The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[Bocaj]

Since everyone seems to agree that Wilkins was a fraud, why do you continue to reference his fake charts and frivolous writings?

Who is that everyone? Not me - even if I read the information of someone who believes in UFOs and Atlantis with a skeptical mind.

It seems in general a tendency here to label the charts and the people involved in extreme unfavorable terms. No one involved was a saint nor a devil. To simply dismiss the information of them leads nowhere. Same with the charts. They are probably not originals neither but why ignore them? We live in a world of imperfections and uncertainties.

 

[Randawg72]

Who is that everyone? Not me

Fair enough.
Present company excluded.

 

[Cryptid1990]

No arguments here. I wrote the same comment way back on page 1, post #5 of this thread. And didn't honest Mr Wilkins also claim:

View attachment 2221557
(Your post #707).

In his book, Wilkins implied that the charts were drawn by Captain Kidd.
A great many people missed the July 3rd 'Listener' newspaper article and thought the Mar-del charts were authentic documents.
Since everyone seems to agree that Wilkins was a fraud, why do you continue to reference his fake charts and frivolous writings?

It is obvious Wilkins drew the Mar Del maps since he added his name as a copyright. As for why his writings are important to solve the Kidd-Palmer maps, I already explained: Wilkins met Hubert Palmer in person and corresponded with him by letter. Wilkins' articles and his book Captain Kidd and His Skeleton Island quote Palmer's own words and provide useful information about when and how Palmer acquired the maps. You are not a serious researcher. From what I can tell, the only book you have read on the maps is Edmunds (1996) and (by admission) you made a few Google searches. Almost everything else you dismissed or are unfamiliar with. In contrast, I own a vast amount of literature on the maps including Wilkins' articles (many which are difficult to obtain since they are not digitised) and all of his treasure hunting books. You are not going to get close to solving the maps without access to all these sources.

 

[Cryptid1990]

Who is that everyone? Not me - even if I read the information of someone who believes in UFOs and Atlantis with a skeptical mind.

It seems in general a tendency here to label the charts and the people involved in extreme unfavorable terms. No one involved was a saint nor a devil. To simply dismiss the information of them leads nowhere. Same with the charts. They are probably not originals neither but why ignore them? We live in a world of imperfections and uncertainties.

The maps have attracted a lot of bad actors and conmen who set up dodgy maritime expeditions, with the promise of finding Captain Kidd's treasure and duping gullible people into donating or investing money. All of these expeditions failed; some ran into legal trouble and one expedition infamously resulted in a criminal investigation of fraud. This is discussed in a recently published e-book (see below) and in the thread I created. Over the past 25-years there have been dozens of websites created by an assortment of amateur researchers, weirdos and cranks (including dowsers, spiritualists and pirate cosplayers) claiming to have identified the island as well as found the spot of the treasure to dig up (I counted 36 (!) different island identifications.) Of course, nothing is ever found and most of these websites have been deleted but I have managed to access several on the Internet Archive.

Captain Kidd: A True Story of Treasure and Betrayal
Samuel Marquis [2025]

 

[Randawg72]

From what I can tell, the only book you have read on the maps is Edmunds (1996) and (by admission) you made a few Google searches. Almost everything else you dismissed or are unfamiliar with.

You're wrong. ..Again..
I own and have read several books and articles on Captain Kidd and have referenced (and corresponded with) authors George Edmunds, Richard Zacks, and Robert Ritchie, as well as posting a download of "The Trial of Captain Kidd" on this thread.
A decent researcher would do a simple fact check before making rude and libelous comments against others.
Wilkins is a confirmed liar and should not be trusted. I really don't care if his writings are the foundation of your studies or not. You are welcome to believe whoever you like.
I prefer to present facts rather than participate in a pissing contest. If you represent the best of the Kidd researchers, then Captain Kidd's treasure will remain safe and secure for another 300+ years.

