a grenadier cap plate, but maybe a musician's? They are not well studied, and weren't standard. Could be one of those "Col. Puddinhead ordered 1 doz fancy brass plates for musicians" deals. And no, the lyre is a 19th c. standard, not 18th.

Crown = Great Britain, rose = England, Unicorn + one of the supporters of the royal arms. Go back out and dig up the lion.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[Iron Patch]

Something else I just found regarding the Tudor Rose and the 7th Regiment-

http://www.royalfuzileers.com/tudor.html

The Tudor Rose


The Tudor Rose, depicted to the left and on each of the pages of this website, is the emblem of
the Royal Fuzileers. Derived from a combination of the red rose of York and the white rose of
Lancaster, this emblem was used by the royal Tudor dynasty to symbolize the return to amity
following the Wars of the Roses in the fifteenth century. It was a Royal badge during the reigns
of the Tudor kings, and as such was reproduced on the livery of Royal servants such as the
Yeoman Warders of the Tower of London and soldiers of the British Army.

During the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the Tudor Rose appeared as a unique symbol of
the Royal Fuzileers. It was depicted on the Regiment's colours (reproduced on the regimental
colours page), on clothing and equipment, and probably as a cap badge.

The emblem remained in use by the Royal Fuzileers until the Regiment was amalgamated with
several other Fusilier regiments in 1968 to form the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers

I guess all the praise is used up on this thread because that research looks better to me than anything posted so far. Heck even a picture showing a very similar device used by the 7th Regt.... and the time frame fits too!

 

[Bramblefind]

I guess all the praise is used up on this thread because that research looks better to me than anything posted so far. Heck even a picture showing a very similar device used by the 7th Regt.... and the time frame fits too!

Thank you for reading my posts!

I really did work hard on them

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I read it all Bramblefind and spent a couple hours studying British military history but I dont know enough about it to comment.

 

[Bramblefind]

I read it all Bramblefind and spent a couple hours studying British military history but I dont know enough about it to comment.

I appreciate you making the effort - thank you.

I'll try to explain again what I came up with in my research.

It has been mentioned and researched in this thread of the possibility of connecting this piece to the 33rd Regiment b/c the OP said there were their buttons found in the same general battle area as this piece and the 33rd was from the Yorkshire area of England where the Rose is one of the commonly used symbols of the regiments raised there.

But so far we haven't been able to come up with a contemporary badge or evidence that the 33rd used the Rose in the 18th Century.

I did find evidence that the 7th Regiment used a symbol - Crowned Rose - that looked like the piece. I also found evidence that shows - I think- that members of this regiment were at that battle site too.

Also a statement that the Tudor Rose was only used by the 7th Regiment at that time - but that probably needs verification.

So by my research I think this could possibly be tied to the 7th regiment.

 

[Goodyguy]

I did some image searches for "coat of arms symbols" and "family crest" and turned up several similar, but without clear detail on the one in question it's really hard to get a positive id. There are literally hundreds to sort through.

 

[DCMatt]

If you search Google Books for "Affair near James Island" you'll find Tarleton's account of the battle at Green Springs written in 1787. He was commanding the British Legion Cavalry there. He mentions the 43rd, 76th, 80th. and his cavalry. I found no mention of the 7th, 33rd, or 27th. Although we know from the button finds that the 33rd and 27th were there. Also, the 33rd foot reenactment group acknowledges the regiments action at Green Spring.

We know the 33rd was from Yorkshire and the later (much later) Yorkshire Regiment badges look like this one except without the rampant animals.

Equally as baffling as the regimental attribution is the original use of this item. What the heck was it? I've been trying to find anything with similar attachments or lugs. Nothing. Nada. The design and construction make it impractical for use as a belt buckle. Was it horse furniture? A breastplate or martingale? Crupper ornament? A valise badge?




DCMatt

P.S. I've posted a link to this thread on a forum for the 33rd Foot. I got a reply from someone who is passing info on to the regimental museum. We'll see what they have to say.

I read it all Bramblefind and spent a couple hours studying British military history but I dont know enough about it to comment.

I appreciate you making the effort - thank you.

I'll try to explain again what I came up with in my research.

It has been mentioned and researched in this thread of the possibility of connecting this piece to the 33rd Regiment b/c the OP said there were their buttons found in the same general battle area as this piece and the 33rd was from the Yorkshire area of England where the Rose is one of the commonly used symbols of the regiments raised there.

But so far we haven't been able to come up with a contemporary badge or evidence that the 33rd used the Rose in the 18th Century.

I did find evidence that the 7th Regiment used a symbol - Crowned Rose - that looked like the piece. I also found evidence that shows - I think- that members of this regiment were at that battle site too.

Also a statement that the Tudor Rose was only used by the 7th Regiment at that time - but that probably needs verification.

So by my research I think this could possibly be tied to the 7th regiment.

 

[Bramblefind]

I found no mention of the 7th...

That's because the 7th was in tatters after the Battle of Cowpens in early 1781. What remained of the 7th was absorbed into Cornwallis' army after that. But I don't think it would be a stretch to suggest they still retained their issued equipment of the 7th when they joined him.

Just an interesting coincidence that members of this regiment were in that area and I have found the only contemporary example that we have found yet to show the crowned rose and what appear to be supporters on a relic attached to this regiment.

I would guess we would need the opinion of an expert in these matters to have confidence in anything though.

I am interested to hear what kind of responses you get from that group

 

[Iron Patch]

If you search Google Books for "Affair near James Island" you'll find Tarleton's account of the battle at Green Springs written in 1787. He was commanding the British Legion Cavalry there. He mentions the 43rd, 76th, 80th. and his cavalry. I found no mention of the 7th, 33rd, or 27th. Although we know from the button finds that the 33rd and 27th were there. Also, the 33rd foot reenactment group acknowledges the regiments action at Green Spring.