 

[Cryptid1990]

You're wrong. ..Again..
I own and have read several books and articles on Captain Kidd and have referenced (and corresponded with) authors George Edmunds, Richard Zacks, and Robert Ritchie, as well as posting a download of "The Trial of Captain Kidd" on this thread.
A decent researcher would do a simple fact check before making rude and libelous comments against others.
Wilkins is a confirmed liar and should not be trusted. I really don't care if his writings are the foundation of your studies or not. You are welcome to believe whoever you like.
I prefer to present facts rather than participate in a pissing contest. If you represent the best of the Kidd researchers, then Captain Kidd's treasure will remain safe and secure for another 300+ years.

I said maps (i.e. the Kidd-Palmer maps), not Captain Kidd in general. Thanks for proving my point. The download you provided and two of the authors you mentioned never discussed the maps in their books and quite frankly have nothing to do with them. It is evident from your replies that you have not researched much about the maps; your knowledge is poor and now you have admitted to only reading general articles or books (e.g., Zacks, Ritchie) on Kidd. Prior to my early comments in this thread you did not even seem to realise the Hardy Chest and Morgan Chest came with pedigree notes of their provenance (albeit we now know these were fabricated). This is because by admission you have not read Wilkins (1935 [1937]), yet his book quotes those notes or reference the pedigrees. As I said, if you dismiss Wilkins you are ignoring useful information on the maps (such as ownership) and will miss crucial details. Another very important source is G. J. Bath's Maps, Mystery and Interpretation. These quote from Wilkins unpublished writings including his letters to Hubert Palmer, as well as Palmer's private letters to Wilkins and letters by Arthur Hill Cutler. However, you have made it clear you do not own this literature and showed a lack of interest. In 1951, a forensic report was published on one of the maps; you were unfamiliar with it until I mentioned it (which again proves your lack of knowledge) and your bizarre comment on that report was to dismiss it as having been made by a local bobby.

I prefer to present facts rather than participate in a pissing contest. If you represent the best of the Kidd researchers, then Captain Kidd's treasure will remain safe and secure for another 300+ years.

You literally ignored facts that contradict your erroneous beliefs over the past dozen or so pages. And there is no "Captain Kidd's treasure" (unless you mean the small cache of treasure already dug up on Gardiners Island). The so-called Kidd-Palmer maps are a hoax. 37 pages and you have not posted a shred of evidence the maps are authentic. Your first post:

I believe the treasure exists, and that the "Kidd/Palmer" charts are authentic, and I do Not believe the treasure is located anywhere near the America's nor the China Sea.

 

[Bocaj]

The maps have attracted a lot of bad actors and conmen who set up dodgy maritime expeditions, with the promise of finding Captain Kidd's treasure and duping gullible people into donating or investing money. All of these expeditions failed; some ran into legal trouble and one expedition infamously resulted in a criminal investigation of fraud. This is discussed in a recently published e-book (see below) and in the thread I created. Over the past 25-years there have been dozens of websites created by an assortment of amateur researchers, weirdos and cranks (including dowsers, spiritualists and pirate cosplayers) claiming to have identified the island as well as found the spot of the treasure to dig up (I counted 36 (!) different island identifications.) Of course, nothing is ever found and most of these websites have been deleted but I have managed to access several on the Internet Archive.

Captain Kidd: A True Story of Treasure and Betrayal
Samuel Marquis [2025]

View attachment 2222486

It does attract all kind of strange characters but not all of them are ill intended. Treasure hunting is a high risk business and it tempt people to relinquish the critical approach needed in any kind of enterprise.
For Bownlie I only found this:

In any case don't expect some normal person to go on a treasure hunt - "weirdos and cranks" is what you will always get. People try and even if they fail I think at least some deserve respect for what they tried to archive. I admit I am taken back with that somehow extreme dismissive tone. Religions are based on lot less credible evidence then the Palmer Maps and still very respected people believe in them.

 

[Cryptid1990]

It does attract all kind of strange characters but not all of them are ill intended. Treasure hunting is a high risk business and it tempt people to relinquish the critical approach needed in any kind of enterprise.
For Bownlie I only found this:

View attachment 2222700​

In any case don't expect some normal person to go on a treasure hunt - "weirdos and cranks" is what you will always get. People try and even if they fail I think at least some deserve respect for what they tried to archive. I admit I am taken back with that somehow extreme dismissive tone. Religions are based on lot less credible evidence then the Palmer Maps and still very respected people believe in them.

The online treasure hunting community of the Kidd-Palmer maps is very similar to the Atlantis community. As I noted in one of my earlier comments, I have tried to keep count of how many different location hypotheses there are for the island/treasure spot on the Kidd-Palmer maps, so far I have counted 36 different islands including Hon Tre Lon, Koh Matlang, Oak Island, Nantucket, and the Providenciales, to name a few. There is no doubt dozens more proposed locations and Randawg72 (see his first comment in this thread I quoted above) will add to this extensive and ridiculous list. How many Atlantis location hypotheses are there? Sprague de Camp (1954, 2nd ed. 1970) in his appendix of his book Lost Continents compiled around a hundred and there is probably now close to a thousand, almost comical. Suffice to say, I do have a rather low-opinion of amateur researchers who take this approach and I touched upon this in a comment in the other thread.

 

[BennyV]

Map stuff is getting a little long in the tooth. Should probably be a separate thread.

 

[Blak bart]

37 pages !! Let's go !! There is no shortage of research here !! Have shovel, will travel, proven record of finding treasures, when do we dig, and which spot first !!🤙🫡☠️

 

[Blak bart]

Or, we do the popcorn 🍿 arm chair thing and settle into personal attacks and opinion based arguing ?? Not sure how many more pages this can go ? Always happens once all the evidence is presented in these legends. To prove the legends one must get on site in the bush and find the evidence, track the clues, and do some searching....so let's here where each opinion based hunter would start first ?? Pretend like you guys have million dollar budgets and a killer expedition type boat, and all the time in the world to do this....which island and where do you start on the island, and what are you looking for in the way of marks, clues, evidence etc. How do you explore each site, and is it even possible. My method is to see in person, and explore as much and as often as possible. How would you experts approach 🤔 an expedition. Go check your awsome maps boys !!

 

[Bocaj]

Or, we do the popcorn 🍿 arm chair thing and settle into personal attacks and opinion based arguing ?? Not sure how many more pages this can go ? Always happens once all the evidence is presented in these legends. To prove the legends one must get on site in the bush and find the evidence, track the clues, and do some searching....so let's here where each opinion based hunter would start first ?? Pretend like you guys have million dollar budgets and a killer expedition type boat, and all the time in the world to do this....which island and where do you start on the island, and what are you looking for in the way of marks, clues, evidence etc. How do you explore each site, and is it even possible. My method is to see in person, and explore as much and as often as possible. How would you experts approach 🤔 an expedition. Go check your awsome maps boys !!

Well we could take the ships and sail the seas from the South Atlantic to the Indian Ocean. I am all for it and also have the boats almost ready. What I do not have is any assurance of getting rich.

It will certainly a memorable adventure to sail the "Third Pirate Round" as I call it. There are plenty of bunks free for any pirate who likes to join.

 

[Blak bart]

Well we could take the ships and sail the seas from the South Atlantic to the Indian Ocean. I am all for it and also have the boats almost ready. What I do not have is any assurance of getting rich.

It will certainly a memorable adventure to sail the "Third Pirate Round" as I call it. There are plenty of bunks free for any pirate who likes to join.

Yup...this would be epic, and....the adventures alone would be the treasure win lose or draw !!🤙🤙🤙

 

[Blak bart]

Which island first ?? How do you get there ?? Sailing i would think would be cheapest?? Maybe a large catamaran??

 

[Bocaj]

Which island first ?? How do you get there ?? Sailing i would think would be cheapest?? Maybe a large catamaran??

The only way to find anything would be to step into their shoes, live their lives as much as possible to understand them. So its a traditional square rigged vessel to use.

 

[BennyV]

The only way to find anything would be to step into their shoes, live their lives as much as possible to understand them. So its a traditional square rigged vessel to use.

Do I get a parrot and an eye patch?

 

[Bocaj]

Do I get a parrot and an eye patch?

Well you can try to catch a monkey and tame it. If you bring a parrot with you I will enlist it too.
🦜🐒

For the eye patch I wouldn't wish for it as on a pirate ship medical care is an issue and its easy to loose an eye with some tropical sickness.