We know the 33rd was from Yorkshire and the later (much later) Yorkshire Regiment badges look like this one except without the rampant animals.

Equally as baffling as the regimental attribution is the original use of this item. What the heck was it? I've been trying to find anything with similar attachments or lugs. Nothing. Nada. The design and construction make it impractical for use as a belt buckle. Was it horse furniture? A breastplate or martingale? Crupper ornament? A valise badge?




DCMatt

P.S. I've posted a link to this thread on a forum for the 33rd Foot. I got a reply from someone who is passing info on to the regimental museum. We'll see what they have to say.

I read it all Bramblefind and spent a couple hours studying British military history but I dont know enough about it to comment.

I appreciate you making the effort - thank you.

I'll try to explain again what I came up with in my research.

It has been mentioned and researched in this thread of the possibility of connecting this piece to the 33rd Regiment b/c the OP said there were their buttons found in the same general battle area as this piece and the 33rd was from the Yorkshire area of England where the Rose is one of the commonly used symbols of the regiments raised there.

But so far we haven't been able to come up with a contemporary badge or evidence that the 33rd used the Rose in the 18th Century.

I did find evidence that the 7th Regiment used a symbol - Crowned Rose - that looked like the piece. I also found evidence that shows - I think- that members of this regiment were at that battle site too.

Also a statement that the Tudor Rose was only used by the 7th Regiment at that time - but that probably needs verification.

So by my research I think this could possibly be tied to the 7th regiment.

Who was there and who wasn't is far from a deal breaker for one find. Many buttons have been found in Rev War camps from units that didn't even serve in the Rev War.

I gave the contact email above for someone that is just as good as anyone that you can contact in a museum, but if the poster is not interested that is his choice. Troiani would at least be able to say if the back resembles any type of early badge he has seen, and we could be talking 1770s, or even 60s, so it's not like it's going to be easy to find an example online. That said, even he could see it and say he didn't have a clue.

 

[tomcat9605]

No I'm very interested in all the info! I work really long hours and don't get to get on here alot, sorry. I do really appreicate everyone's effort. I hope the search has been fun for everyone else as it has been for me. I haven't had a chance to email that one guy yet, but I will!
Thanks

 

[Iron Patch]

No I'm very interested in all the info! I work really long hours and don't get to get on here alot, sorry. I do really appreicate everyone's effort. I hope the search has been fun for everyone else as it has been for me. I haven't had a chance to email that one guy yet, but I will!
Thanks

Writing him will pretty much end this in a hurry because if he doesn't know it's very unlikely you'll find out more. Just tell him the area you found it, and with what. It won't change his answer, but might catch his interest a little more.

 

[tomcat9605]

Ok ate dinner and told my wife she had to go to Walmart by herself!!! Hate going there anyway, and emailed chainshot. Hope he gets back soon!

 

[tomcat9605]

Well chainshot didn't know what it was. Hoping the head guy at Coloinal Williamsburg will?

 

[Iron Patch]

Well chainshot didn't know what it was. Hoping the head guy at Coloinal Williamsburg will?

The guy at Williamsburg probably writes chainshot for info., but it never hurts.

 

[tomcat9605]

Meet with Coloinal Williamsburg's head guy and he was very excited. Took abunch of pics and will get back with me.

 

[Dano Sverige]

I guess all the praise is used up on this thread because that research looks better to me than anything posted so far. Heck even a picture showing a very similar device used by the 7th Regt.... and the time frame fits too!

Thank you for reading my posts!

I really did work hard on them

Bramble - Over my time here on this site i've always noticed your dedicated research,much of which has turned a whole thread completely on it's head as you open our eyes as to why such and such an item is the baseplate from a pinball machine flipper arm...and NOT a sideplate from a 1812 era musket! (or similar lol.)
You're always appreciated!

However....there are things wrong with that certain piece of research. It's "fusiliers" not "fuzileers"! and he has his roses a$$ upwards. It's the Yorkshire rose which is white, and the Lancaster (Lancashire) rose which is red! The English rose is also the Tudor rose..which is red and white,symbolizing peace after the war.
Just clearing things up!

 

[Bramblefind]

Thanks Dano! For your nice words and for clearing that up! Very possibly other things are incorrect in that bit of research then.

Once I read what you wrote out I had a flashback and I totally should have caught the rose color reversal myself - after all I do recall playing this game a time or two when I was younger Now I'm going to put my geek back in the closet!

Kingmaker is based on the War of the Roses in English history, a time of civil war when two royal houses competed for the rightful throne. Players control factions using their military and political power to control and influence the royal heirs, supporting the heir in their control as king while trying to take down all of the other heirs.

 

[planejet42]

It looks like some kind of pig thing.

 

[Iron Patch]

I guess all the praise is used up on this thread because that research looks better to me than anything posted so far. Heck even a picture showing a very similar device used by the 7th Regt.... and the time frame fits too!

Thank you for reading my posts!

I really did work hard on them

However....there are things wrong with that certain piece of research. It's "fusiliers" not "fuzileers"!

Better tell that to Troiani.

 

[DCMatt]

I guess all the praise is used up on this thread because that research looks better to me than anything posted so far. Heck even a picture showing a very similar device used by the 7th Regt.... and the time frame fits too!

Thank you for reading my posts!

I really did work hard on them

However....there are things wrong with that certain piece of research. It's "fusiliers" not "fuzileers"!

Better tell that to Troiani.

Someone should also notify the 7th regiment. http://www.royalfuzileers.com/