 

[Crow]

Well we could take the ships and sail the seas from the South Atlantic to the Indian Ocean. I am all for it and also have the boats almost ready. What I do not have is any assurance of getting rich.

It will certainly a memorable adventure to sail the "Third Pirate Round" as I call it. There are plenty of bunks free for any pirate who likes to join.

Hello Bocaj

All jokes aside.

I admire anyone having a go. After many years treasure hunting land and sea all over globe. I understand the hunger. .Just going there is an adventure in itself. Finding treasure is bonus.

There are no guarantees in life. Even waking up in the morning is blessing. With treasure hunting its even worse. Anything can happen for better or for worse. life is gamble. everything we do in life is calculated risk. If you expecting a big payoff you might end up disappointed. Yet if you only expect going there in spirit of adventure and then maybe finding treasure is the absolute icing on the cake.

So be very careful who you crew with. Because I can tell you in the deep ocean you can really learn about the true nature of the people around you. Another thing is when you take other people along there expectations may not align with yours. So you clear honest and realistic in what the goals are for the voyage and expedition. I have seen many a fine expedition dissolve into petty bickering, fractured egos and personal differences. Be very careful who you invite as an open invitation to hangers on can spell trouble. And everyone you take along must be reading from the same page.

Have you done long ocean transits before? What type of sailing vessel do you have? Do you dive? And if you find treasure what next how do you convert in liquid assets? You do not need to answer me or anyone else here with those questions but only to yourself.


Crow

 

[Cryptid1990]

More proof the Kidd-Palmer maps are a hoax. This information seems to have been overlooked by Edmunds (2016), although to his credit Gjb briefly mentions it in one of his books. This information has not been posted online before.

I managed to gain access at the National Archives, to a police report on one of the Kidd-Palmer maps. This report was separate to the 1951 forensic report by the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory (South Wales and Monmouth Area) I already mentioned, however, it appears the latter was made on behalf of the Metropolitan Police Laboratory who made the separate report, so both are related and appear in the same file bundle at the National Archives. The Metropolitan Police Laboratory determined the words "China Sea" and the drawn compass on the map were inked over modern pencil marks. I am not sure what the copyright of this letter is (a copy is now in my possession) so I cautiously will not upload a scan of it online but will quote the relevant part of it which I think is justified under UK's fair dealing exception:

The Metropolitan Police Laboratory
New Scotland Yard
London

9th August, 1951

The words 'China Sea' and the diagram indicating the points of the compass in red have obviously been inked in over pencil marks. In modern black lead (i.e. graphite) pencils clay is incorporated in the lead it would be a relatively simple matter to demonstrate the presence of this substance in the pencil marks on the questioned document.

The Kidd-Palmer maps were evidently made in the early 20th century (most likely by Arthur Hill-Cutler), although were drawn on centuries-older parchments (to try to pass them off as authentic 17th/early 18th century documents which is not unusual for a literary hoax). The idea the maps date to the time of Captain Kidd has been falsified based on the Metropolitan Police Laboratory report (see above) and the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory report (I previously quoted) plus there is the fabricated pedigree notes of the Hardy/Morgan Chests.

 

[Cryptid1990]

Map stuff is getting a little long in the tooth. Should probably be a separate thread.

The thread was made specifically to discuss the Kidd-Palmer maps and that is primarily what this thread has been about so is on topic.

The first comment by Randawg72:

I have a great interest in the treasure "Lodged" by Captain Kidd. I believe the treasure exists, and that the "Kidd/Palmer" charts are authentic, and I do Not believe the treasure is located anywhere near the America's nor the China Sea. I may (or may not) have solved some of the clues in this 328 year old mystery, and am interested in the opinions and input of like minded treasure hunters.

Unfortunately, this thread was not made in good faith. Randawg72 rejects or dismisses the evidence/proof the maps are not authentic and displays the mindset of a flat-earther. He will reject anything which conflicts with his true belief the maps are authentic and his beliefs are the opposite of reality. Not only is this clear from his comments but I was told this by multiple posters already familiar with his forum antics, that said, I stuck around to post stuff relevant to the maps (such as the police/forensic reports) and found this thread a useful place to do it.